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gallop3
Deputy Commissioner
Joined: Jan 19, 2003
Last Visited: Apr 4, 2007
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Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:22 pm
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Actually Alltrains on behalf of the whole community here I would like to thank you for all this valuable information, plus the help given.
It isn't often that you can obtain information from the horses mouth so to say.
I have found another curly one for you to have a look at too.
How about all the companies that were closed down and bought out by the banks in the 60's and 70's.?
Some that comes to mind is Dalgety.Goldsborough Mort,etc.
Now owned by ANZ bank?
Cheers
Ian
gallop3
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Alltrains
Train Controller
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Last Visited: Jun 11, 2008
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Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:59 pm
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Unless the companies are still in operation today their trademarks are not renewed so the tradenames no longer exist
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gallop3
Deputy Commissioner
Joined: Jan 19, 2003
Last Visited: Apr 4, 2007
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Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:12 pm
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Top news.
You have just fixed my worst nightmare.
So therefore if the trade name doesn't exist anymore we are right?
Also is there some sort of register to decipher all the brand names that have been sold to overseas interests.
Cheers
Ian
gallop3
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Minardiau
Train Controller
Joined: May 15, 2005
Last Visited: Jul 10, 2007
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Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:48 pm
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This is directed at Alltrains
The issue of copyright in modifications is more complicated then what you may think.
I help run a website dedicated to a first person shooter that has 100 times more community created content then MSTS.
Now considering the size of defence spending in the world and the number of companies involved you can imagine how many different vehicles, weapons, uniforms, locations, buildings and people have been recreated for us in this game. Virtually every single tank, gun, APC, aircraft and helicopter that has been built by the US/NATO/Western Allies and the old Warsar Pact/Russia/China has been created in some shape or form.
Hell even the "Mid 80's" version of the game has been modified to resemble a modern conflict between Russia and the US. Hell Even the ADF is heavily represented with all of it's modern gear.
Anyway to the point how this relates to MSTS.
Only one case of copyright infringement has ever been brought against a person. This case was thrown out with the judge ruling that the company was receiving "free exposure and advertising" for it's product and in no way was any financial gain achieved by the person who recreated the product in a virtual environment.
Now onto building recreations.
As a photographer, any building can be photographed and reproduced even for financial gain. The only exception to this is photographs and reproductions of the Eiffell Tower in Paris during the night. By day it's ok.
In conclusion.
From what I can gather somebody in this community is being a smeghead for re-skinning models he does not have permission to do.
However how this affects Team Alco and other addon makers, their use of locomotives, rolling stock, buildings, ect ect clearly falls under "fair use" Team Alco may have some minor issues because they do sell some product(s). However considering the size and scope of their operation it's hard to see any judge taking any "alleged violation" seriously.
If fair use did not exist, and the way some people seem to think copyright works then the world would come to a standstill. Just think about this for a minute.
Last edited by Minardiau on Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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cpdbear
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Last Visited: Jul 23, 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:12 pm
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| Minardiau wrote: | | If fair use did not exist, and the way some people seem to think copyright works then the world would come to a standstill. Just think about this for a minute. |
Last time I check the Australian Copyright act it didn't have 'fair use' provisions, that's in the American Act. The Australian Act has specific exemptions.
Generally I tend to agree with what Minardiau is saying. Copyright is very complex. I also think Alltrains should stop giving legal advice - I suspect he is not qualified to give legal advice. It is fine to alert people to issues in relation to copyright, pointing out the resources they can use to investigate etc. but legal advice should always only be obtained from a lawyer. Generally the law is not as 'black and white' as people think, it's many shades of grey depending on the circumstances. That's why you get cases, like the one decided today about industrial relations, where the high court rules without a unanimous opinion.
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ThatGuyOverThere
Deputy Commissioner
Joined: Dec 26, 2003
Last Visited: Jul 11, 2008
Location: Vocation: Migration: Animation:
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:58 pm
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| cpdbear wrote: | | It is fine to alert people to issues in relation to copyright, pointing out the resources they can use to investigate etc. but legal advice should always only be obtained from a lawyer. Generally the law is not as 'black and white' as people think, it's many shades of grey depending on the circumstances. That's why you get cases, like the one decided today about industrial relations, where the high court rules without a unanimous opinion. |
So... whose gonna hire the lawyer and sign him up to RP? I'll pitch in $10.
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Scott_AUS
Junior Train Controller
Joined: May 30, 2004
Last Visited: Jul 11, 2008
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:53 pm
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| gallop3 wrote: | Top news.
You have just fixed my worst nightmare.
So therefore if the trade name doesn't exist anymore we are right?
Also is there some sort of register to decipher all the brand names that have been sold to overseas interests.
Cheers
Ian |
Ian, try this...it may help:
http://www.search.asic.gov.au/gns001.html
Select the Organisation name and "all names" in the search.
Example - Dalgety - shows it's deregistered. Or would give you a hint as to the owner in some cases, eg Wesfarmers.
