Hey, it's time for another creation/evolution thread!

 
  Sonofagunzel Chief Commissioner

I disagree.
"John of Melbourne"


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  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
At 01.35Am this morning, when most of us where in bed asleep, JOM attribbuted some of the material below to oldfart, and to me, 574M

I think JOM was going a bit too fast here, I never said any of the material below allegedly attributed to me.



- God created a self-evolving universe, which science has done much to help us understand.
"Oldfart"
I don't doubt that your Catholic school taught that, but the Bible teaches the opposite.

The Bible was invariably understood to not be literal on this issue (even in early centuries) ...
"574M"
Which last point is incorrect.

...the point I'm making is that there is a 'middle ground' and it is quite commonly held. It isn't a case of just "one or the other".
"574M"
The "middle ground" is an unsatisfactory combination of both alternatives, that really satisfies neither side.

I believed then, as I believe now, that evolution takes place and that the process of natural selection, as described by Darwin, is its main if not sole mechanism.
"574M"
Actually, natural selection was described by a creationists before Darwin.  But natural selection is, at best, only capable of eliminating the less fit; it cannot create the fitter ones.  So it cannot be the sole mechanism.

The big question for me is not how evolution takes place, but why it takes place. Whether a self-evolving system is created or just 'pops' into existence; it still leaves the teleological question - Why does it bother to do so?

I have always been rather interested in the writings of Teilhard De Chardin (warning, warning! - Catholic, Jesuit and regarded with deep suspicion by many of the more 'orthodox').
"574M"
Including by a committed Catholic I know.

He was a biologist, paleontologist (fossils) and an evolutionist of some renown. He posited that the surging evolution of the cosmos from primal stuff, to organised matter, through simple life, to consciousness and self-consciousness was a result of a natural force that drove everything to a greater complexity.
"574M"
Which force has never been identified.  It remains a fantasy, and contrary to know scientific laws.

For the record: These days my beliefs are more like that described by TLD™, and I would like to think I am an honorary member of the FGDHB: the Fellowship of Good and Decent Human Beings - (well maybe not completely 'decent' when in certain company).
"574M"
Did your Catholic upbringing teach you that being "good" is not enough?

I accept that lots of very genuinely religious people are also members of that. I am particularly impressed by those who dedicate themselves to good causes, not because of a fear of punishment or an expectation of reward, but (in the spirit of their various religious founders or simply through their own convictions) because it is the right thing to do.
"574M"
And it is a little-known fact that most of this is done by Bible-believing Christians.  The sort that today would be (mis-)labelled "fundamentalists".
"John of Melbourne"
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
I think deepblue is a little bit off the planet telling TLD™ that if he is not tolerant of Christians telling him how to live his life, then he is not tolerant of Christianity at all.
"574M"
It's perfectly valid if that is a core aspect of Christianity.
"John of Melbourne"


that is a core aspect of missiology, JOM. Not one of the core teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Look to your Q source, there is no missiological sources in there.


No one has the right to tell anyone else how to live their lives and what values to live by. We all have to work it out for ourselves.
"574M"
According to whom?  Or is this just your opinion?  Because, by saying that I don't have the right to tell anyone else how to live their lives, you are telling me how to live my life.
"John of Melbourne"


Behavoiur reveals choices. Choices are based on values. Values are teleological, ipso facto, one chooses ontic good, not ontic evil. Therefore, yad bhavati, tad bhavatum. What you feel is good for you, you choose. you choose what will serve you and your beliefs.

I am not telling you how to live your life, I am saying you make choices. Choices will attribute good to you; you don't choose evil, you choose beliefs, behaviours, attitudes and your food in accord with what you think, know and understand to be for your benefit.


The worst thing any religion can do is have someone live in fear of death of eternal suffering, punishment and damnation. People should not die with fear, they should die with love.
"574M"
Perhaps that's why Christians tell others the good news that, by believing in Jesus, you can avoid that eternal suffering.  Then, and only then, can they die with love, rather than the fear of eternal suffering, the fear of returning as a pig, or whatever.
"John of Melbourne"


Well, human being running in the human race with horse blinkers on, your good news is not the only good news. Its good news for you people who believe it to be so. And its bad news, telling people there is eternal suffering.

