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remotemants
Train Controller
Joined: Jul 18, 2004
Last Visited: Mar 2, 2008
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 6:11 pm
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A train line on the Northern Beaches?! Surely not!!
Yes, NIMBY-ism has a lot to do with there being no line anytime in the near future.
I think the chances are very remote anyway - yes transport is becomming a problem in the area, but the trend is highly towards buses, and (as said) they are fairly well established and operate well.
Of course, the only option would be a tunnel for the majority of the length, which as we all know costs very very much.
I'm pretty sure that if there were to be a line, it would (as said) come from Chatswood and along thru French's Forest etc, as any mention of the idea in documents online suggest this and feeder options - I cant see it going over/under the Spit, even though this is the most conjested route. Ive heard that it would be highly difficult to tunnel past Collaroy due to the nature of 'Narrabeen Sandstone'.
As i write this i remember during this years state election I send an email off to the local Manly candidates regarding their ideas on rail transport solutions. David Barr (with a speedy response compared to the other candidates absence of response  ) centred his answer on lightrail.
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I have explored the option of a light rail service, but cannot see the benefit of light rail over buses for the Northern Beaches. Buses are more flexible in that they can travel to all areas and are not restricted to the main arterial routes. There is no advantage to light rail as long as there are plenty of buses travelling along a dedicated bus lane. There would be a lot of expense in setting up the light rail infrastructure and a lot of road space taken up for no additional benefit. Another significant problem is that any government that invests such huge sums of money on infrastructure would demand higher density development on the Northern Beaches to justify this expenditure. I am totally opposed to this as higher density development on the Northern Beaches will only lead to increased traffic congestion. There would be the same negative outcome of higher density development for the Northern Beaches if a heavy rail network were constructed.
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However this response seems to be more centred on internal transport rather than mass transport out of the area.
When you think about it, there are only 4 ways out - Mona Vale Rd, Warringah Rd (Roseville Bridge), across the Spit, or the Ferry - I would think that a heavy rail line would provide another exit/entry route with a high mass capacity, just what we need.
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blakjak
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 14, 2006
Last Visited: Jul 14, 2007
Location: Sid-en-aye, Ostralya
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:31 pm
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| Simes_mk2 wrote: |
Haven't seen the Hoxton Park Rd busway - but my initial reaction is, tough.
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That's not a good argument, a road that is empty for most of the day which costs lots of money & all you can say is "tough"? Come on, put some effort in. 
| Simes_mk2 wrote: |
Maybe my PR angle was a bit misjudged but I believe the only way you'll get people out of a car in Sydney is to force them out by reserving more road space for public transport, i.e the vehicle carrying 40 people over the vehicle carrying one person.
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We shouldn't be "forcing" people to do anything, we should be encouraging/enticing them with incentives to use a better service.
And in reality, you can't force everybody to use public transport, some people don't live near convenient public transport, others need their cars for work, these people shouldn't be forced to suffer so buses can hog half the road.
There is no 'L' key on keyboards...there was never any 'L' key anywhere, we have slaughtered them, there are 'L' keys laying all over the place drowing in their own blood...we will be victorious, Allah is on our side.
Last edited by blakjak on Tue May 15, 2007 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Syd3642
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Dec 12, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 2, 2008
Location: Sydney
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:33 pm
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Monorails would work BUT the residents will say it's an eyesore and very noisy. Lots of Complaints
ARHS NSW Division Member
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Simes_mk2
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Feb 03, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 20, 2008
Location: Sydney
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 9:01 pm
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| blakjak wrote: | | Simes_mk2 wrote: |
Haven't seen the Hoxton Park Rd busway - but my initial reaction is, tough.
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That's not a good argument, a road that is empty for most of the day which costs lots of money & all you can say is "tough"? Come on, put some effort in.
| Simes_mk2 wrote: |
Maybe my PR angle was a bit misjudged but I believe the only way you'll get people out of a car in Sydney is to force them out by reserving more road space for public transport, i.e the vehicle carrying 40 people over the vehicle carrying one person.
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We shouldn't be "forcing" people to do anything, we should be encouraging/enticing them with incentives to use a better service.
And in reality, you can't force everybody to use public transport, some people don't live near convenient public transport, others need their cars for work, these people shouldn't be forced to suffer so buses can hog half the road. |
Ideally the frequencies of buses would be raised in line with any new busway, look at the brisbane examples of how to build and operate them, as well as the tway between liverpool and parramatta. It's early days for the new one IMHO
Thanks for nothing Costa!
