Sydney History Map - Nearly Finished (I hope)

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Datazoid Junior Train Controller

Alrighty. I'm hoping this baby is nearly finished and can be done with very soon.

I've made all of the corrections suggested to date, and the newest version of the map is here:

http://www.colonpipe.com/images/ssrh_v_3_5_med.jpg

Note that it's now a jpeg file, and as a result it's quite muddy. It's a huge image and it's very heavily compressed, but hopefully it'll open more compatibly on everyone's computers.

There are still a few stations (particularly around Newcastle) that don't have opening or closing dates. If anyone has dates for these stations, if it's not too much trouble, I'd love to add them to the map. Smile

The only thing remaining to finish is the information in the little boxes around the map. This is proving more of a challenge than it really should be, because I only have the internet as a source, and I'll be damned if I can find coherent opening dates and anything useful about the history of a lot of the lines, particularly the most often used ones! (Which also happen to be the ones with the longest and probably most interesting history!) In particular, I can find approximately bugger all about the Main North Line, the Main Western Line and the Main South Line beyond some very vague and confusing opening dates.

I'm wondering if it would be better to provide a lengthier description for closed lines, and leave the current lines at simply opening and electrification dates, and no history? Even finding the opening dates for most of the lines is more of a hassle than it needs to be, as most of the sources online conflict wildly.

Alternatively, I could remove the information boxes for the current lines entirely and just provide a legend to explain their colours, leaving only the infoboxes for disused lines. The legend could also explain the industrial/racecourse/mortuary/airport symbols for those unable to figure them out for themselves.

Anyhow, feedback is greatly appreciated. Corrections, also. For the moment, I'm fairly confident that all of the disused lines have been appropriately represented. So, unless I've managed to omit something ridiculously huge and obvious, I'm done debating lines, and they're staying as-is.

Thanks for all your help with this map. When it's finally finished and credit is made to everyone who's provided information and the appropriate sources, I'll ideally be able to make a printed version available at a reasonable price to anyone who's interested.

Thanks again. Smile
 
Clyde-GM Chief Commissioner

Location: Remote controlled from Junee.
I've noticed the opening date for Macarthur has been left out. I'm sure I provided one earlier, but if not I'll find it again.
Edit: I knew I wasn't going crazy, here is the post with the information. Very Happy

I have a feeling Sandown passenger services ceased in 1991; but am unable to confirm this currently. I can tell you they were still running May 1991, but that's all I've got for now.

To really stuff you up, most of the locations beyond Richmond originally opened simply as a halt at milage X (and as far as I'm aware, Red Cutting was only ever a full size nameboard in the middle of no where, with a couple of other similar examples), and were known by those milages until names were assigned. The dates provided on the map are naming dates as opposed to actual opening dates (which I don't seem to have currently, although am sure I saw them).
Phillip opened as Nepean Bridge (yes, even though it's actually the Hawkesbury there), being renamed in 1934.

I'm adament all stations on Moss Vale - Unanderra closed after 1960.


Moving away from data, a few graphic issues which I suspect aren't due to compression artifacts. The interchange dot is anything but centred at Wolli Creek. Rookwood No. 2 and Rookwood No. 4, Woronora and Sandgate Cemetery icons appear to have been blurred.
 
Datazoid Junior Train Controller

I shall make some changes!

I'm not sure what happened to Wolli Creek, but it's straightened up now. And the blurry cemetery icons are compression artifacts, the whole map is vector, so there's nothing that could have happened to them graphically other than JPEG compression disagreeing with an image it's not really designed to compress. Smile
 
Damien Assistant Commissioner

Location: Penrith South, NSW
I love the map,

Just curious about Parramatta though, I may be wrong but was under the impression that Parramatta when opened in 1855 was opened closer to Granville station if not at Granville station. and the current station not actually opened until the opening on the Main west in July? 1860
 
Damien Assistant Commissioner

Location: Penrith South, NSW
Also just noticed on the Carlingford Branch, you have Rosehill and Rosehill Racecourse, they are the same place. Also the junction is about 2 cars into the platforms at Rosehill for Sandown. Meaning that there is a platform for Carlingford branch and a Platform for the Sandown branch, the Platform for the Sandown branch is still used on racedays and is sometimes refered to as the Rosehill Racecourse platform.
 