Do you really believe this?

Who has come back from the dead and told you what is over there on the other side?

Have you met anyone who has told you that?

Do share.

Tell, so we may know and understand.

However, if you tell me that based on your beliefs on what is contained in the scriptures of your religion, then you are a human being running the human race with horse blinkers on, and the horse blinkers are your beliefs.
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
mjja, I am not an evolutionist and I do not propagate that.
"574M"
You could have fooled me, given your following statements:
...to my mind, evolution is not something requiring belief, it is simply something that happens. ...

To me, it is simply a fact, we evolve through various forms of life, mineral, plant, animal and human.
"574M"
(Of course, I understand the word "evolutionist" to mean somebody that believes the Theory of Evolution to be true.)
"John of Melbourne"


I dont have to believe facts.
Facts speak for themselves.
Ipso facto est.
Do you have to believe in the sun?
The sun is there.

Do you have to believe in the moon?
no, the moon is there, for all to see.


The highest form of life in this universe is human. Note that no other higher form of life has been encountered by human beings.
"574M"
This is not something to "note", but an unsubstantiated claim on your part.  According to Christianity, we have encountered a higher form of life—Yahweh.
"John of Melbourne"



kindly read the following,


COL I : 12-20

...
He is the image of the invisible God,
the lirst-born of all creation,
for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible.
All things were created
through him and for him.
He is before all things,
and in him all things hold together.

...

For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell,

...


That says, inter alia,  that all of creation, is created in Christ, for Christ, and through Christ. All things, according to Christianity, are in Christ. Christ, and the Father, are not somewhere else.

JOM, the footpath you and I walk along is located with creation, not outside creatiion. YOU are in creation too.

Therefore, this form of life, human life, is divine life.

There is no higher form of life.
Your assertion that Yahweh is a higher form of life is a fallacy.
  deepblue Chief Commissioner

Location: In exile
Who has come back from the dead and told you what is over there on the other side?
"574M"

Christ has.
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
Who has come back from the dead and told you what is over there on the other side?
"574M"

Christ has.
"deepblue"


Who, human being, walking on earth now, in 2006. Here. Australia.  Who has come back from the dead, walked up to you, and told you what happens on the other side?
  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
I reckon mjja knew in advance JoM was returning and started this thread as a welcome back present...
"ninthnotch"
He had no idea.  And when he started the thread, I had not decided when I would return.

They are the exception (and many are probably not actually Christians), not the rule.

---

But were they following Biblical principles? And did they have the support of other Christians?
"JoM's two quotes combined"


Not saying they were the rule, nor that they were follwoing exact Biblical principles, nor that they were supported by the majority of other Christians (I'm actually pretty sure that humanitarian aid to the victims of this in Uganda may have been provided by Chriistian organisations).  

The aim of this post was to point out that if religious texts can be misinterpreted or twisted and that 'extremist nutjobs' also are more than capable of using Christianity as much as Islam as a justification for the violence they perpetrate.  

And like the LRA or abortion bombers, worshippers of a certain religion should not be - as Eleven Mile was doing with Muslims - judged the extreme element that abuse religion as a justification for their own ends. It was illustrating that most if not all religion can and is abused.  It's not a justification however to assume that all Christians are going to shoot a security guard dead or all Muslims are suicide bombers.
"ninthnotch"

That's mostly fair enough.  The only problem I have with it—which I touched on in one or two of my earlier posts in this thread—is that I don't believe that the extremist Muslims are necessarily misusing the Qu'ran, nor that the extremists are that insignificant minority.  Just because people keep telling us that Islam is a religion of peace doesn't necessarily make it so.  I haven't studied the Qu'ran for myself, so I really can't comment on what it really teaches, but the widespread tacit acceptance of terrorism in the Muslim world and the huge lack of condemnation of such by other Muslims (although that does seem to be changing a little) says to me that acceptance of terrorism, etc. by Muslims could be the rule rather than the exception.
  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
question for JoM / MJJA