You can always cross reference this to a company report - example - Philip Leong Stores in Townsville we brought by Woolies. So while the stores probably have closed, the name is still owned and shows up in their annual report at the bowels of the accountant 'stuff'.
Still looking for a better solution, but that might get you started on the easier ones.
Cheers..Scott.
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blakjak
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 14, 2006
Last Visited: Jul 14, 2007
Location: Sid-en-aye, Ostralya
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:06 pm
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Although I do not doubt anything that Alltrains has said, he seems to know his sheet, but I do know that the only thing they can sue for is 'loss of income'. If you do it for personal use, then there is no income.
You are allowed to copy & store any information you like, as long as it is ONLY for reference &/or other personal uses.
Has there ever been a case in Australia where a company has sued an individual for copying a design for personal use???
PS: Allthough I don't doubt Alltrains' motivtions here, I do find it amusing that alot of you guys are confessing to probably having breached the copyright laws to an investigator of the copyright laws who's job (& enjoyment it seems) is to catch people like you! 
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superheatedsteam
Chief Train Controller
Joined: May 19, 2004
Last Visited: Jul 24, 2008
Location: Perth, WA
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:38 pm
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| blakjak wrote: | | but I do know that the only thing they can sue for is 'loss of income'. |
Thanks for the update relating to this matter. Can you please advise me where I can get more information on this ‘loss of income’ requirement? I don’t recall any mention of it in the Copyright Act 1968.
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blakjak
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 14, 2006
Last Visited: Jul 14, 2007
Location: Sid-en-aye, Ostralya
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:38 pm
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I don't want to ge ttoo technical here, & I'm basically shooting from the hip, but I'm quite sure that they do not investigate breaches of copyright unless there is a complaint by the holder of the breached copyright (Alltrains, is that correct?). They can't & don't investigate everybody & anybody for no reason.
Now, for a company to warrant an investigation, they would want to seek some sort of monatary compensation, the fines or gaol term theoretically recieve if caught is no benifit to the companies, they are in it for the cashola.
On the contrary, most companies appreciate the publicity & exposure gained from having their brand visible, you see lots of T-shirts with beer brands etc all the time. I bet teh cigarette companies wont mind you puting up their logo all over the place.
This is off course you are not using it for any negative way, then they will request you 'cease & desists'. If you attempt to make money by using these images, then you must ask for permission &/or work out a deal or you will get into trouble.
There are also things out there in the public domain that you can freely use without any permission, things like pictures of John Howard (or any public figure), pictures of Sydney Centrepoint Tower, Opera House & so forth. Pictures of these things can be published, & so can up to 10% of any copyrighted work if it is for critical review or direct reference.
Still, I would like to know if there has every been a case of an Australian getting charged for infringing copyright if he/she copied something for personal use. This all goes back to teh old days of "are you allowed to record things with your VHS recorder off TV?". The rule technically said you can't, but it was never enforced & even the TV stations encouraged it. Same goes for a music CD, you are allowed to make a copy for your own personal use.
Phew!
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steam4me
Deputy Commissioner
Joined: Mar 07, 2003
Last Visited: Jun 25, 2008
Location: Port Melbourne, Victoria
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:28 pm
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| blakjak wrote: | On the contrary, most companies appreciate the publicity & exposure gained from having their brand visible, you see lots of T-shirts with beer brands etc all the time.
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So that means we shouldn't have to ask permission or work within the laws of the country? That's why we're asking copyright owners - sheesh - I'd guess we will probably get replies in the range of 80% saying "we don't care - do what you like", 15% "let's see what you're doing first" and 5% "no way, we're so good our proverbial doesn't stink".
As I said on uktrainsim "everyone seems outraged that we should have to ask a company for permission to use their logo (which has usually cost them a considerable degree of money in design), whilst 3d modellers here (on uktrainsim) and on train-sim.com get very upset if their name isn't mentioned in the readme of a route in which their creation has been used."
| Quote: | they will request you 'cease & desist'
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According to my solicitor last week, "cease and desist" may become less common with the powers invested for the copyright holders in the new legislation.
| Quote: | | There are also things out there in the public domain that you can freely use without any permission |
We have already agreed that this is the case - there is no need to keep harping on it.
| Quote: | | up to 10% of any copyrighted work if it is for critical review or direct reference |
Are you sure that you're not quoting US standard "fair use" here? I can't remember seeing that figure anywhere on the Australian copyright website.
| Quote: | you are allowed to make a copy for your own personal use.
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Sigh.
So go build Melbourne - Ballarat for your own use.
Build Adelaide - Tailem Bend for your own use.
Build Harden - Junee for your own use.
Build a fleet of diesels and rolling stock for your own use.
No-one's talking about personal use.
No one.
None of the above have been built solely for personal use.
They may be freeware but THEY HAVE BEEN DISTRIBUTED to third parties and that's where the whole issue gets murky and legislatively tricky.