Datazoid Junior Train Controller

Just curious about Parramatta though, I may be wrong but was under the impression that Parramatta when opened in 1855 was opened closer to Granville station if not at Granville station. and the current station not actually opened until the opening on the Main west in July? 1860
- A user


I've corrected the date for the opening of Parramatta station.

I really want to include the original Parramatta station, now, but I need advice on where to place it. From my past hour of research, I've concluded that the original Parramatta station was probably located on the northward bend of the Main West, just before the Cumberland Y-link joins up, prior to Harris Park.

This page: link suggests that Parramatta station was located near Dog Trap Creek. Woodville Road  used to be called Dog Trap Road, and Woodville Road meets up with Parramatta Road and the railways at around the same area. One assumes the road was named for the creek, which was nearby.

Further evidence in this page: link which describes Parramatta station as being 22km from Central. That would put Parramatta station just past Granville, which sits at 21.22km from Central. It's probably a little further than 22km, due to the relocation of Central Station, which would have been 300-400m closer to Granville, making the original Parramatta a bit further west.

I haven't thought too much about this, have I?

Also just noticed on the Carlingford Branch, you have Rosehill and Rosehill Racecourse, they are the same place. Also the junction is about 2 cars into the platforms at Rosehill for Sandown. Meaning that there is a platform for Carlingford branch and a Platform for the Sandown branch, the Platform for the Sandown branch is still used on racedays and is sometimes refered to as the Rosehill Racecourse platform.
- Damien


Alrighty. I've made some changes to the Rosehill area, which you can see in this crop:

http://www.colonpipe.com/images/rosehill.png

I hope that more accurately reflects the track layout for the area. Smile
 
The_Beer_Baron Assistant Commissioner

Location: In the shed, putting down another brew.

I've corrected the date for the opening of Parramatta station.

I really want to include the original Parramatta station, now, but I need advice on where to place it. From my past hour of research, I've concluded that the original Parramatta station was probably located on the northward bend of the Main West, just before the Cumberland Y-link joins up, prior to Harris Park.

This page: link suggests that Parramatta station was located near Dog Trap Creek. Woodville Road  used to be called Dog Trap Road, and Woodville Road meets up with Parramatta Road and the railways at around the same area. One assumes the road was named for the creek, which was nearby.

Further evidence in this page: link which describes Parramatta station as being 22km from Central. That would put Parramatta station just past Granville, which sits at 21.22km from Central. It's probably a little further than 22km, due to the relocation of Central Station, which would have been 300-400m closer to Granville, making the original Parramatta a bit further west.

I haven't thought too much about this, have I?
- Datazoid


The distance for Parramatta from central could be right, it depends on where they class 'Central' as. I heard that the original Central was between where Central and Redfern is today. And in fact it was called Redfern for a while and todays 'Redfern' was known as Everleigh. So it all depends on where the reference point is, seeing as though there could be more than 1 point of reference for Central, it could prove very interesting.
 
1979 Chief Commissioner

Location: MMC
GREAT WORK

But i have just noticed that you have the closure of GOODYEAR station as 1956 (aprox) and it was open up until about 1991 as for Sandown and Hardies.

Hope this helps.

1979
 
Damien Assistant Commissioner

Location: Penrith South, NSW
The junction for the Sandown branch is before Rosehill not after the Racecourse platform is on the Sandown branch at the same location but is still currently in use on racedays.

The actual layout of Rosehill is the Up and Down Branch combine with a set of points at the edge of the platform then another set of points split off about 1 or 2 car lengths into the racecourse platform, The main line heads to Carlingford into a 4 car platform at Rosehill, The Branch line continues along the racecourse platform which is about 16 cars long, hehe I don't know how you'd show this on ya map though wether it's two rosehill stations with the junction before or a single Rosehill with the junction after.
 