(still on topic, but just after some information)

What is your opinion on SCIENCE ?

in the context of ......
we would not have the lifestyle we have now without scientific research
no petrol, no electricity, no TRAINS  Shocked , no medical system (and thus no people living to 100)

the list goes on and on, but what is your responce to the original question ?

thanks
chris
"chrisr001"

As deepblue said, there is no problem with a Christian accepting science.  In fact, further to deepblue's two examples, most of the founders of modern science were Christians.  And even (some?) secular historians of science accept that it was the reformed Christian culture of Europe that gave rise to science (i.e. it would not have happened without that worldview as a foundation).

Science is founded on the principle that we have an orderly world to study.  Greek science never developed because they believed that the gods could change the laws of nature at a whim.  Atheists believe that the universe is an accident, so why should there be order?  But Christians believe that God created an orderly universe, that is therefore capable of being studied.

By the way, seeing you mentioned medical systems, did you know that one of the inventors of Magnetic Resonance Imaging is a young-Earth creationist?

The idea that creationists are anti-science is nothing more than an anticreationist-perpetuated myth that has no basis in fact.
  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
I think JOM was going a bit too fast here, I never said any of the material below allegedly attributed to me.
"574M"

Sorry.  I'll fix that tonight.
  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
I think deepblue is a little bit off the planet telling TLD™ that if he is not tolerant of Christians telling him how to live his life, then he is not tolerant of Christianity at all.
"574M"
It's perfectly valid if that is a core aspect of Christianity.
"John of Melbourne"


that is a core aspect of missiology, JOM. Not one of the core teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Look to your Q source, there is no missiological sources in there.
"574M"
Q source?  

Jesus himself said:...go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.


No one has the right to tell anyone else how to live their lives and what values to live by. We all have to work it out for ourselves.
"574M"
According to whom?  Or is this just your opinion?  Because, by saying that I don't have the right to tell anyone else how to live their lives, you are telling me how to live my life.
"John of Melbourne"


Behavoiur reveals choices. Choices are based on values. Values are teleological, ipso facto, one chooses ontic good, not ontic evil. Therefore, yad bhavati, tad bhavatum. What you feel is good for you, you choose. you choose what will serve you and your beliefs.
"574M"
Could I have that in English please?

I am not telling you how to live your life, I am saying you make choices. Choices will attribute good to you; you don't choose evil, you choose beliefs, behaviours, attitudes and your food in accord with what you think, know and understand to be for your benefit.
"574M"
You told me that I don't have the right to (choose to) do something.  That is telling me (in a small sense) how to live my life.


The worst thing any religion can do is have someone live in fear of death of eternal suffering, punishment and damnation. People should not die with fear, they should die with love.
"574M"
Perhaps that's why Christians tell others the good news that, by believing in Jesus, you can avoid that eternal suffering.  Then, and only then, can they die with love, rather than the fear of eternal suffering, the fear of returning as a pig, or whatever.
"John of Melbourne"


Well, human being running in the human race with horse blinkers on, your good news is not the only good news. Its good news for you people who believe it to be so. And its bad news, telling people there is eternal suffering.
"574M"
Sometimes there is bad news that needs to be told.  But it is not the bad news that Christianity concentrates on.  It is the good news that there is a way of avoiding the bad.

Do you really believe this?

Who has come back from the dead and told you what is over there on the other side?

Have you met anyone who has told you that?
"574M"
Jesus.  Okay, I haven't met him in the flesh, but I have his written testimony.

However, if you tell me that based on your beliefs on what is contained in the scriptures of your religion, then you are a human being running the human race with horse blinkers on, and the horse blinkers are your beliefs.
"574M"
That is nothing more than argument by assertion.  This is not so just because you say so.
  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
mjja, I am not an evolutionist and I do not propagate that.
"574M"
You could have fooled me, given your following statements:
...to my mind, evolution is not something requiring belief, it is simply something that happens. ...

