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Revenue
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Dec 01, 2004
Last Visited: Jul 30, 2010
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:34 am
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Well I'm off to use my Sunday Saver! 
(for the record, I pay for public transport like everyone else)
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kN
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Dec 25, 2005
Last Visited: Jan 21, 2010
Location: Balham, Northern Line
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| kN |
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:37 am
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| Revenue wrote: | ... especially since we reprogrammed the 10x2hr to not deduct more than two trips per day.
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A hypothetical..
So if I have a 10x2hr and my first trip is at say 0705, meaning my ticket is valid until 1000, then make another trip at say 1115, then that stays valid for the rest of the day? Would the ticket be stamped as a 1400 expiry, and what then happens if I'm travelling at 1800, having attempted to validate my ticket and are picked up by the inspectors?
As for this morning's follow up in The Sunday Age, did they really need to publish three letters form the Grade 5 at Toorak College talking about the ozone layer?
For anyone who hasn't seen it, re-read this thread and everything is pretty much covered.
kN, formerly known as Kilonewton
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Gwiwer
Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Last Visited: Jul 30, 2010
Location: Around Cringeworthy Bottom
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| Gwiwer |
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:18 pm
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| Quote: | | I pay for public transport like everyone else |
If only ....... 
Using a 10x2 hour ticket as kN has described should mean that upon second validation within the same day it will default to show expiry at 02.00 and become a daily.
This is what usually happens but as with all machines there is the occasional failure and only the next 2 hour timestamp appears. This would be considered a ticketing fault if presented to an AO who should use their premitted discretion and allow the ticket to be used; they might however choose to withdraw it as a defective ticket. Either way my opinion is that no offence has been committed by the user in this case.
My arguments about availability of the Sunday Saver are made from an advocacy viewpoint; I actually use a monthly so the whole pre-purchase on the bus argument is not directly relevant to me. But I know of people for whom it does present some sort of obstacle. It is aimed at attracting casual users onto the system who might otherwise not use public transport, and who certainly do not do so on a regular basis and would buy tickets in advance as they passed through the CBD.
It is precisely this market who are unlikely to decide prior to the day of travel that they are going by PT, and therefore need to be able to obtain the Sunday ticket as they enter the system, otherwise the car will come out as it does every other day.
I personally reject the argument of deviating to obtain a discount - I wouldn't go to a train station to buy milk if it was a few cents cheaper but farther away - and I won't walk the extra 600m in the wrong direction to the milk bar (which is inidentally also closed on Sunday mornings) and neither will a number of other potential users who are instead continuing to drive.
Proudly a Myki-free zone
Please visit Penhayle Bay HERE and leave a message. |
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wongm
GEEWONG
Joined: May 26, 2005
Last Visited: Jul 29, 2010
Location: Geelong, Victoria
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| wongm |
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:36 pm
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| Gwiwer wrote: | Using a 10x2 hour ticket as kN has described should mean that upon second validation within the same day it will default to show expiry at 02.00 and become a daily.
This is what usually happens but as with all machines there is the occasional failure and only the next 2 hour timestamp appears. Either way my opinion is that no offence has been committed by the user in this case. |
What happens if one had two 10x2 hour tickets in their possesion, with one having one 2xhour ticket left on it, and the other empty? If you validate the last trip on the old ticket at the begining of the day, then validate the first of the other ticket later on, will the AOs still consider this a daily? (otherwise one might end up with a wallet full of 10x2hour tickets with only one trip left!)
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Gwiwer
Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Last Visited: Jul 30, 2010
Location: Around Cringeworthy Bottom
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| Gwiwer |
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:59 pm
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| Quote: |
What happens if one had two 10x2 hour tickets in their possesion, with one having one 2xhour ticket left on it, and the other empty?
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You will need to validate the same ticket for a second period to obtain the daily function. If you only have one trip left then it remains a 2-hour ticket, and if you then start a second (new) ticket the same day the two cannot be combined as one daily.
