NEW OPERATOR SOON `TRANZIT JIM pty'

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DavidB - Moderator Site Admin

Location: Canberra
What about coupling height issues between an hitachi and a bluebird trailer?
- monday

Both can be coupled to locos, so they should couple to each other.

Cheers
David
 
monday Chief Commissioner

This thread is now hurting my head. BTW, not all hitachi M's & T's have pin/towbar links.  Some do have autocouplers between the cars in the three car set.
 
DavidB - Moderator Site Admin

Location: Canberra
This thread is now hurting my head. BTW, not all hitachi M's & T's have pin/towbar links.  Some do have autocouplers between the cars in the three car set.
- monday

Not that I've ever noticed, but my guess would be the No.2 end of the motor cars coupled to the former driving trailers. Like the couplers in N sets, they probably have the pins removed and need a fitter to uncouple them. So I'll notch that one up as a non-issue.

Cheers
David
 
U25B Junior Train Controller

Instead of running Hitachi motors with U-boat trailers(with hitachi bogies),why not try the ultra radical approach of running Hitachi motors hauling Hitachi trailers(they already come with hitachi bogies pre-attached).
- U25B

Come to think of it, one and possibly two of the reasons would also apply to his other idea of running a Bluebird trailer between Hitachi motors.

Cheers
David
- DavidB



Insert Hitachi trailer for Bluebird and suddenly(mechanically and electrically at least)it can be done.
 
U25B Junior Train Controller

This IS fun. Isn't it?
 
DavidB - Moderator Site Admin

Location: Canberra
Insert Hitachi trailer for Bluebird and suddenly(mechanically and electrically at least)it can be done.
- U25B

Now there's a novel idea! Just paint the Hitachi blue along the window line and name it after a bird. Nobody will know the difference!

Cheers
David
 
monday Chief Commissioner

Ok, david, can you outline the relevant issues for further discussion.
 
DavidB - Moderator Site Admin

Location: Canberra
Ok, david, can you outline the relevant issues for further discussion.
- monday

Major electrical reason why you can't run a Bluebird trailer between Hitachi motors.

Major electrical, weight, braking and structural reasons why you can't run a Hitachi driving trailer push-pull with a loco with U-boat trailers and a dining car in between.

Cheers
David
 
JGS - Moderator Chief Commissioner

Location: Junee NSW
Funniest thread EVER!

Mate, this thread makes buried locos at Newport sound completely plausible!

How about this gem?
I may be able to find BG bogies off something else, or even build a set if I need to.
- jimontrack


Hahahahahaahaa!

Have you seen the bogie recipe?
To make bogies, find some...erm...bogie-making stuff. Add two wheelsets, and assemble. Tada, bogies! Yaaaay!

Actually, I find that the best way to make bogies is to wander around in a dusty room and breathe through my nose.

I haven't laughed this hard for months. This thread is priceless, long may it prosper.

Seriously though, I have managed to source some funding for TRANZIT JIM. I have a nice friend I met online who just happens to be...wait for it...shhhhh, listen closely and don't tell anyone...a Nigerian General. He has LOTS of money for TJ!

Cheers,
Matt
 
sthyer Deputy Commissioner

FWIW, you can fit autos in place of the link and pin couplers, it's already been done to stray hitachi trailers at Steamrail to keep them towable.

As for bogies, now that David has posted a photo of a U-boat bogie, the problem of mounting the Hitachi bogie is revealed; they have body mounted bolsters.

No engineering problem can't be solved, funding it all can be amusing though
 
vrps Chief Train Controller

Would it just be easier to modify an hitachi or U "boat" set for all the needs that Jim wants it for, like stripping a trailer and fitting it out like a dinning car or even a lounge car, this would solve a hole heap of problems.

But the reality is no one seems to know if this guy if serious or not about this, registering a company name is one thing but actually starting the company is another thing altogether Question
 
DavidB - Moderator Site Admin

Location: Canberra
Would it just be easier to modify an hitachi or U "boat" set for all the needs that Jim wants it for, like stripping a trailer and fitting it out like a dinning car or even a lounge car, this would solve a hole heap of problems.
- vrps

That would reduce one of the four issues from 'major' to 'significant'. Smile

Cheers
David
 
2353 Chief Train Controller

Location: Brisvegas
Funniest thread EVER!

Seriously though, I have managed to source some funding for TRANZIT JIM. I have a nice friend I met online who just happens to be...wait for it...shhhhh, listen closely and don't tell anyone...a Nigerian General. He has LOTS of money for TJ!

