Gradients and Curves Diagrams

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Jason R Chief Commissioner

Location: Socialist People's Republic of Yarra.

Seeing as I haven't been able to find any sources of gradients and curves diagrams online, I've scanned some in for the suburban area and put them online. Thought some of you might find them useful.

Edit 1/4/07: Sorry guys, this is offline indefinitely. In the meantime, there is a more complete (albeit not as up to date) version of the gradients and curves diagrams available online at Vicsig: Click Me.

Enjoy  Smile

Jason.

 
Byrnesy Minister for Railways

Location: Gone

Thankyou very much Jason. These shall come in very handy....

 
Jason R Chief Commissioner

Location: Socialist People's Republic of Yarra.

You're welcome, Byrnsey Smile

While I'm posting useful things - signal diagrams for most suburban locations can already be found online. Just in case anyone reading this doesn't know where to find them: Ray Gomerski's site and Mark Bau's site probably would cover most of what's out there. Both are still being maintained and updated.

If there's much interest in the country lines, I could probably get them up there as well when I've got time.

 
Byrnesy Minister for Railways

Location: Gone

I've been having a good look at the suburban gradient diagrams that Jason so kindly provided.

Previously, Holmesglen-Jordanville has often been spoken of as having the steepest gradients on the electrified network; if the diagrams are correct, this does not appear to be the case. From what I can tell Upper Ferntree Gully- Upwey is the steepest gradient you will find between two stations (or landmarks, like Cave Hill).

Upper Gully and Upwey are 2516 metres apart, but on the down towards Upwey you gain a whopping 79 metres altitude between the two stations. That is a gradient of 1:31.85.

Holmesglen-Jordanville are 1959 metres apart, and on the down towards Jordanville you gain 49 metres elevation. That works out to be a gradient of 1:39.98, which is considerably less steep than Upper Gully-Upwey.

Other interesting ones are:

Oak Park-Glenroy, gradient of 1:42.36

Macleod-Watsonia, gradient of 1:69.09

*Preston-Regent, gradient of 1:61.27

Flemington Bridge-Royal Park, gradient of 1:63.59

Gowrie-Upfield, gradient of 1:87.79

Watsonia-Greensborough, gradient of 1:75.33

Greensborough-Montmorency, gradient of 75.28

Montmorency-Eltham, gradient of 1:73.42

*Though I suspect that isn't correct- Preston-Regent is further than 919 metres, plus from my observations Regent-Reservoir has a steeper gradient than Preston-Regent.

Ivanhoe bank (Darebin-Eaglemont including Ivanhoe) is far less steep than I thought.

Overall, the Werribee, Williamstown and Sandringham lines are by far the flattest electrified lines.

Of course, these figures are only an average- for example, there are sections of Gowrie-Upfield and Flemington Bridge which are far steeper than the figures given above.

Some interesting stuff to ponder there I reckon. Smile

 
Railfan9949 Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere between Gembrook to Healesville to Seymour to Maldon

Well remember Upper Gully to Upwey is running along the foothills of Mount Dandenong..

Also obviously it's actually less steep then what it was back when it was 2'6'' and most of the road over rail bridges where once on the level railway crossing  Wink

Post edited by Railpage staff
Cave Hill, wasn't referring as a station even though there was planned to be one.. it was probably referring to the siding which I forgot when it was closed, but it was a simple siding into the quarry..
 
Byrnesy Minister for Railways

Location: Gone

Also obviously it's actually less steep then what it was back when it was 2'6'' and most of the road over rail bridges where once on the level railway crossing  Wink

- Railfan9949

 Shocked

The diagrams I have got this information from are after the wires were extended from Upper Gully to Belgrave, and after the level crossings down of Upper Gully were grade seperated; therefore, one can only shudder at the thought of how steep the gradient between Upper Gully and Upwey was before grade seperation Exclamation

 
Jason R Chief Commissioner

Location: Socialist People's Republic of Yarra.

Some interesting stuff to ponder there I reckon. Smile

- Byrnesy



Indeed. I was rather surprised how flat the Hurstbridge Line is. The steepest part is actually in the City Loop!  Shocked

 
Byrnesy Minister for Railways

Location: Gone

Some interesting stuff to ponder there I reckon. Smile

- Byrnesy



Indeed. I was rather surprised how flat the Hurstbridge Line is. The steepest part is actually in the City Loop!  Shocked

- Jason R

Not sure if I would call it flat- for example, Macleod- Eltham is one continuous roller coaster! But yes, I am surprised that it doesn't have steeper gradients than it does. I'm also surprised that Glenroy bank isn't steeper, and I'm pleasantly surprised that you gain 47 metres elevation between Gowrie and Upfield.

 
Jason R Chief Commissioner

Location: Socialist People's Republic of Yarra.

Not sure if I would call it flat- for example, Macleod- Eltham is one continuous roller coaster! But yes, I am surprised that it doesn't have steeper gradients than it does.

- Byrnesy



It's also about about as straight as a goat track Razz

Whoever surveyed the route for the Hurstbridge Line did quite a good job - looking at a contour map of the region (roughly Darebin to Diamond Creek) shows that the land isn't flat at all - certainly not in a different league to the a few of the Burnley lines - yet the line to Ringwood is a continuous up and down roller coaster of 1:40 grades and the Glen Waverley line has an enormous climb between Holmesglen and Jordanville.

Looking at the contour map of the Hurstbridge Line also clearly shows why the line to Diamond Creek is bendy and comes from Eltham and not Greensborough. Much easier to make a flat railway when following a creek up its valley  Wink

Upper Fern Tree Gully - Upwey must have been a nightmare to get a railway through. It's a wonder that the steepest grade is only 1:30...

