Donald Trump shows his true colours

 
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I reckon the most interesting aspects are that Pence was the one who called in the National Guard, and that Betty DeVos wanted the 25th Amendment activated to remove Trump.

I get the feeling that because it was only 3 weeks until the Biden inauguration, they would hold their fire. Ie. Only use it if Trump refused to leave the White House...

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  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

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What’s the evidence that Trump was fully orchestrating the riot?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Trump certainly inspired and egged-on the insurrectionists.

The Goose is cooked.
  lsrailfan Minister for Railways

Location: Somewhere you're not
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What’s the evidence that Trump was fully orchestrating the riot?
Sonofagunzel
The evidence is clear, he clearly did not want to accept that the election was won by Biden, he kept on calling it BS and a total fabrication, as I said, this wound up members of the Far Extremist Right, and thus they acted,

*if he wasn't fully responsible for the riots, he certainly was partly responsible for them, maybe a poor choice of wording on my part. *
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
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What’s the evidence that Trump was fully orchestrating the riot?
The evidence is clear, he clearly did not want to accept that the election was won by Biden, he kept on calling it BS and a total fabrication, as I said, this wound up members of the Far Extremist Right, and thus they acted,

*if he wasn't fully responsible for the riots, he certainly was partly responsible for them, maybe a poor choice of wording on my part. *
lsrailfan
Yup, he stood there and said told them to go there and he will be with them and in the lead up to that day he inferred there would be change.

Did he actually say riot and enter the building? no. But he promoted it and then once they were stired up he left them leadersless.
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

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What’s the evidence that Trump was fully orchestrating the riot?
The evidence is clear, he clearly did not want to accept that the election was won by Biden, he kept on calling it BS and a total fabrication, as I said, this wound up members of the Far Extremist Right, and thus they acted,

*if he wasn't fully responsible for the riots, he certainly was partly responsible for them, maybe a poor choice of wording on my part. *
lsrailfan
Yes, I agree with that.

I doubt whether he intended to stir up violent protests, and certainly not a violent insurrection (if that’s what this was), but his actions and statements clearly and recklessly contributed to what happened.

Just like the Democrats did with BLM. Not that this excuses Trump.
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

Trump certainly inspired and egged-on the insurrectionists.

The Goose is cooked.
Carnot
Egged on implies that he deliberately inspired the violence. What’s the evidence for that?

If you or someone else hee is going to say “look at his speech on the day”, I will say yes, but look at the speeches of every other politician before and since - they are filled with the same type of rhetoric and imagery. I don’t think his speech, stupid as it was, is evidence of incitement to violence. I read it as an incitement to protest, but not to riot, and certainly not to forcibly take over.

I will also say “look at the timing”. The timing of the speech and the commencement of the violence don’t match. The people who started the riot were not at the Trump rally. Also look at the timing of his calls for peace on the day after the rioting started - the calls for calm started IIRC only about 30 minutes after the Capitol was breached. Too long? Perhaps, but it’s not true that he did nothing to quell the violence.

I’d also like to know why security and police were so unprepared and slow to respond with reinforcements once the situation began to unfold. Certainly IIRC the evidence I am aware of points towards Trump giving orders in the days leading up to the riots to make whatever resources available as were necessary or requested to maintain security and keep the peace.  Trump, however, didnt have jurisdiction over the police nor responsibility for Capitol building security, I believe.  So what’s the deal here?  I doubt we will ever find out.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Read the story.

What’s the evidence that Trump was fully orchestrating the riot?
The evidence is clear, he clearly did not want to accept that the election was won by Biden, he kept on calling it BS and a total fabrication, as I said, this wound up members of the Far Extremist Right, and thus they acted,

*if he wasn't fully responsible for the riots, he certainly was partly responsible for them, maybe a poor choice of wording on my part. *
Yes, I agree with that.

I doubt whether he intended to stir up violent protests, and certainly not a violent insurrection (if that’s what this was), but his actions and statements clearly and recklessly contributed to what happened.