Cheers,
Matt
- MattAustin


Just send an email with your bank account details and a gesture of goodwill will be deposited within 24 hours.
 
ThatGuyOverThere Deputy Commissioner

Location: Vocation: Migration: Animation:
This thread seems somewhat like a James Bond movie - the evil bad guy reveals his plans to take over the world just before he tries to kill 007. Except not.  Confused

It seems somewhat like you are this Tranzit Jim's crony; his mouthpiece or something. Why can't HE speak for himself? If he wants to venture out and do something as weird and insane as this and have support for it, I think perhaps he can speak for himself and his "company".

And by the way, if you wanted to get into something HUGE, use a steam locomotive. They appeal to more then just railfans.  Wink

Heck, build a replica of Thomas the Tank Engine! Yeah!  Very Happy
 
U25B Junior Train Controller



Heck, build a replica of Thomas the Tank Engine! Yeah!  Very Happy
- ThatGuyOverThere



And for the kind of money you need to be playing with-this suggestion is not as silly as it sounds.Maybe D4 268.......in blue!
 
Stoker_Motor Chief Train Controller

Location: Halsey Theater
Major electrical, weight, braking and structural reasons why you can't run a Hitachi driving trailer push-pull with a loco with U-boat trailers and a dining car in between.

Cheers
David
- DavidB


Free book eh. I'll have a stab.

Electrical. Hitachi D car requires 1. 415Vac for heating 2. 110Vdc control for door operation and car lighting. Most diesels compliant with yankee standards (excluding pommy stuff) run at 74Vdc. The diesel would require a HEP unit.

Weight shouldn't be an issue unless the loco is vastly underpowered. The poms run sets like this without too many hassle.

Braking is only a problem if the EP gear on the hitachi is used. If not, it would be air brake all round.

Hitachi D cars have draw bars fitted all round but these can easily be removed and replaced with autos, as sthyer pointed out. Otherwise, drawbars could be used throughout.

BTW. No airbags means 30kph, not 65.
 
DavidB - Moderator Site Admin

Location: Canberra
Electrical. Hitachi D car requires 1. 415Vac for heating 2. 110Vdc control for door operation and car lighting. Most diesels compliant with yankee standards (excluding pommy stuff) run at 74Vdc. The diesel would require a HEP unit.
- Stoker_Motor

Or you need a power van. But if you have U-boats trailers in between.....

Weight shouldn't be an issue unless the loco is vastly underpowered. The poms run sets like this without too many hassle.
- Stoker_Motor

Nothing to do with loco power. But weight is an issue. You're on the right track looking towards the Poms and their driving trailers.

Braking is only a problem if the EP gear on the hitachi is used. If not, it would be air brake all round.
- Stoker_Motor

Not quite to do with the braking on the cars. There is a particular quirk of air brakes when used in the way proposed.

BTW. No airbags means 30kph, not 65.
- Stoker_Motor

It's 65 for the DRCs. Why only 30 for Hitachis?

And you've missed the structural reason.

Cheers
David
 
FieldShunt74 - Moderator Chief Commissioner

OK, I've got nothing better to do than consider fictitious crap like this.  
Ok, david, can you outline the relevant issues for further discussion.
- monday
Major electrical reason why you can't run a Bluebird trailer between Hitachi motors.  

Major electrical, weight, braking and structural reasons why you can't run a Hitachi driving trailer push-pull with a loco with U-boat trailers and a dining car in between.
- DavidB
 

Let's do electrical. We've got a locomotive with a 27 pin jumper which can supply control current but not power for lighting, heating or process heat (Jim's diner). Unless of course the loco will have Head End Power but Jim has not specified what loco he'll be using.  

Bluebird cars. Some other kind of jumper coupling altogether. Unless it has a diesel running, no power. Probably needs 120V DC or 76V DC for lighting.  

U boat trailer. Uses two 24 pin jumpers dating back to the 1927 "standard" cars (ie Sydney's Red Rattlers). No power generation facilitys. Needs 120V DC for lighting. Has heaters that operate off 1500V DC.  

We've got Hitachi cars, which I know very little of. I'm guessing they have a 42 pin jumper. Without overhead there's no source of power here. The (silly?) Victorians never even put batteries in their suburbans until recently. The lights probably need 120 or 240 volts AC but I'd like some Victorian backup on that.  

We want to use the Hitachi's as a driving trailer to control the locomotive at the far end of the consist. If we could get an electrical connection through all those dissimilar jumpers we would have to adapt the existing master controller from it's EMU setup (how many notches on a Hitachi?) which would be tricky. There would be switches in the Hitachi cab that could be used for the loco holy trinity, Control/Fuel Pump, Engine Run and Gen field. If there were less than 8 master controller notches you could just pick up every second notch on the engine. You would not really need all eight for an application like this.  