Damien Assistant Commissioner

Location: Penrith South, NSW

I've corrected the date for the opening of Parramatta station.

I really want to include the original Parramatta station, now, but I need advice on where to place it. From my past hour of research, I've concluded that the original Parramatta station was probably located on the northward bend of the Main West, just before the Cumberland Y-link joins up, prior to Harris Park.

This page: link suggests that Parramatta station was located near Dog Trap Creek. Woodville Road  used to be called Dog Trap Road, and Woodville Road meets up with Parramatta Road and the railways at around the same area. One assumes the road was named for the creek, which was nearby.

Further evidence in this page: link which describes Parramatta station as being 22km from Central. That would put Parramatta station just past Granville, which sits at 21.22km from Central. It's probably a little further than 22km, due to the relocation of Central Station, which would have been 300-400m closer to Granville, making the original Parramatta a bit further west.

I haven't thought too much about this, have I?
- Datazoid


The distance for Parramatta from central could be right, it depends on where they class 'Central' as. I heard that the original Central was between where Central and Redfern is today. And in fact it was called Redfern for a while and todays 'Redfern' was known as Everleigh. So it all depends on where the reference point is, seeing as though there could be more than 1 point of reference for Central, it could prove very interesting.
- The_Beer_Baron


I think Central was located about 300metres South or so and platforms 2 and 3 actually occupy part of the old station.

Hmmm the other question you have to ask is, The South line to Liverpool was built first, does that actually mean that Parramatta was towards Merrylands?
 
Damien Assistant Commissioner

Location: Penrith South, NSW
Hmmm just looking at my 1934 street directory, and have to question the opening date of Sandown, seeing the line isn't actually in the street directory, however there is a tramway from O'connell street to the wharf on the Parramatta river near Sandown
 
Capegauge Chief Train Controller

I'm adament all stations on Moss Vale - Unanderra closed after 1960.

- Clyde-GM


huh? Robertson was open right up until the Cityrail weekend train stopped, and the Cockatoo run started. Mt Murray was listed on earlier Cityrail timetables though don't recall stopping there when I was last on the MV via Wollongong loco-hauled train. And there was that private platform for the house, and the platform at Summit Tank (not a listed boarding place).
 
michael1970 Junior Train Controller

I noticed you dont have the closing date for the toronto line this happened in 1990 it may have been march or april
 
Damien Assistant Commissioner

Location: Penrith South, NSW
Only realised on my way to work that a station was missing, well kinda, when I passed the site of Old Mount Druitt station I realised it wasn't on the Map.

The Orignal Mount Druitt opened on the 19th of August 1881, went through a rebuild and was finally demolished in 1974 when the opening of the new Mount Druitt station 500 metres east was opened on the 8th of December 1974
 
Capegauge Chief Train Controller

Is old Petersham shown?
 
Datazoid Junior Train Controller

But i have just noticed that you have the closure of GOODYEAR station as 1956 (aprox) and it was open up until about 1991 as for Sandown and Hardies.
- 1979


Changed the closing dates for these three stations to 1991.

The junction for the Sandown branch is before Rosehill not after the Racecourse platform is on the Sandown branch at the same location but is still currently in use on racedays.
- Damien


After scouring Google Maps for about an hour, I've re-arranged the Rosehill area to look like this:

http://www.colonpipe.com/images/rosehill2.png

I believe this more accurately reflects the layout of the tracks. Camellia Junction (as marked on NSWrail.net) is simply the geographic location where the Carlingford and Sandown lines part ways, they do indeed become seperate entities a few metres before Rosehill station.

Hmmm the other question you have to ask is, The South line to Liverpool was built first, does that actually mean that Parramatta was towards Merrylands?
- Damien


That's a really good point, and it would make complete sense that Parramatta would have been on the South Line. This could place the old Parramatta station somewhere very close to the Y-Link flyover!