Just like the Democrats did with BLM. Not that this excuses Trump.
Sonofagunzel
Not completely sure I agree

His tweets before indicated "change", come to Washington.

On the day he lied to those people that he would go down there to the Capitol with them, he didn't.

Once the riot was underway, he refused to get involved,


If he didn't intent for this to happen, he should have got involved to bring it to a halt faster.
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

The evidence is clear, he clearly did not want to accept that the election was won by Biden, he kept on calling it BS and a total fabrication, as I said, this wound up members of the Far Extremist Right, and thus they acted,

*if he wasn't fully responsible for the riots, he certainly was partly responsible for them, maybe a poor choice of wording on my part. *
Yes, I agree with that.

I doubt whether he intended to stir up violent protests, and certainly not a violent insurrection (if that’s what this was), but his actions and statements clearly and recklessly contributed to what happened.

Just like the Democrats did with BLM. Not that this excuses Trump.
Not completely sure I agree

His tweets before indicated "change", come to Washington.
RTT_Rules
I don't see any incitement in that - sounds like a call to come to a rally or protest.  What did the tweets say that constituted incitement to violence?

On the day he lied to those people that he would go down there to the Capitol with them, he didn't.
RTT_Rules
That he didn't go is clear, but is entirely explained by the fact you don't put a President in the middle of an unruly protest that could, and did, turn violent.  What's the evidence that he never intended to go?  For example, would his security detail have had to have been given advance warning to prepare, and no advance warning was given? I'm willing to believe he had no intention of going down there with them, but I'd want evidence before I'd draw that conclusion.

Once the riot was underway, he refused to get involved,

If he didn't intent for this to happen, he should have got involved to bring it to a halt faster.
RTT_Rules
I assume you mean he refused to call for calm.  That's not true, he did, several times, starting about 30 minutes after the Capitol building was breached.  Not soon enough?  Maybe.  Would sooner have made a difference? I doubt it - he'd already called for the protest to be peaceful in his rally that morning.

I'm willing to believe he intended for the violence to occur and/or was happy about it when it did.  But I want to see evidence, not just politically driven accusation and theatre.

I'd even go further and say that that I want the inquiry to find the smoking gun that proves Trump personally arranged a violent insurrection, and therefore prevent Trump from running again (or at least destroy him politically).

It would give De Santis a clear shot at the presidency.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
40-year high inflation, stock market tanking, gasoline and energy costs through the roof -

But look over there!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Trump certainly inspired and egged-on the insurrectionists.

The Goose is cooked.
Egged on implies that he deliberately inspired the violence. What’s the evidence for that?

If you or someone else hee is going to say “look at his speech on the day”, I will say yes, but look at the speeches of every other politician before and since - they are filled with the same type of rhetoric and imagery. I don’t think his speech, stupid as it was, is evidence of incitement to violence. I read it as an incitement to protest, but not to riot, and certainly not to forcibly take over.

I will also say “look at the timing”. The timing of the speech and the commencement of the violence don’t match. The people who started the riot were not at the Trump rally. Also look at the timing of his calls for peace on the day after the rioting started - the calls for calm started IIRC only about 30 minutes after the Capitol was breached. Too long? Perhaps, but it’s not true that he did nothing to quell the violence.

I’d also like to know why security and police were so unprepared and slow to respond with reinforcements once the situation began to unfold. Certainly IIRC the evidence I am aware of points towards Trump giving orders in the days leading up to the riots to make whatever resources available as were necessary or requested to maintain security and keep the peace.  Trump, however, didnt have jurisdiction over the police nor responsibility for Capitol building security, I believe.  So what’s the deal here?  I doubt we will ever find out.
Incitement to protest is one thing, but a mob without a leader can do anything. He knew that, he said he would be there, he wasn't, when he was advised it was underway, he did nothing to stop it.

Security and police have never in the past had to manage or exposed to a threat of a large riot. No President in modern history has told so many people of such a redneck background to go match on Capitol to potentially stop voting on an election result that will see the opposition to take power.