Tell you what - you set up YOUR website - put YOUR (real) name on it and offer copyrighted material (freeware) for distribution. Please do - I'll send you a DVD of steam4me stuff and I'll walk away from MSTS completely (I'm within millimeters of doing that anyway). You gamble YOUR family's future on not having to ever shell out for legal fees defending yourself (bear in mind it doesn't ever have to go anywhere near court for you to be seriously in debt - and the companies who could get cross have far deeper pockets that you do in an exchange of legal correspondence).
| Quote: | | an investigator of the copyright laws whose job (& enjoyment it seems) is to catch people like you |
What a load of cr*p! And insulting to boot.
If Alltrains had that motivation, why should he be bothered warning anyone on this site? Why should he be assisting modellers "behind the scenes" with advice on arranging compliance with the legislation? He's an enthusiastic MSTS user who wants to see Australian content preserved, nurtured and grown, and with his particular professional skills can see "issues" facing us that need to be addressed.
It seems interesting that 90% of the whingeing about copyright issues is coming from people who've provided no MSTS content at all. That's what's p*ssing me off more than anything else.
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ARG706
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jun 03, 2005
Last Visited: Jul 24, 2008
Location: City of doomsayers
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:57 pm
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| steam4me wrote: |
It seems interesting that 90% of the whingeing about copyright issues is coming from people who've provided no MSTS content at all. That's what's p*ssing me off more than anything else. |
Once you start to create your own buildings/routes/whatever it does give you a nice wake up call. Many of the whingers are often also under 17yo, so sometimes it is heavily dictated by the maturity factor. This can really assist to warp the overall perception of the "community" unfortunately
I should shut up really, I haven't contributed even so much a a building. 
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Zodiac
Station Master
Joined: Jan 19, 2006
Last Visited: Jul 24, 2008
Location: Surfers Paradise , QLD
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:10 am
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Wouldn't this whole Copyright argument be a moot point if the web sites offering the free distribution of this virtual models was hosted overseas rather than here is Australia where overly punitive copyright lawa exist ?
Zodiac
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blakjak
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 14, 2006
Last Visited: Jul 14, 2007
Location: Sid-en-aye, Ostralya
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:16 pm
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| steam4me wrote: |
Are you sure that you're not quoting US standard "fair use" here? I can't remember seeing that figure anywhere on the Australian copyright website.
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exceptions to infringement
Under the Act there are exceptions to infringement that allow some uses of copyright material without permission. These exceptions can be split into two categories, free of charge copying, and copying that requires payment.
The major areas of free of charge copying are:
fair dealing for the purpose of research or study:
allows a student or researcher to copy protected material. Copying 10% or one chapter of a published literary, dramatic or musical work of 10 pages or more, and one article from a periodical, is deemed to be fair,
fair dealing for the purpose of criticism or review:
allows reviewers to make a fair use of copyright material provided they acknowledge the work; or
library provisions:
generally non-profit libraries and archives have the right to:
* reproduce or communicate copyright work for a client;
* reproduce or communicate copyright work for inclusion in the collection of another library; and
* reproduce and communicate original material for the purpose of preservation. Libraries are also able to replace copyright works lost from their collection as long as the work is not available within a reasonable period of time at an ordinary commercial price.
From here...
http://www.copyright.com.au/infringement.htm
| steam4me wrote: |
Tell you what - you set up YOUR website - put YOUR (real) name on it and offer copyrighted material (freeware) for distribution. Please do - I'll send you a DVD of steam4me stuff and I'll walk away from MSTS completely (I'm within millimeters of doing that anyway). You gamble YOUR family's future on not having to ever shell out for legal fees defending yourself (bear in mind it doesn't ever have to go anywhere near court for you to be seriously in debt - and the companies who could get cross have far deeper pockets that you do in an exchange of legal correspondence).
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You better not offer such things cause you never know, I might just call your bluff.
| steam4me wrote: | | blakjak wrote: |
an investigator of the copyright laws whose job (& enjoyment it seems) is to catch people like you
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What a load of cr*p! And insulting to boot.
If Alltrains had that motivation, why should he be bothered warning anyone on this site? Why should he be assisting modellers "behind the scenes" with advice on arranging compliance with the legislation? He's an enthusiastic MSTS user who wants to see Australian content preserved, nurtured and grown, and with his particular professional skills can see "issues" facing us that need to be addressed.
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Why did you leave out my qualifier at the beggining of that sentence that said...
Allthough I don't doubt Alltrains' motivtions here...
All I said is that I found it amusing, & I still do. You must remember that Alltrains is not the only 'investigator' capable of viewing these boards.
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allanl
Train Controller
Joined: Oct 28, 2004
Last Visited: Jul 23, 2008
Location: Adelaide
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:46 pm
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1. Steam4me is the best MSTS site on the planet.
2. I cannot comprehend the blind stupidity of challenging Steam4me to be shut down.
3. I cannot imagine the disastrous effect such a move would have on the Australian MSTS Community.
| Quote: | You better not offer such things cause you never know, I might just call your bluff.
blakjak - put up or shutup!
allanl |
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