Proudly a Myki-free zone
Please visit Penhayle Bay HERE and leave a message. |
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Revenue
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Dec 01, 2004
Last Visited: Jul 30, 2010
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:03 pm
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| Quote: | | This is what usually happens but as with all machines there is the occasional failure and only the next 2 hour timestamp appears. |
This happened during the first week or so after the new software was introduced as the new software had not reached all of the validators (eg. some buses were out of the depot, some trams were being repaired, etc, and didn't get the update until they went back to the depot).
Once the new software reached them, this didn't happen. For the same reason, you can occasionally find trams or buses who charge last years fares for the first couple of days each year. This happens in every city in Australia and Melbourne is better than most. When I used to work in QLD, I remember that Brisbane Transport used to have buses that went upto a week with the previous fares. If anyone ever finds a validator that has the wrong software then I'd love to hear about it.
| Quote: | | You will need to validate the same ticket for a second period to obtain the daily function. |
Correct. I should point out that this feature (eg. the no more than two trips per day) is something that is relatively difficult to explain to customers, and therefore is something that only regular, experienced, customers will pick up on (eg. the sort of customers that otherwise might purchase both a 10x2hr and 5xDaily to get the best deal).
And yes, Gwiwer, I have to purchase and pay for tickets like everyone else. I normally order online or purchase them from the Metshop.
| Quote: | | It is aimed at attracting casual users onto the system who might otherwise not use public transport, and who certainly do not do so on a regular basis and would buy tickets in advance as they passed through the CBD. |
For the discount, up to 80%, customers have demonstrated that they are willing to pre-purchase. As I mentioned, 40% of tickets are purchased from retail agents, and many Sunday Saver tickets are purchased in advance from stations.
Spending the massive amounts of cash to make the tickets available on system would have killed the ticket - it simply wouldn't have happened.
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DavidB
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 11, 2003
Last Visited: Jan 25, 2007
Location: Canberra
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| DavidB |
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:21 pm
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According to today's Age, the Premier has asked Prof Bill Russell to do an in depth study into the idea after the Commonwealth Games. Presumably there will be an opportunity to make submissions. I just hope it takes a whole of government approach rather than looking at the public transport budget in isolation.
I agree that you simply can't take fares away from the current system and expect it to cope. Some level of service increase and improvement is required and this will cost money in the short term, but the longer term benefits outweigh this.
Cheers
David
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GeoffreyHansen
Minister for Railways
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Last Visited: Jul 31, 2010
Location: Waiting on the next commuter service to Bathurst
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| GeoffreyHansen |
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:04 pm
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I suppose that a good way to trial Free Public Transport would be to half one day each week (preferably a working day) Fare Free, for every week during a trial period and then see what the results would be.
It would vertainly be very interesting to see what the results would be.
Thanks
Geoffrey
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mjja
Sir Nigel Gresley
Joined: Jan 13, 2003
Last Visited: May 23, 2010
Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
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| mjja |
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:44 pm
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| Revenue wrote: | | especially since we reprogrammed the 10x2hr to not deduct more than two trips per day. |
That's another thing I want you to have a warm fuzzy feeling about. Thanks!
| Quote: | | They are reprogrammed with new fares annually anyway so the cost argument is invalid |
Afraid not. Changing the prices is relatively easy. Changing the programing of the validators is relatively easy. Changing the programming of sales devices is quite hard and expensive.[/quote]
Is that because the system wasn't designed with the proper flexibility at the beginning? Or is it just because there are so many of them?
Either way, will Smart Cards solve the problem?
Happy Gunzelling and remember, "Go by rail!"
Michael Angelico
President, Smart Passengers Inc
(My opinions are my own unless specifically stated.)
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mjja
Sir Nigel Gresley
Joined: Jan 13, 2003
Last Visited: May 23, 2010
Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
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| mjja |
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:50 pm
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| Revenue wrote: | | (for the record, I pay for public transport like everyone else) |
How come you don't have an employee pass??? I know all Connex/VLine/YT/bus employees have them, and a few ads I saw for jobs in DoI said they had it too. So is it only some of the PT jobs in DoI?