Trump was told by his own son as well as I believe the VP to get involved, he choose not to.

If it was  you or I that gave that pre riot speech, then yes its not our fault. But when the PResident does so under those circumstances then blind Freddy can see what the intent was.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The evidence is clear, he clearly did not want to accept that the election was won by Biden, he kept on calling it BS and a total fabrication, as I said, this wound up members of the Far Extremist Right, and thus they acted,

*if he wasn't fully responsible for the riots, he certainly was partly responsible for them, maybe a poor choice of wording on my part. *
Yes, I agree with that.

I doubt whether he intended to stir up violent protests, and certainly not a violent insurrection (if that’s what this was), but his actions and statements clearly and recklessly contributed to what happened.

Just like the Democrats did with BLM. Not that this excuses Trump.
Not completely sure I agree

His tweets before indicated "change", come to Washington.
I don't see any incitement in that - sounds like a call to come to a rally or protest.  What did the tweets say that constituted incitement to violence?

On the day he lied to those people that he would go down there to the Capitol with them, he didn't.
That he didn't go is clear, but is entirely explained by the fact you don't put a President in the middle of an unruly protest that could, and did, turn violent.  What's the evidence that he never intended to go?  For example, would his security detail have had to have been given advance warning to prepare, and no advance warning was given? I'm willing to believe he had no intention of going down there with them, but I'd want evidence before I'd draw that conclusion.

Once the riot was underway, he refused to get involved,

If he didn't intent for this to happen, he should have got involved to bring it to a halt faster.
I assume you mean he refused to call for calm.  That's not true, he did, several times, starting about 30 minutes after the Capitol building was breached.  Not soon enough?  Maybe.  Would sooner have made a difference? I doubt it - he'd already called for the protest to be peaceful in his rally that morning.

I'm willing to believe he intended for the violence to occur and/or was happy about it when it did.  But I want to see evidence, not just politically driven accusation and theatre.

I'd even go further and say that that I want the inquiry to find the smoking gun that proves Trump personally arranged a violent insurrection, and therefore prevent Trump from running again (or at least destroy him politically).

It would give De Santis a clear shot at the presidency.
Sonofagunzel
You can play that card when you are a no body, but not the US President with his history.

- He declared victory during the vote count and demanded counting to stop
- He ran a two month extensive campaign to over turn the election trying everry trick in the legal book and more.
- Made personal enquiries to implement martial law, but didn't follow up.
- Participated in multiple meetings with white house and Republican staff to over turn the election
- Tweeted "Big Protest in DC Jan 6th, Be there it will be wild!" Define wild, I think most people know what he hinted at
- Was fully aware of a growing protest movement of redneck groups who were planning to march on capitol and the back chatter that was involved over 1 million tweets of storming the Capitol and viloence against Congress, Pence and Police, etc etc etc

At the Rally
- Trump called for Pence to overturn the election, yet he knew this was not within his consitutional power. That was just the start of lies designed to incite the crowd.
- Trump's words suggested protesters they had the power to stop Biden
- He told them he would be there, but then didn't go there. As a leader, when you incite a crowd but then abandon it, you are still responsible for the outcome.
- Trump said, "We can't let that happen" and suggested Biden would be an "illegitimate president", what do you think this means or implies?
- Trump denounced Representative Liz Cheney, saying, "We've got to get rid of the weak Congresspeople, the ones that aren't any good, the Liz Cheneys of the world".He called upon his supporters to "fight much harder" against "bad people"; told the crowd that "you are allowed to go by very different rules," said that his supporters were "not going to take it any longer"; framed the moment as the last stand, suggested that Pence and other Republican officials put themselves in danger by accepting Biden's victory; and told the crowd he would march with them to the Capitol (although he did not do so)
- During Trump's speech, his supporters chanted "Take the Capitol," "Taking the Capitol right now," "Invade the Capitol," "Storm the Capitol" and "Fight for Trump"

- The speechs started at 9am, The Proud Boys group left the rally at just before 11am to head to Capitol 2km away. Thats 30min walk. Trump arrived at noon. Before he finished his speech, at 12:30 some other started towards the capitol.