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60scarbuilder
Beginner
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Last Visited: Aug 29, 2007
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 9:38 pm
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crazyknightsfan came close when he said that the 12 people at Palm Beach would be outraged. It's not there for the same reason the eastern suburbs rail finishes at Bondi Junction and not at any of the eastern suburbs beaches: to keep out the western suburbs riff raff. Direct rail connection makes it too accessible for all and sundry. No Cronulla riots here thank you very much.
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dirge
Chief Train Controller
Joined: May 20, 2004
Last Visited: Oct 14, 2008
Location: All to Royal National Park
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 10:42 pm
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| Quote: |
I'll give you the full line:
Dee Why
Brookvale
Beacon Hill
Frenchs Forest
Forestville
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Would be nice to see Mona Vale, Warriewood & Collaroy. No point going any further north. The Pittwater district bus depot is at Mona Vale, making it a logical focal point for Barrenjoey feeder buses. Assuming the bedrock allows, of course.
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Brighton-Le-Sands
Monterey
Ramsgate
Sandringham
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Would they really bother deviating to Ramsgate? I assume this refers to Ramsgate Beach, near Coles.
For what it's worth I support the idea of a Northern Beaches railway. Build it and they (commuters) will come. The commuting base is already there, and while a lot of it is on buses, a lot is behind the wheel. Granted the demographics will mean it's a quieter line than say the Western or Illawarra lines, but the line will be used. During peak periods a train trip to the city is a no brainer next to taking a bus via The Spit & Military Road.
Yes, I'm speaking ideally. And I'm aware of the NIMBYism.
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cammo2005
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 20, 2008
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia.
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 12:13 am
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| dirge wrote: |
| Quote: |
Brighton-Le-Sands
Monterey
Ramsgate
Sandringham
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Would they really bother deviating to Ramsgate? I assume this refers to Ramsgate Beach, near Coles.
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It's not as much of a diversion as it sounds - the rail line would essentially follow the F6 corridor through the area.
The southern section of this line will probably get built eventually, as the Illawarra, even with the Cronulla duplication (which for those who don't know has FINALLY gotten underway), will likely have well and truly hit capacity by 2020.
^^
There's an apostrophe in don't.
Yes, I'm the smartsmeg who would always correct the teacher in my year. |
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blakjak
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 14, 2006
Last Visited: Jul 14, 2007
Location: Sid-en-aye, Ostralya
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 12:45 am
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| 60scarbuilder wrote: | | It's not there for the same reason the eastern suburbs rail finishes at Bondi Junction and not at any of the eastern suburbs beaches: to keep out the western suburbs riff raff. Direct rail connection makes it too accessible for all and sundry. No Cronulla riots here thank you very much. |
The ESR was never planned to go to any Eastern beach. Yes, before the O-Limp-Priicks there were plans (which were shot down) to extend the ESR to the Bondi Beach, but this was never part of the original plan. The original plan for teh ESR was to go to Kingsford via Randwick & Bondi Junction with an inner loop to serve the Show Ground & SCG.
There is no 'L' key on keyboards...there was never any 'L' key anywhere, we have slaughtered them, there are 'L' keys laying all over the place drowing in their own blood...we will be victorious, Allah is on our side.
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cammo2005
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 20, 2008
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia.
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 4:31 am
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| 60scarbuilder wrote: | | crazyknightsfan came close when he said that the 12 people at Palm Beach would be outraged. It's not there for the same reason the eastern suburbs rail finishes at Bondi Junction and not at any of the eastern suburbs beaches: to keep out the western suburbs riff raff. Direct rail connection makes it too accessible for all and sundry. No Cronulla riots here thank you very much. |
I can assure you, those responsible for the riots would have had no trouble using a bus if need be to get to where they're going, heck, some of them even drove down here, hence the use of roadblocks on the roads heading out of the Shire at the time.
^^
There's an apostrophe in don't.