Hmmm just looking at my 1934 street directory, and have to question the opening date of Sandown, seeing the line isn't actually in the street directory, however there is a tramway from O'connell street to the wharf on the Parramatta river near Sandown
- Damien


Intriguing! I think I need further information to go on, but the street directory sounds quite compelling.

uh? Robertson was open right up until the Cityrail weekend train stopped, and the Cockatoo run started. Mt Murray was listed on earlier Cityrail timetables though don't recall stopping there when I was last on the MV via Wollongong loco-hauled train. And there was that private platform for the house, and the platform at Summit Tank (not a listed boarding place).
- Capegauge


I think Clyde-GM was referring to the stations on the U-MV line that didn't have closing dates. Robertson and Ranelagh House are marked on the map as still being open to tourist traffic, and don't have a closing date. I may need to change Summit Tank, but I don't have an actual closing date for it right now.

Only realised on my way to work that a station was missing, well kinda, when I passed the site of Old Mount Druitt station I realised it wasn't on the Map.
- Damien


I've added a relocation date for Mt. Druitt station. I'm not including "Old X station" or "X (1st)" unless the relocation of the station involved a major change in the organisation of the line. If it moved half a kilometre up or down the track, I'm just giving it a "Relocated X.XX.XXXX" date in it's information. See the other threads about this map for more information on why some "1st" stations have been included, and others not.

Is old Petersham shown?
- Capegauge


If I'm not mistaken, Old Petersham was (is) on the same location as the current Petersham station, so there's no reason to show a second station graphic for it, nor any real reason for a relocation date.

I encourage arguing these points, you probably all have better sources than I do. Smile
 
Clyde-GM Chief Commissioner

Location: Remote controlled from Junee.
uh? Robertson was open right up until the Cityrail weekend train stopped, and the Cockatoo run started. Mt Murray was listed on earlier Cityrail timetables though don't recall stopping there when I was last on the MV via Wollongong loco-hauled train. And there was that private platform for the house, and the platform at Summit Tank (not a listed boarding place).
- Capegauge


I think Clyde-GM was referring to the stations on the U-MV line that didn't have closing dates. Robertson and Ranelagh House are marked on the map as still being open to tourist traffic, and don't have a closing date. I may need to change Summit Tank, but I don't have an actual closing date for it right now.
- Datazoid
Indeed I was. To be pedantic, none of the stations see government traffic, so would at the very least be services suspended, if not closed. As I pointed out earlier however, Burrawang and Robertson are still serviced by 'rail buses'.
Summit Tank station is a fancy look-out location. The platform for the house is Ranelagh House.

Is old Petersham shown?
- Capegauge


If I'm not mistaken, Old Petersham was (is) on the same location as the current Petersham station, so there's no reason to show a second station graphic for it, nor any real reason for a relocation date.

I encourage arguing these points, you probably all have better sources than I do. Smile
- Datazoid
I assume Capegauge is talking about the Petersham station building beside the Up Main visible from the existing Petersham station. If so, it obviously doesn't need a seperate entry.

After scouring Google Maps for about an hour, I've re-arranged the Rosehill area to look like this:

http://www.colonpipe.com/images/rosehill2.png

I believe this more accurately reflects the layout of the tracks. Camellia Junction (as marked on NSWrail.net) is simply the geographic location where the Carlingford and Sandown lines part ways, they do indeed become seperate entities a few metres before Rosehill station.
- Datazoid
To confirm what Damien said earlier, they actually become seperate lines in the platform; although the trackage here was at one stage double track; which would make the prior arrangement correct. Of interest is the fact that Camellia and Hardies were less than 100m apart, if you ignore Central/Sydney Terminal, these two stations were probably the closest two on the system.


