Hey, it's time for another creation/evolution thread!

 
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
i am not a religious nut
it also say in the bible some ware  that to god a day is but a thousand years and a thousand years but a day
"murray"

Well that cancels out doesn't it? You can make the days of creation into 1000 years with the first half of the verse, but then you have to use the second half to make them back into days.

seen a interesting badge on the back of a car yesterday the christian fish sigh that had grown legs and had darwin written in the body
"murray"


Very Happy

any way  i think the aliens  experimented with a ape Wink
"murray"

How did the apes get here then?

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  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
They evolved obviously,the ignorant and stupid would beg to differ.




  chers Wobert
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
question for JoM / MJJA

(still on topic, but just after some information)

What is your opinion on SCIENCE ?
"chrisr001"

Time for another cartoon:


in the context of ......
we would not have the lifestyle we have now without scientific research
no petrol, no electricity, no TRAINS  Shocked , no medical system (and thus no people living to 100)
"chrisr001"

Ah, I have to take that one up. Before the Flood people used to live to 500 or more most of the time. Even after that Moses and Joshua lived to over 100.

the list goes on and on, but what is your responce to the original question ?

thanks
chris
"chrisr001"

In short, we have no problem. As Galileo said, if God gave us brains, He must have meant us to think with them. He said that in the context of scientific research and invention.
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
I think deepblue is a little bit off the planet telling TLD™ that if he is not tolerant of Christians telling him how to live his life, then he is not tolerant of Christianity at all.
"574M"
It's perfectly valid if that is a core aspect of Christianity.
"John of Melbourne"

that is a core aspect of missiology, JOM. Not one of the core teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Look to your Q source, there is no missiological sources in there.
"574M"

Jesus' parting words to the apostles were "Go into all the world and make disciples" ie convince people to become Christian. It's a core teaching all right.

No one has the right to tell anyone else how to live their lives and what values to live by. We all have to work it out for ourselves.
"574M"
According to whom?  Or is this just your opinion?  Because, by saying that I don't have the right to tell anyone else how to live their lives, you are telling me how to live my life.
"John of Melbourne"

Behavoiur reveals choices. Choices are based on values. Values are teleological, ipso facto, one chooses ontic good, not ontic evil. Therefore, yad bhavati, tad bhavatum. What you feel is good for you, you choose. you choose what will serve you and your beliefs.
"574M"

And what if what you feel is good for you is in fact not good? If I know that, it's my responsibility to tell you so, because otherwise, I'm partially responsible for your consequences.

I am not telling you how to live your life, I am saying you make choices. Choices will attribute good to you; you don't choose evil, you choose beliefs, behaviours, attitudes and your food in accord with what you think, know and understand to be for your benefit.
"574M"

OK let's take food as a parallel. I'm not telling you what you should eat, but if I see you living on nothing but hot chips with tons of grease and salt, I should at least warn you that it's going to cause you big health problems later on.

The worst thing any religion can do is have someone live in fear of death of eternal suffering, punishment and damnation. People should not die with fear, they should die with love.
"574M"
Perhaps that's why Christians tell others the good news that, by believing in Jesus, you can avoid that eternal suffering.  Then, and only then, can they die with love, rather than the fear of eternal suffering, the fear of returning as a pig, or whatever.
"John of Melbourne"

Well, human being running in the human race with horse blinkers on, your good news is not the only good news. Its good news for you people who believe it to be so. And its bad news, telling people there is eternal suffering.
"574M"

OK, so there's good news and bad news, same as a doctor says. The doctor has the facts (direct from a personal investigation) and is responsible to tell you about them and recommend a course of treatment. In the case of religion, we have the facts (direct from the Creator) and are responsible to tell everyone about them and recommend a solution which costs nothing.

Of course you can get a second opinion if you want, and believe someone else rather than us, but when doing so, look at the doctor's qualifications and weigh up why you believe them not us. Is it because the medicine tastes better? Or because the doctor makes the diagnosis sound less like a dry sermon? I hope you can see the point I'm trying to make here.

Do you really believe this?

Who has come back from the dead and told you what is over there on the other side?
"574M"

Jesus.

Have you met anyone who has told you that?

Do share.

Tell, so we may know and understand.
"574M"

It's all in His autobiography.

However, if you tell me that based on your beliefs on what is contained in the scriptures of your religion, then you are a human being running the human race with horse blinkers on, and the horse blinkers are your beliefs.
"574M"

What's the difference between an out-of-body experience and a Bible? Both can be forged. Or imagined.
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
I dont have to believe facts.
Facts speak for themselves.
Ipso facto est.
Do you have to believe in the sun?
The sun is there.