To me, it is simply a fact, we evolve through various forms of life, mineral, plant, animal and human.
"574M"
(Of course, I understand the word "evolutionist" to mean somebody that believes the Theory of Evolution to be true.)
"John of Melbourne"


I dont have to believe facts.
"574M"
First, goo-to-you evolution is not a "fact".  It is a hypothesis that many people believe.  Second, you still have to believe that they are facts.  It is a fact that I am married.  Do you believe that?

Facts speak for themselves.
"574M"
No, facts don't talk.  You have to believe them to be so.

Ipso facto est.
Do you have to believe in the sun?
The sun is there.
"574M"
I do believe in the sun.  And I have good grounds for that belief, because I can observe it.  Unlike goo-to-you evolution, which no-one has observed.

Do you have to believe in the moon?
no, the moon is there, for all to see.
"574M"
Not blind people.  But they believe it anyway because they can trust the people who have seen it.


The highest form of life in this universe is human. Note that no other higher form of life has been encountered by human beings.
"574M"
This is not something to "note", but an unsubstantiated claim on your part.  According to Christianity, we have encountered a higher form of life—Yahweh.
"John of Melbourne"


kindly read the following,

COL I : 12-20

...
He is the image of the invisible God,
the lirst-born of all creation,
for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible.
All things were created
through him and for him.
He is before all things,
and in him all things hold together.

...

For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell,

...


That says, inter alia,  that all of creation, is created in Christ, for Christ, and through Christ. All things, according to Christianity, are in Christ.
"574M"
I believe that Jesus was the instrument of God's creation.  That doesn't address what I said, that Yahweh is a higher life form.

Christ, and the Father, are not somewhere else.
"574M"
God is everywhere, including outside of his creation.  (He cannot be part of his creation.)  Jesus left Earth 2000 years ago to go to where He is preparing a place for us.  Ergo, he is somewhere else than here.

JOM, the footpath you and I walk along is located with creation, not outside creatiion. YOU are in creation too.

Therefore, this form of life, human life, is divine life.
"574M"
Yes, we are part of creation.  But God is not part of creation, as the agent of creation must be something external to creation.

There is no higher form of life.
Your assertion that Yahweh is a higher form of life is a fallacy.
"574M"
You have failed to demonstrate that.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
That's mostly fair enough.  The only problem I have with it—which I touched on in one or two of my earlier posts in this thread—is that I don't believe that the extremist Muslims are necessarily misusing the Qu'ran, nor that the extremists are that insignificant minority.  Just because people keep telling us that Islam is a religion of peace doesn't necessarily make it so.  I haven't studied the Qu'ran for myself, so I really can't comment on what it really teaches, but the widespread tacit acceptance of terrorism in the Muslim world and the huge lack of condemnation of such by other Muslims (although that does seem to be changing a little) says to me that acceptance of terrorism, etc. by Muslims could be the rule rather than the exception.
"John of Melbourne"


IF there is more of an acceptance of terrorist acts by Muslims then perhaps we have to ask why? Lets face it, the growth of Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism would not have been the runaway success that it is were it not for the illegal occupation (and building of illegal settlements) in the Occupied West Bank of Jordan.

Those suggest that the Koran as a book of peace have agendas just as misguided as those such as Archbishop Pell who say it is a book of violence.

Many, but not all, people in Northern Ireland accepted terrorism for decades. We often forget that much of that terrorism was backed by money that was openly coming at the time from the US sources.

Terrorism has been around for centuries, but we only got a "War on Terror' after the New York bombing. It is also conveniently forgotten that the second biggest terrorist attack on US soil in recent times was carried out by one of their own.  

Back to the topic.......

Is Iraq the best that God could have created?

Is Iraq the best we can evolve into?