Hmmm the other question you have to ask is, The South line to Liverpool was built first, does that actually mean that Parramatta was towards Merrylands?
- Damien
 


That's a really good point, and it would make complete sense that Parramatta would have been on the South Line. This could place the old Parramatta station somewhere very close to the Y-Link flyover!
- Datazoid
In excavations for the Y link flyover the site of the original turntable was uncovered, photographed and recorded, then buried again.
Given that the 'first' railway constructed (okay, okay, I realise lines in the Hunter existed before railways in Sydney) was intended to link Sydney and Goulburn, the original Parramatta was indeed on the South.

Further evidence in this page: link which describes Parramatta station as being 22km from Central. That would put Parramatta station just past Granville, which sits at 21.22km from Central. It's probably a little further than 22km, due to the relocation of Central Station, which would have been 300-400m closer to Granville, making the original Parramatta a bit further west.
- Datazoid
I'll present you with a problem, prior to sextuplication between Central and Strathfield, the railway was a little straighter than it currently is, and prior to quaduplication it was probably a little straighter again. Obviously the straighter the route, the shorter the distance between A and B, so old references to distances could well be off by a little bit (I assume at some stage at least Central - Strathfield was measured and altered accordingly, even if only for the 1906 relocation of Central).

I'm not sure what happened to Wolli Creek, but it's straightened up now. And the blurry cemetery icons are compression artifacts, the whole map is vector, so there's nothing that could have happened to them graphically other than JPEG compression disagreeing with an image it's not really designed to compress.
- Datazoid
That's good to hear. Very Happy
 
Datazoid Junior Train Controller

In excavations for the Y link flyover the site of the original turntable was uncovered, photographed and recorded, then buried again.
Given that the 'first' railway constructed (okay, okay, I realise lines in the Hunter existed before railways in Sydney) was intended to link Sydney and Goulburn, the original Parramatta was indeed on the South.
- Clyde-GM


Well, based on the evidence presented so far, I've placed Parramatta (1st) here:

http://www.colonpipe.com/images/parramatta.png

The P'matta turntable was obviously past P'matta station. If it was found beneath the Y-link, which isn't far at all from Granville station, then I think the general theory that the original P'matta station was a few hundred metres down from Granville sounds pretty logical to me.

So it's on the South Line, between Granville station and the Y-link. The opening date of 1855 is common knowledge, the closing date of 1860 is guessed from the opening date of the current Parramatta station.

If anyone can provide more precise dates, please do, it would make me a happy cartographer. Smile
 
Clyde-GM Chief Commissioner

Location: Remote controlled from Junee.
The current arrangement for Parramatta (1st) looks good to me. Smile
My informations suggests the following...
Passenger services to Stanford Merthyr were suspended 2nd April 1929 and never restored.
Bee Siding was constructed in 1928.
Services to Cessnock ceased 26 May 1972.
Hope Street and Enfield Loco were opened 15th August 1927.
You've (I assume accidentally) got Central as opening in October 1855 not September 1855. Wink
On the same topic, you've given the opening of Birrong and Yagoona as June 1928, instead of July 1928.

Have you given thought to including the Merriwa Branch?
I'm going to lobby for the inclusion of the Dudley Colliery Branch now. The reason being that the original Burwood No. 3 Platform was located on the Dudley Colliery Branch, closing 3rd November 1930. On the same day, a new Burwood No. 3 Platform was brought into service on the Belmont Branch.

As Hinkler was only ever a goods platform; would it be more fitting for it to carry the industrial icon?

Seeking confirmation on the following.
I have information suggesting there was a station called Redhead South on the Belmont Branch; closing 14th May 1928. Can anyone confirm as I can't seem to locate it on Rolfeworld.
 
Datazoid Junior Train Controller

Added information as provided, added Merriwa Line. Woo!

Alrighty, here's the latest version of the map:

http://www.colonpipe.com/images/ssrh_v3_7_med_noprint.jpg



The background will probably wind up composed of a collage of NSW rail-related photographs, from permitting sources, and from myself.