Do you have to believe in the moon?
no, the moon is there, for all to see.
"574M"

The Theory of Evolution is not a fact. It has never been observed. It is a theory.

kindly read the following,


COL I : 12-20

...
He is the image of the invisible God,
the lirst-born of all creation,
for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible.
All things were created
through him and for him.
He is before all things,
and in him all things hold together.

...

For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell,

...


That says, inter alia,  that all of creation, is created in Christ, for Christ, and through Christ. All things, according to Christianity, are in Christ. Christ, and the Father, are not somewhere else.
"574M"

Wrong. It's saying that Jesus was there and active when the world was created. It doesn't say that we have a pantheistic world where God IS the universe. Otherwise how could there be a time when God was there but the universe wasn't?

JOM, the footpath you and I walk along is located with creation, not outside creatiion. YOU are in creation too.

Therefore, this form of life, human life, is divine life.

There is no higher form of life.
Your assertion that Yahweh is a higher form of life is a fallacy.
"574M"

Ps 8 - "You made man a little lower than the heavenly beings".
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
to quote a famous person there is no tunnel of light there is no afterlife or higher place  good news is it means there aint the other place either  Kerry Packer
"murray"

How does he know? Rolling Eyes
  ninthnotch Dr Beeching

Location: Not here. Try another castle.
Christianity may do a lot of things.

There are two things it  however, cannot do well:

Metal is one.  Stryper for example was a Christian hair-metal band.  They sucked:



and humour.



Very Happy
"mjja"

That's kinda like the injoke that accountants make say about the fact that someone accidentally raised a credit note on the wrong chart of accounts.  They'll collapse in hysterical laughter, however the rest of us will judgeth them to be lame.

However...

The Flying Spaghetti Moster is funnay!



Cartoons involving the Flying Spaghetti Monster are waaaay funnier.
  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
So many arguments of incredulility, I suppose you just have except that from a goo for you creationist.
"wobert"

Huh?

They evolved obviously,the ignorant and stupid would beg to differ.
"wobert"

Argument by abuse is the refuge of those that have no argument.
  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
to quote a famous person there is no tunnel of light there is no afterlife or higher place  good news is it means there aint the other place either  Kerry Packer
"murray"

Perhaps you should look at the meaning of "non sequitur".
  Oldfart Chief Commissioner

Location: Right base for BK 11R
John of Melbourne

Welcome back, and grace and peace to you.

I like to imagine that I'm intelligent enough to be willing to change my world view when faced with strong enough argument against it.  As such, I should give you the benefit of the doubt in that you would do likewise.  However, I know you are not the man to ever change my world view, and it would be presumptuous of me to think I can change yours.
"TheLoadedDog™"

I don't think I could have summed up my position in a more erudite manner. (Thanks TLD™.)

You asked me a question in one of your replies, namely "Did your Catholic upbringing teach you that being "good" is not enough?"

IIRC the answer would have been "yes" and I probably would have been pointed at things like Paul's letters to the Romans and Galatians (e.g. Rom 3:20-30, Rom 5, 12-21, Gal 2:11-21, Gal 5:1-15, but preferably read in total), and the Letter of James (e.g. Jam 2, 14-26). After which they might have suggested something like 1 Cor 13, 1-13 and to consider how I might put that into action.
  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
Christianity may do a lot of things.

There are two things it  however, cannot do well:

Metal is one.  Stryper for example was a Christian hair-metal band.  They sucked:

...

and humour.

Very Happy

That's kinda like the injoke that accountants make say about the fact that someone accidentally raised a credit note on the wrong chart of accounts.  They'll collapse in hysterical laughter, however the rest of us will judgeth them to be lame.
"ninthnotch"
True.  I rarely find Dan Leitha hilarious, although I do appreciate his After Eden cartoons.  But often they are making a point with a little bit of humour more than trying to be hilariously funny.  The "Darwin fish" cartoon is a good example of that.

However...

The Flying Spaghetti Moster is funnay!



Cartoons involving the Flying Spaghetti Monster are waaaay funnier.
"ninthnotch"
In your opinion.  Personally, what I appreciate is something that is accurate (Mark Knight's cartoons in the Herald Sun, for example, are often making fun of John Howard et. al., but are very cleverly done).  The Flying Spaghetti Monster, on the other hand, is more of a straw-man ridicule of Intelligent Design and creationism.  It is not accurate and thus not particularly clever.