Bing Wink
  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
Who has come back from the dead and told you what is over there on the other side?
"574M"

Christ has.
"deepblue"

Who, human being, walking on earth now, in 2006. Here. Australia.  Who has come back from the dead, walked up to you, and told you what happens on the other side?
"574M"

So now you change the rules?  Jesus has left a record on which we can rely.  Therefore, your question has been answered.
  Sonofagunzel Chief Commissioner

Who has come back from the dead and told you what is over there on the other side?
"574M"

Christ has.
"deepblue"


Who, human being, walking on earth now, in 2006. Here. Australia.  Who has come back from the dead, walked up to you, and told you what happens on the other side?
"574M"


John of Melbourne has just come back from the dead too.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
I don't know about that Soag.

   So many arguments of incredulility, I suppose you just have except that from a goo for you creationist.


cheers Wobert
  murray Assistant Commissioner

Who has come back from the dead and told you what is over there on the other side?
"574M"

Christ has.
"deepblue"

Who, human being, walking on earth now, in 2006. Here. Australia.  Who has come back from the dead, walked up to you, and told you what happens on the other side?
"574M"

So now you change the rules?  Jesus has left a record on which we can rely.  Therefore, your question has been answered.
"John of Melbourne"

to quote a famous person there is no tunnel of light there is no afterlife or higher place  good news is it means there aint the other place either  Kerry Packer
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
to quote a famous person there is no tunnel of light there is no afterlife or higher place  good news is it means there aint the other place either  Kerry Packer
"murray"


Just as well...who'd want to spend the rest of their afterlife in the company of Kerry Packer? Razz

Bing
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
i am not a religious nut
it also say in the bible some ware  that to god a day is but a thousand years and a thousand years but a day
"murray"

Well that cancels out doesn't it? You can make the days of creation into 1000 years with the first half of the verse, but then you have to use the second half to make them back into days.

seen a interesting badge on the back of a car yesterday the christian fish sigh that had grown legs and had darwin written in the body
"murray"


Very Happy

any way  i think the aliens  experimented with a ape Wink
"murray"

How did the apes get here then?
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
They evolved obviously,the ignorant and stupid would beg to differ.




  chers Wobert
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
question for JoM / MJJA

(still on topic, but just after some information)

What is your opinion on SCIENCE ?
"chrisr001"

Time for another cartoon:


in the context of ......
we would not have the lifestyle we have now without scientific research
no petrol, no electricity, no TRAINS  Shocked , no medical system (and thus no people living to 100)
"chrisr001"

Ah, I have to take that one up. Before the Flood people used to live to 500 or more most of the time. Even after that Moses and Joshua lived to over 100.

the list goes on and on, but what is your responce to the original question ?

thanks
chris
"chrisr001"

In short, we have no problem. As Galileo said, if God gave us brains, He must have meant us to think with them. He said that in the context of scientific research and invention.
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
I think deepblue is a little bit off the planet telling TLD™ that if he is not tolerant of Christians telling him how to live his life, then he is not tolerant of Christianity at all.
"574M"
It's perfectly valid if that is a core aspect of Christianity.
"John of Melbourne"

that is a core aspect of missiology, JOM. Not one of the core teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Look to your Q source, there is no missiological sources in there.
"574M"

Jesus' parting words to the apostles were "Go into all the world and make disciples" ie convince people to become Christian. It's a core teaching all right.

No one has the right to tell anyone else how to live their lives and what values to live by. We all have to work it out for ourselves.
"574M"
According to whom?  Or is this just your opinion?  Because, by saying that I don't have the right to tell anyone else how to live their lives, you are telling me how to live my life.
"John of Melbourne"

Behavoiur reveals choices. Choices are based on values. Values are teleological, ipso facto, one chooses ontic good, not ontic evil. Therefore, yad bhavati, tad bhavatum. What you feel is good for you, you choose. you choose what will serve you and your beliefs.
"574M"

And what if what you feel is good for you is in fact not good? If I know that, it's my responsibility to tell you so, because otherwise, I'm partially responsible for your consequences.