I apologise for including the watermark on the large version. Now that it's in poster form, I figure a lot of people will want to print it as-is. I don't have a problem with that, and I appreciate the enthusiasm, but I'd really rather everyone wait until the image is complete. I will be offering a high-resolution version of it to anyone who wants it. Smile
 
wurx Lithgovian Ambassador-at-Large

Location: The birthplace of Street's Ice Cream
....Phillip opened as Nepean Bridge (yes, even though it's actually the Hawkesbury there), being renamed in 1934....
- Clyde-GM

Slightly OT, but from just upstream of Penrith to downstream of Windsor, that stretch of the river is known as the Hawkesbury-Nepean - so the name of the station was semi-accurate, at least.
 
wurx Lithgovian Ambassador-at-Large

Location: The birthplace of Street's Ice Cream
....Just curious about Parramatta though, I may be wrong but was under the impression that Parramatta when opened in 1855 was opened closer to Granville station if not at Granville station. and the current station not actually opened until the opening on the Main west in July? 1860
- Damien
....I really want to include the original Parramatta station, now, but I need advice on where to place it. From my past hour of research, I've concluded that the original Parramatta station was probably located on the northward bend of the Main West, just before the Cumberland Y-link joins up, prior to Harris Park.

This page: link suggests that Parramatta station was located near Dog Trap Creek. Woodville Road used to be called Dog Trap Road, and Woodville Road meets up with Parramatta Road and the railways at around the same area. One assumes the road was named for the creek, which was nearby.

Further evidence in this page: link which describes Parramatta station as being 22km from Central. That would put Parramatta station just past Granville, which sits at 21.22km from Central. It's probably a little further than 22km, due to the relocation of Central Station, which would have been 300-400m closer to Granville, making the original Parramatta a bit further west.....
- Datazoid

The first Parramatta station was on what is now known in the "trade" as the Old Main South, or the line between Granville and Cabramatta.

Until now, I've never heard of Dog Trap Creek (not listed in my '05 UBD), but perhaps the road was named after it, or vice versa. And yes, what was Dog Trap Rd is today's Woodville Rd.

In fact the original site was next to the abovementioned road - it was on the Sydney side of what would have been the Dog Trap Rd levelxing, and is on the Sydney side of where Woodville Rd now dives under the Old Main South.

Not so many years ago, there was a commemorative sign there indicating the exact spot.
 
Clyde-GM Chief Commissioner

Location: Remote controlled from Junee.
I'd like to say that the map's looking great, but sadly, it's looking like a red x at the moment (both the preview and the large edition). Sad
That said, I'll go out on a limb and assume you haven't touched Clarence (1st); which then means it's missing a Reopening into tourist traffic date as it is currently used by Zig Zag Railway. This does open a whole new can of worms with attempting to fit in the stations at Top Points and Bottom Points though...


Edit: Having 'saved as', then changed the .jpg to .jpeg, she loaded. LOVELY map. Absolutely beautiful. Just a shame a lot of dates are missing - back to the books I go!
Before I depart however, there are another couple of graphic errors. The station indicators for the Hunter Line at Civic and Wickham are both complete and go across the line, as opposed to regular indicators that are dark on either side of the line.
And it wouldn't be a typical post of mine if I didn't present a headache...
elaw+Main:1&line=NSW:richmond_vale:4">Passenger platform at Pelaw Main, I assume it actually wasn't on the Stanford Merthyr Branch. Perhaps one of the resident Novacastians will be able to enlighten us...
 
Clyde-GM Chief Commissioner

Location: Remote controlled from Junee.
Rogans Hill opened 24th November 1924
Last service on the line was 31st January 1932.
Line closed 1st February 1932.

Milsons Point (2nd) closed 20th March 1932.
Milsons Point (existing) opened 19th March 1932.
(yes, the different dates are intended)
 
wurx Lithgovian Ambassador-at-Large

Location: The birthplace of Street's Ice Cream
Datazoid, can't make that page work matey Sad
 

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