Happy Gunzelling and remember, "Go by rail!"
Michael Angelico
President, Smart Passengers Inc
(My opinions are my own unless specifically stated.)
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Gwiwer
Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
Last Visited: Jul 30, 2010
Location: Around Cringeworthy Bottom
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| Gwiwer |
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:58 pm
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| Quote: |
for the record, I pay for public transport like everyone else)
How come you don't have an employee pass???
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And for the record my comment was not directed at Revenue but the "If only..." referred to "If only everyone paid....." in the context of intentional fare evasion.
Proudly a Myki-free zone
Please visit Penhayle Bay HERE and leave a message. |
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mjja
Sir Nigel Gresley
Joined: Jan 13, 2003
Last Visited: May 23, 2010
Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
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| mjja |
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:04 pm
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| GeoffreyHansen wrote: | I suppose that a good way to trial Free Public Transport would be to half one day each week (preferably a working day) Fare Free, for every week during a trial period and then see what the results would be.
It would vertainly be very interesting to see what the results would be.
Thanks
Geoffrey |
Great idea. Alternatively, a free fortnight, advertised well in advance. I reckon a fortnight is the minimum that would properly indicate whether the system would cope long-term.
Happy Gunzelling and remember, "Go by rail!"
Michael Angelico
President, Smart Passengers Inc
(My opinions are my own unless specifically stated.)
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Revenue
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Dec 01, 2004
Last Visited: Jul 30, 2010
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:33 pm
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| Quote: | | How come you don't have an employee pass??? I know all Connex/VLine/YT/bus employees have them, and a few ads I saw for jobs in DoI said they had it too. So is it only some of the PT jobs in DoI? |
Only a very tiny percentage of people in DOI get free public transport. Some employees who were compulsorily transferred from the PTC to DOI retained their free travel entitlements. Some very senior people get free public transport as part of salary packages, but almost all of us have to pay.
I would have thought that you guys would have liked the fact that I have to pay. 
| Quote: | | Is that because the system wasn't designed with the proper flexibility at the beginning? Or is it just because there are so many of them? |
The former. Melbourne's current ticketing system is pretty static - if you want to add a new product you literally have to drill holes for new buttons, and reprogram all the sales devices one at a time (eg. visiting each location). Its easier for validation software (as that gets downloaded reasonably quickly). Software is complex and difficult to get right.
The best analogy I can use is when banks had the old style ATMs where they actually had a button for each function (eg. they had different buttons for different accounts, different types of transactions, etc). This of course made them pretty inflexible. The TVMs in the new system will be fully dynamic - like modern ATMs that use 'eight buttons' or touchscreen style interfaces.
So, the new system will be much more dynamic. Ticketing systems have moved on so much in the last twelve years, they now have more in common with banking systems than anything else.
| Quote: | | Smart Cards solve the problem? |
Smartcards, combined with touch screens, better software flexibility, and a contract better able to respond to changing circumstances will solve the problem of flexibility.
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GeoffreyHansen
Minister for Railways
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Last Visited: Jul 31, 2010
Location: Waiting on the next commuter service to Bathurst
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wongm
GEEWONG
Joined: May 26, 2005
Last Visited: Jul 29, 2010
Location: Geelong, Victoria
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| wongm |
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:08 am
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| GeoffreyHansen wrote: | | I reckon it would be a good idea to give all government employees free travel on public transport to and from their workplace rather than getting them to buy tickets. |
| Revenue wrote: | | Only a very tiny percentage of people in DOI get free public transport. Some very senior people get free public transport as part of salary packages, but almost all of us have to pay. |
Maybe what we need is a change to tax laws, so one can receive a yearly PT ticket via salary sacifice (cutting down the tax one pays) the same way one can do now with company cars.
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