- At 12:53, the first rioters stormed through barriers

- At 1pm hundreds of Trump supporters clashed with Capitol security at the 2nd line of defense.

- At 1:12, Trump returned to the White House

- At 2pm despite watching the events on TV, he was still calling Senators to make more objections

- At 2:47 Trump finally Trump tweeted, "Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!" Note: Its been stated he had to be convinced to add "stay peaceful"

- At 3:25, Trump tweeted, "I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue", but he refused to call upon the crowd to disperse


So in summary
- Trump's lead up comments and actions in the two months prior was designed to incite action
- Trump new of the level of support he was getting
- Trump said lets go protest, then left the rednecks to their own devises. It was too dangerous for him, then HELLO warning sign
- Once the violence started he did not actively tell rioters to stand down.
- He made no attempt to attend
- Even as his supporters fled and were targetted by FBI and issued "no fly" directives, they themselves often said. We protested for what, he said he would be there, he said we would take the govt back.


Therefore the riots are 100% Trump's fault for inciting and 100% his fault for not getting involved to stop it.
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

Would you say the same about the BLM riots?

Thought not. Transparent, principles-free partisanship.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Would you say the same about the BLM riots?

Thought not. Transparent, principles-free partisanship.
Sonofagunzel
No single instigator for riots in relation to the BLM issues.
Not even relevant.
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

No single instigator, true. It was half the Democratic Party leadership and their legacy media cheer squad.

And it went on for months.

So agreed, not the same thing at all.
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

If anyone is interested in my take on this (and let’s face it, why would you be?), I set out my analysis of the Jan 6 riots in this post. I haven’t seen anything that changes my view yet.

Short version - Trump was an idiot and used dangerous rhetoric. But no worse than any of his Democrat counterparts had been doing for months. It was wrong and reckless when they did it, and it was wrong and reckless when he did it. Either both sides are instigators of political violence, or neither of them are.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Would you say the same about the BLM riots?

Thought not. Transparent, principles-free partisanship.
Sonofagunzel
Who knows, who cares, we are not talking about BLM!
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

Would you say the same about the BLM riots?

Thought not. Transparent, principles-free partisanship.
Who knows, who cares, we are not talking about BLM!
RTT_Rules
Yes, exactly. You’ve proved my point.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Banned
Yup, he stood there and said told them to go there and he will be with them and in the lead up to that day he inferred there would be change.
”RTT_Rules”
He did not. He implied that there would be change. Infer is the most frequently misused word in the lexicon.
  BaysideManny Assistant Commissioner

Would you say the same about the BLM riots?

Thought not. Transparent, principles-free partisanship.
Who knows, who cares, we are not talking about BLM!
RTT_Rules
No point preaching to the converted, RTT. As regards to the BLM. Sure that movement has its less than savory people, who are out to make trouble. And some in the upper-hierarchy are anti-Semitic, which is frankly disgusting. A reason why I baulk at joining the organization. But the vast majority just want to be treated with respect. The basic theme of BLM is thus;

The global organization seeks to eliminate white supremacy, build local power, and affirm Black humanity.

If @Sonofagunzel has a problem with that, well . . .

No doubt that the Democrats have their awful people. Manchin and Sinema comes to mind and there are plenty of others who are awful. Tulsi Gabbard can go jump as far as I am concerned. But if he thinks that the Democrats have anyone like Boebert, Cawthorn, Taylor-Green, Cruz and Gaetz, he has drunk the kool-aid. Racist, Misogynist, Anti LGTBI goons. The GOP is full of them.

What he is saying about the Democrats being as bad as the GOP who have absolutely zero policies. (Its all about the culture wars, man) is as utterly nonsensical as this passage about Ferdinand Marcos Snr (Ex Philippines President) and Michael Jordan.