So the big problem, as I see it, is that everyone is going to be sitting in the cold and dark because there is no source of heating or lighting power on this train. That's after you standardize the jumper connections.  

Got a torch handy, Jim?
 
DavidB - Moderator Site Admin

Location: Canberra
Bluebird cars. Some other kind of jumper coupling altogether. Unless it has a diesel running, no power.
- FieldShunt74

Bluebird trailer - no diesel. Converted for loco-hauled operation in 1990. Which means.......

U boat trailer. Needs 120V DC for lighting. Has heaters that operate off 1500V DC.
- FieldShunt74

Which means you need......

So the big problem, as I see it, is that everyone is going to be sitting in the cold and dark because there is no source of heating or lighting power on this train.
- FieldShunt74

On the right track here. It's related to all the above mentions of head end power.

You're both so close!

Cheers
David
 
FieldShunt74 - Moderator Chief Commissioner

You need through piped main reservoir to control the brakes from the driving trailer. That is of course unless you run HEP through and have an electric compressor on the driving trailer. It's always desirable to have the compressor on the same car as the controlling brake valve but not mandatory.  

If the loco will have 26L or similar brakes there will need to be a through connection of the Number 4 Independent release pipe from the control trailer to the loco. If the #4 pipe is not able to be charged as required you can get sticking brakes on the locomotive. If you're going to put #4 through you might as well have #3 control pipe and an Independent brake valve on the control trailer.

Do all the cars in question have through piped main res? The U boat and the Hitachi would. I reckon the Bluebird would too.
 
DavidB - Moderator Site Admin

Location: Canberra
It's always desirable to have the compressor on the same car as the controlling brake valve but not mandatory.
- FieldShunt74

The Brit's don't with their driving trailers. They solved two of the above problems with one modification.

Through piping MR is the most easily solved of all the problems if they don't have it already, so I don't count it as a major issue.

Cheers
David
 
FieldShunt74 - Moderator Chief Commissioner

I think I know what you're thinking but I wouldn't reccommend it for Jim's application. You want to multiplex the control circuits over the 415V three phase jumpers like the XPT did when it first came out. I don't think this was one of the better pommy ideas. The XPT has wisely gone back to using hard wired jumper couplings. We don't know that Jim will have 3 phase in any case. I think he might heat and light with compressed coal gas from cylinders mounted under the cars.
 
DavidB - Moderator Site Admin

Location: Canberra
I think I know what you're thinking but I wouldn't reccommend it for Jim's application.
- FieldShunt74

I'm not thinking what you could do to make it work, I'm thinking why Jim's idea won't work. It's to do with the U boat trailers.

We don't know that Jim will have 3 phase in any case..
- FieldShunt74

It will have to if he wants to hire a dining car as he has suggested. But.....

Cheers
David
 
mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
Re Hitachi couplings, yes it's possible to drop an auto on, I've watched it done. Full details in another thread several months back. It takes half a day though, especially if you're doing it with a forklift on uneven ballast.

I think the weight problem DavidB is hinting at is the fact that a relatively light driving trailer is being pushed by a loco which will inevitably be quite a bit heavier. If it's involved in an accident the loco will squash everything in front of it. And there might be problems with ride quality, I don't know.

MU controls shouldn't be very much of a problem - even if the Hitachi uses a 42 pin connector (on which I can't comment) I doubt that it uses them all so it should be possible to fit them with the lowest common demoninator and run OK. Did someone mention 27 pin? I've got absolutely no idea in this area.

Power for lighting - shouldn't be too much of a problem. Under-floor generators a la country cars shouldn't increase the weight on the airbags too much. Again no expertise in the area.
 
DavidB - Moderator Site Admin

Location: Canberra
I think the weight problem DavidB is hinting at is the fact that a relatively light driving trailer is being pushed by a loco which will inevitably be quite a bit heavier.
- mjja

You're 95% there! It does have to do with a light (30t) driving trailer. See my earlier hints.

If it's involved in an accident the loco will squash everything in front of it.
- mjja

Especially when combined with the quirk of air brakes I mentioned earlier. The brake problem is a issue in its own right, although mainly to do with comfort.

Power for lighting - shouldn't be too much of a problem. Under-floor generators a la country cars shouldn't increase the weight on the airbags too much. Again no expertise in the area.
- mjja

No offence, but that's the sort of suggestion Jim would come up with. He wants to hire a dining car which requires head end power anyway.

Cheers
David
 

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