But then you show a penchant for ridicule over accuracy, don't you?
  ninthnotch Dr Beeching

Location: Not here. Try another castle.
But then you show a penchant for ridicule over accuracy, don't you?
"John of Melbourne"
Yes.

And? Your point being?  

Surely you've not forgotten that yes, I enjoy making light of people.
  chrisr001 Chief Commissioner

is this where i reply that i am a fence sitter  ShockedTwisted Evil

yes, that's right

after looking at both sides, i can't decide who is more correct, so will say both.

no serious

even though i work in an industry that deals with numbers, facts and materials millions of years old (re how old is earth thread)

i can't say that science has ALL the answers, and that the pond scum to people line is possible, but dosn't make any sence

so when it is between the big bang vs 7 days, how about we say it was a big bang that had an aftereffect lasting 7 days ?

and for all those thinking i am  Drunk  or  Spew , we had this talk a few weeks ago, and after going through all the arguments (like we are now), the only answer i could come up with is that, at this moment in time, both are correct, but both are wrong

cheers
chris
  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
is this where i reply that i am a fence sitter  ShockedTwisted Evil

yes, that's right

after looking at both sides, i can't decide who is more correct, so will say both.

no serious
"chrisr001"
Seriously, two contradictory accounts cannot both be correct.

even though i work in an industry that deals with numbers, facts and materials millions of years old (re how old is earth thread)
"chrisr001"
Allegedly millions of years old.

i can't say that science has ALL the answers, and that the pond scum to people line is possible, but dosn't make any sence
"chrisr001"
You are right that it doesn't make sense.  In fact, according to what we do know about genetics and other areas of science, it is not possible.

so when it is between the big bang vs 7 days, how about we say it was a big bang that had an aftereffect lasting 7 days ?
"chrisr001"
The "7 days" encompassed everything from the origin of the universe through to the appearance of man.  There is no way that this is compatible with the Big Bang scenario.

and for all those thinking i am  Drunk  or  Spew , we had this talk a few weeks ago, and after going through all the arguments (like we are now), the only answer i could come up with is that, at this moment in time, both are correct, but both are wrong
"I bolded but chrisr001"
Which is a contradiction.

  EvanC Chief Plonker

Location: Bayswater, Victoria
The biggest killers of all time have been atheists or at least basing their ideas on atheist thinking.  So you are now comparing atheism to Islam, not Christianity to Islam.
"John of Melbourne"
TBH I don't think religion is relevant at all to the biggest killers of all time. Because the only thing the biggest killers of all time have in common is that they were/are all complete nutcases.
"EvanC"

No, they were also basing their thinking on atheistic ideas.  That is the claim I made, and you have offered no evidence to refute it; you merely denied it.
"John of Melbourne"
Wait. You ask me to provide evidence - yet you provided none yourself. I can't provide evidence - there is none! But there's no evidence for your contention either! It's just contention-vs-contention.
  murray Assistant Commissioner

to quote a famous person there is no tunnel of light there is no afterlife or higher place  good news is it means there aint the other place either  Kerry Packer
"murray"

How does he know? Rolling Eyes
"mjja"

from when he had the big heart attack a few years ago
a ambulence just happened to be driving past
(divine intervention)
and jump started him
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
JoM, it's impossible to argue with someone who is ignorant and stupid.


   You and Mjja obviously have no idea what a scientific theory is,grab those power lines out the front of your house and tell me if the theory of electro-magnetism is just a "theory".




    Wobert
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Mathew, Mark, Luke and John, such good jewish names, I prefer John, Paul, George and Ringo.


  Wobert
  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
The biggest killers of all time have been atheists or at least basing their ideas on atheist thinking.  So you are now comparing atheism to Islam, not Christianity to Islam.
"John of Melbourne"
TBH I don't think religion is relevant at all to the biggest killers of all time. Because the only thing the biggest killers of all time have in common is that they were/are all complete nutcases.
"EvanC"

No, they were also basing their thinking on atheistic ideas.  That is the claim I made, and you have offered no evidence to refute it; you merely denied it.
"John of Melbourne"
Wait. You ask me to provide evidence - yet you provided none yourself.
"EvanC"

I did provide evidence, by means of a link in my post.

I can't provide evidence - there is none!
"EvanC"
So you have no basis for your claim!

But there's no evidence for your contention either! It's just contention-vs-contention.
"EvanC"
No, I provided evidence.  You didn't, and acknowledged that you couldn't.  Ergo:  your claim fails.

  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
JoM, it's impossible to argue with someone who is ignorant and stupid.
"wobert"
True.  But that presupposes that we are ignorant and stupid.  Apart from being rude and arrogant, that is a totally unsubstantiated assertion.