Yes, I'm the smartsmeg who would always correct the teacher in my year. |
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blakjak
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 14, 2006
Last Visited: Jul 14, 2007
Location: Sid-en-aye, Ostralya
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 5:44 am
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| cammo2005 wrote: | | 60scarbuilder wrote: | | crazyknightsfan came close when he said that the 12 people at Palm Beach would be outraged. It's not there for the same reason the eastern suburbs rail finishes at Bondi Junction and not at any of the eastern suburbs beaches: to keep out the western suburbs riff raff. Direct rail connection makes it too accessible for all and sundry. No Cronulla riots here thank you very much. |
I can assure you, those responsible for the riots would have had no trouble using a bus if need be to get to where they're going, heck, some of them even drove down here, hence the use of roadblocks on the roads heading out of the Shire at the time. |
I thought the riots were started by local bogans, they didn't neeed to travel at all !
There is no 'L' key on keyboards...there was never any 'L' key anywhere, we have slaughtered them, there are 'L' keys laying all over the place drowing in their own blood...we will be victorious, Allah is on our side.
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RTT_Rules
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 21, 2008
Location: Gladstone Qld
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 1:35 pm
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I think there is more than enough justification to build the Nth beaches line, abiet slowly and costly. There is more than enough people in this area to justify a line running across to Manly and then heading nth to some point.
Suggest the line would need to be built over a minimum of 10years and potentially need higher price tickets to help offset the cost.
The line would be tunnel or land resumption as required with potentiall some elevated running. Yes everyone will complain, but once its running no one will care. They say it will depress house prices, in reality it will become a marketting tool by developers and real estate agents.
Not sure where the best location is to branch off the Nth shore line, but issue will be capacity across the bridge which is probably the reason the govts are simply not interested. A govt with balls would consider taking make the old tram lines and come in via old Wynyard Tram platforms.
Regards
Shane
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blakjak
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 14, 2006
Last Visited: Jul 14, 2007
Location: Sid-en-aye, Ostralya
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 2:11 pm
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| RTT_Rules wrote: |
Not sure where the best location is to branch off the Nth shore line... |
The spare tunnel & platform/s at Nth Syd were constructed incase they ever build thus line, they are still there waiting for a descision to be made.
There is no 'L' key on keyboards...there was never any 'L' key anywhere, we have slaughtered them, there are 'L' keys laying all over the place drowing in their own blood...we will be victorious, Allah is on our side.
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Speed
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Mar 19, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 21, 2008
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 3:34 pm
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It seems that the short answer to the question "Why not?" is, "because it would destroy our transport free idyll".
With the range of employers in the northern beaches, it is desirable to improve transport into the area so that outsiders can get into the area to work. If you have a well-paying job there, you can move closer to work but others must endure a long journey.
If you choose to live on the northern beaches and to work in the city, that is your decision but the people who do this don't seem to be happy about the traffic.
Adding dedicated bus lanes could be good publicity for buses if they went significantly faster than private cars. However, many people will still avoid buses "on principle". You may be able to make do with a bus line which applies during peak hours and not for 24 hours but those peak hours would need to extend well beyond 7:00 - 9:00 and 17:00 - 17:00. Lanes in which bicycles were allowed would also be unsatisfactory.
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Simes_mk2
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Feb 03, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 20, 2008
Location: Sydney
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 3:53 pm
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Personally I think the issue of a lack of rail to the east and south east should be addressed before the lack of rail to the north east is addressed. The areas south of the ESR are much more heavily populated than the areas around Mona Vale etc
Thanks for nothing Costa!
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(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination
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blakjak
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 14, 2006
Last Visited: Jul 14, 2007
Location: Sid-en-aye, Ostralya
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 4:01 pm
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| Simes_mk2 wrote: | | Personally I think the issue of a lack of rail to the east and south east should be addressed before the lack of rail to the north east is addressed. The areas south of the ESR are much more heavily populated than the areas around Mona Vale etc |
I live in the inner City, & I can tell you that getting to the Eastern Subs is no problem at all. City to La Parouse is 15-20 mins by car/bus, even in peak-time.
We have South Dowling St which becomes Southern Cross Drive (which becomes General Holmes Dr & the M5). Sothern Cross Drive is an arterial freeway that takes you out of the mess. Anzac Pde is saturated during peak-time, but it still flows smoothly.
There is no 'L' key on keyboards...there was never any 'L' key anywhere, we have slaughtered them, there are 'L' keys laying all over the place drowing in their own blood...we will be victorious, Allah is on our side.
Last edited by blakjak on Wed May 16, 2007 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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