On December 24 1969, The Marcos Family was in Wilmington, NC to celebrate the holidays.
President Ferdinand Marcos was walking in a park and he saw a skinny child begging for food.
He gave him a whole box of nutribun and said "Bring this with you child, someday you will grow
up to be someone important.

The kid grew up to be Michael Jordan.

Utter BS right? Rather like the GOP.


Mannie
  BaysideManny Assistant Commissioner

No single instigator, true. It was half the Democratic Party leadership and their legacy media cheer squad.

And it went on for months.

So agreed, not the same thing at all.
Sonofagunzel
Of course it isn't. Urging people to march against injustice and systemic racism. On the other hand, the great Orange one telling people to march to the seat of Government because he is pi$$ed with the election result.

Yeah certainly isn't, is it?


Mannie
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Yup, he stood there and said told them to go there and he will be with them and in the lead up to that day he inferred there would be change.
He did not. He implied that there would be change. Infer is the most frequently misused word in the lexicon.
Valvegear
Well corrected
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Would you say the same about the BLM riots?

Thought not. Transparent, principles-free partisanship.
Who knows, who cares, we are not talking about BLM!
Yes, exactly. You’ve proved my point.
Sonofagunzel
What, that you went to change topic to prove something irrelevent.
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

No point preaching to the converted, RTT.
BaysideManny
I don't think you know what that expression means, Manny. You're suggesting that I already agree with him.  That's the opposite of what you meant.

No doubt that the Democrats have their awful people. Manchin and Sinema comes to mind and there are plenty of others who are awful. Tulsi Gabbard can go jump as far as I am concerned.
BaysideManny
They're the good ones!  At least by comparison.  And typical of rabid lefties to think someone's awful just because they don't agree with them on absolutely everything.

But if he thinks that the Democrats have anyone like Boebert, Cawthorn, Taylor-Green, Cruz and Gaetz, he has drunk the kool-aid. Racist, Misogynist, Anti LGTBI goons. The GOP is full of them.
BaysideManny
Yet every time you try to prove it, you fail.  

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending these people.  They've probably done and said terrible things.  Most politicians are at best deeply unpleasant and flawed individuals - I don't like any of them.  

But don't let that get in the way of your response, which will undoubtedly be "Boebert said this" or "Taylor-Green said that", or something about how I love them or the GOP.  The former is beside the point and the latter is wrong.  But you've never been one to let silly things like facts interfere in the formation of your opinions, and even when a fact manages to slip through, you misunderstand its significance.

Anyway he thinks that everyone who marches at BLM rallies are Antifa stooges, with absolutely zero proof, but hey-ho.
BaysideManny
Where did I say that?  Once again you demonstrate that your views bear no correspondence to reality.  

And you still can't tell the difference between a peaceful protest and a riot.

What he is saying about the Democrats being as bad as the GOP who have absolutely zero policies.
BaysideManny
Really? No policies? Why do you hate them so much then?

(Its all about the culture wars, man) is as utterly nonsensical
BaysideManny
So you pretend they have no other policies, and then you criticise them for having no other policies?

I don't think the GOP is nearly as fixated on the culture war as you are Manny.

as this passage about Ferdinand Marcos Snr (Ex Philippines President) and Michael Jordan.

On December 24 1969, The Marcos Family was in Wilmington, NC to celebrate the holidays.
President Ferdinand Marcos was walking in a park and he saw a skinny child begging for food.
He gave him a whole box of nutribun and said "Bring this with you child, someday you will grow
up to be someone important.

The kid grew up to be Michael Jordan.

Utter BS right? Rather like the GOP.
BaysideManny
That argument was so relevant and compelling that I now agree with you about everything.

Oh, Manny.  I'd admire you for your tenacity, but the fact that you keep trying is probably more due to forgetfulness and delusion than any grit or determination.
  lsrailfan Minister for Railways

Location: Somewhere you're not
It really does not matter does it, at the end of the day, Trump stands condemned for inciting the Capitol Riots.

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