You and Mjja obviously have no idea what a scientific theory is,grab those power lines out the front of your house and tell me if the theory of electro-magnetism is just a "theory".
"wobert"
And you obviously don't bother to read what we post.  Where exactly did I dismiss evolution (or whatever you are referring to) as "just a theory"?

Answer:  I didn't.

Conclusion:  You don't know what you are talking about.

  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
to quote a famous person there is no tunnel of light there is no afterlife or higher place  good news is it means there aint the other place either  Kerry Packer
"murray"

How does he know? Rolling Eyes
"mjja"

from when he had the big heart attack a few years ago
a ambulence just happened to be driving past
(divine intervention)
and jump started him
"murray"

Which fails to explain how he knows that there is no afterlife.

Did you look up "non sequitur"?
  EvanC Chief Plonker

Location: Bayswater, Victoria
Wait. You ask me to provide evidence - yet you provided none yourself.
"EvanC"

I did provide evidence, by means of a link in my post.
"John of Melbourne"
You provided a link, I don't see any evidence there. I see one guy's contention that's the same as yours - if I could be arsed, I could find someone that agrees with me. Evidence (to me, anyway) is something that can sway opinion - that just confuses if anything!

I can't provide evidence - there is none!
"EvanC"
So you have no basis for your claim!
"John of Melbourne"
So you have no basis for your claim! Face it!

But there's no evidence for your contention either! It's just contention-vs-contention.
"EvanC"
No, I provided evidence.  You didn't, and acknowledged that you couldn't.  Ergo:  your claim fails.
"John of Melbourne"
Well, as does yours, of course. In the end, your contention is equally as stable as mine. Ie; crap!


Anyhoo - I'll restate what I was saying, to be clear. Don't bring things into a situation where you can provide a simpler explanation (Occam's razor an' all) - the simpler explanation is that they were nutjobs.
  deepblue Chief Commissioner

Location: In exile
You and Mjja obviously have no idea what a scientific theory is,grab those power lines out the front of your house and tell me if the theory of electro-magnetism is just a "theory".
"wobert"

it is exactly that - a theory.

Electromagnetism is a theory that explains observed electromagnetic effects. It doesn't explain where the theoretical laws came from, or how the particles came into being, or why a wave and a particle interact the way they do.

Until the 20th century, we had the "classical" theory of electromagnetism...it turned out to be wrong. But of course nothing, no electric motor, electric generator, power transformer, or wireless transmitter or receiver stopped working when it was discovered that the classical theory of electromagnetism was wrong. All those devices were (and still are) built according to a flawed understanding of electromagnetism.

Today the latest theory of electromagnetism is called "quantum mechanical" electromagnetism, which is a superset of "classical". QM electromag explains electromagnetic effects on a quantum scale, so we can build all sorts of new stuff based on an understanding of QM electromag, and all the old stuff based on the classical theory.

In any case, the QM theory is certain to be wrong, and when it is extended, everything that we've built based on it will not stop working.

Of course despite the fancy sounding name, no one is closer to knowing the why. Effects are observed and explained within the QM theory. Eventually someone will come along and find some electromagnetic effect that cannot be explained by the current theory and we'll move on. Don't confuse a theory with knowledge of the facts. The only things in science that are axiomatic are things that we've defined ourselves, such as 1+1=2.
  4BJ Chief Commissioner

Location: Backside trackside at Hawthorn near Mitcham
to quote a famous person there is no tunnel of light there is no afterlife or higher place  good news is it means there aint the other place either  Kerry Packer
"murray"

The only person who will ever know is Kerry Packer.  What he saw, if anything, we will never know.  My guess is his quote about being to the other side and there is [smegging] nothing there was to put off the media about asking him further about what he went through.

As to whether there is a tunnel of light etc, I guess there is only one way to find out...
  deepblue Chief Commissioner

Location: In exile
to quote a famous person there is no tunnel of light there is no afterlife or higher place  good news is it means there aint the other place either  Kerry Packer
"murray"

The only person who will ever know is Kerry Packer.  What he saw, if anything, we will never know.  My guess is his quote about being to the other side and there is [smegging] nothing there was to put off the media about asking him further about what he went through.

As to whether there is a tunnel of light etc, I guess there is only one way to find out...
"4BJ"

OMFG!!!11111oneone have you noticed that your anti-l337 animated gif thingie actually contains a spelling mistake??? ROLF!!!!111oneone

you should get back to its originator and inform him that he's an idiot and a n00b and not the h4x0r he thinks he 1$! LOL!!!!!!111oneone LOL!!!

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