I am not telling you how to live your life, I am saying you make choices. Choices will attribute good to you; you don't choose evil, you choose beliefs, behaviours, attitudes and your food in accord with what you think, know and understand to be for your benefit.
"574M"

OK let's take food as a parallel. I'm not telling you what you should eat, but if I see you living on nothing but hot chips with tons of grease and salt, I should at least warn you that it's going to cause you big health problems later on.

The worst thing any religion can do is have someone live in fear of death of eternal suffering, punishment and damnation. People should not die with fear, they should die with love.
"574M"
Perhaps that's why Christians tell others the good news that, by believing in Jesus, you can avoid that eternal suffering.  Then, and only then, can they die with love, rather than the fear of eternal suffering, the fear of returning as a pig, or whatever.
"John of Melbourne"

Well, human being running in the human race with horse blinkers on, your good news is not the only good news. Its good news for you people who believe it to be so. And its bad news, telling people there is eternal suffering.
"574M"

OK, so there's good news and bad news, same as a doctor says. The doctor has the facts (direct from a personal investigation) and is responsible to tell you about them and recommend a course of treatment. In the case of religion, we have the facts (direct from the Creator) and are responsible to tell everyone about them and recommend a solution which costs nothing.

Of course you can get a second opinion if you want, and believe someone else rather than us, but when doing so, look at the doctor's qualifications and weigh up why you believe them not us. Is it because the medicine tastes better? Or because the doctor makes the diagnosis sound less like a dry sermon? I hope you can see the point I'm trying to make here.

Do you really believe this?

Who has come back from the dead and told you what is over there on the other side?
"574M"

Jesus.

Have you met anyone who has told you that?

Do share.

Tell, so we may know and understand.
"574M"

It's all in His autobiography.

However, if you tell me that based on your beliefs on what is contained in the scriptures of your religion, then you are a human being running the human race with horse blinkers on, and the horse blinkers are your beliefs.
"574M"

What's the difference between an out-of-body experience and a Bible? Both can be forged. Or imagined.
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
I dont have to believe facts.
Facts speak for themselves.
Ipso facto est.
Do you have to believe in the sun?
The sun is there.

Do you have to believe in the moon?
no, the moon is there, for all to see.
"574M"

The Theory of Evolution is not a fact. It has never been observed. It is a theory.

kindly read the following,


COL I : 12-20

...
He is the image of the invisible God,
the lirst-born of all creation,
for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible.
All things were created
through him and for him.
He is before all things,
and in him all things hold together.

...

For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell,

...


That says, inter alia,  that all of creation, is created in Christ, for Christ, and through Christ. All things, according to Christianity, are in Christ. Christ, and the Father, are not somewhere else.
"574M"

Wrong. It's saying that Jesus was there and active when the world was created. It doesn't say that we have a pantheistic world where God IS the universe. Otherwise how could there be a time when God was there but the universe wasn't?

JOM, the footpath you and I walk along is located with creation, not outside creatiion. YOU are in creation too.

Therefore, this form of life, human life, is divine life.

There is no higher form of life.
Your assertion that Yahweh is a higher form of life is a fallacy.
"574M"

Ps 8 - "You made man a little lower than the heavenly beings".
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
to quote a famous person there is no tunnel of light there is no afterlife or higher place  good news is it means there aint the other place either  Kerry Packer
"murray"

How does he know? Rolling Eyes
  ninthnotch Dr Beeching

Location: Not here. Try another castle.
Christianity may do a lot of things.

There are two things it  however, cannot do well:

Metal is one.  Stryper for example was a Christian hair-metal band.  They sucked:



and humour.



Very Happy
"mjja"

That's kinda like the injoke that accountants make say about the fact that someone accidentally raised a credit note on the wrong chart of accounts.  They'll collapse in hysterical laughter, however the rest of us will judgeth them to be lame.

However...

The Flying Spaghetti Moster is funnay!



Cartoons involving the Flying Spaghetti Monster are waaaay funnier.
  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
So many arguments of incredulility, I suppose you just have except that from a goo for you creationist.