 
Railfan9949 Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere between Gembrook to Healesville to Seymour to Maldon

Upper Fern Tree Gully - Upwey must have been a nightmare to get a railway through

- Jason R

Which is why when it was built back in the late 1890s it was done in narrow gauge, well the main reason was it was during the depression era and the government didn't have the money to do what they have done in the 1950s and the smaller gauge was the cheapest way to tackle the grades

It's a wonder that the steepest grade is only 1:30...

- Jason R

Well without even needing to look at the map to obvious see that section would have a few steep grades..  being running along the foothills of Mt D!

 
John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs

I've been having a good look at the suburban gradient diagrams that Jason so kindly provided.

Previously, Holmesglen-Jordanville has often been spoken of as having the steepest gradients on the electrified network; if the diagrams are correct, this does not appear to be the case. From what I can tell Upper Ferntree Gully- Upwey is the steepest gradient you will find between two stations (or landmarks, like Cave Hill).

Upper Gully and Upwey are 2516 metres apart, but on the down towards Upwey you gain a whopping 79 metres altitude between the two stations. That is a gradient of 1:31.85.

Holmesglen-Jordanville are 1959 metres apart, and on the down towards Jordanville you gain 49 metres elevation. That works out to be a gradient of 1:39.98, which is considerably less steep than Upper Gully-Upwey.

- Byrnesy



You are comparing average grades between stations, not the steepest grades.  If you look at the diagrams, you will see a "30" between both Upper Gully and Upwey, and also between Holmesglen and Jordanville.  This indicates that both of those sections are 1 in 30.  (The grades apply between two vertical lines, even where there is a gap in those lines.  Not all sections have a grade figure shown.)

 
S 301 Chief Commissioner

Location: in front of the computer

Thanks for posting these!

I've been trying to find some high detail grade diagrams of the Belgrave line after electrification for ages.

Just checked my curve and grade book from 1927 (I think it was), and it shows that Upper Gully to Upwey is 1:30 for most of it, actually the grade is just a little less on the up side of the bridge over Burwood Highway.

S301

 
John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs

Well remember Upper Gully to Upwey is running along the foothills of Mount Dandenong..

Also obviously it's actually less steep then what it was back when it was 2'6'' and most of the road over rail bridges where once on the level railway crossing  Wink

- Railfan9949



The diagrams I have got this information from are after the wires were extended from Upper Gully to Belgrave, and after the level crossings down of Upper Gully were grade seperated; therefore, one can only shudder at the thought of how steep the gradient between Upper Gully and Upwey was before grade seperation Exclamation
- Byrnesy



Actually, the grade on the narrow gauge line was also 1 in 30.  The narrow gauge line did not cross the road at the top of the grade on the level; the bridge at the up end of Upwey was a bridge in narrow-gauge days too.  I think the line under the bridge was lowered a bit for the broad gauge, but the broad gauge actually takes a slightly shorter route than the narrow gauge did (remember ages ago I posted a map of the original narrow gauge route where it crossed the Burwood Highway just out of the Gully?).

 
Railfan9949 Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere between Gembrook to Healesville to Seymour to Maldon

remember ages ago I posted a map of the original narrow gauge route where it crossed the Burwood Highway just out of the Gully

- John of Melbourne

Yes I do! Today's confusion isn't at Upper Gully, as I do remember from your map how the original alignment went..

Your comment about the bridge on the Up end of the station or what today is known as Morris Road, I can back up is correct (not to say your ever been otherwise on such matter.. but it's good to see I also have prove in one of my many books on the line) A picture in one of the books is dated 1930 at the location is around Upwey with 3A on a excursion train going through what looks like the steep bank before this road bridge which we still see today..

But I mean the all? the road bridges from the down end of the station to well Belgrave except for the Belgrave-Gembrook which goes across the re-located Belgrave sation which that road has been over the rails ever since the line was built.. was all level crossings when it was back in the 2'6''

I guess a possible confusion would be at Upwey township itself as the today's station was re-located? when it was re-gauge which raises question weather in the process roads has disappear, and this book's caption isn't as details as I would like sparking possible confusion..

 
John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs

remember ages ago I posted a map of the original narrow gauge route where it crossed the Burwood Highway just out of the Gully

- John of Melbourne



Yes I do! Today's confusion isn't at Upper Gully, as I do remember from your map how the original alignment went..

Your comment about the bridge on the Up end of the station or what today is known as Morris Road, I can back up is correct (not to say your ever been otherwise on such matter.. but it's good to see I also have prove in one of my many books on the line) A picture in one of the books is dated 1930 at the location is around Upwey with 3A on a excursion train going through what looks like the steep bank before this road bridge which we still see today..

But I mean the all? the road bridges from the down end of the station to well Belgrave except for the Belgrave-Gembrook which goes across the re-located Belgrave sation which that road has been over the rails ever since the line was built.. was all level crossings when it was back in the 2'6''

- Railfan9949

Yes, from Upwey station to Belgrave station there were only level crossings, and today there are only bridges.  You are correct in that, but the discussion was particularly to do with the grade from Upper Gully to Upwey.

I guess a possible confusion would be at Upwey township itself as the today's station was re-located? when it was re-gauge which raises question weather in the process roads has disappear, and this book's caption isn't as details as I would like sparking possible confusion..

- Railfan9949

The station was not really relocated, but today's station is somewhat larger (longer) than the narrow gauge station, which fitted between the Morris Road bridge and a level crossing that was part of the road that is now the main street on one side and the highway past the schools on the other side.

 
Byrnesy Minister for Railways

Location: Gone

I've been having a good look at the suburban gradient diagrams that Jason so kindly provided.

Previously, Holmesglen-Jordanville has often been spoken of as having the steepest gradients on the electrified network; if the diagrams are correct, this does not appear to be the case. From what I can tell Upper Ferntree Gully- Upwey is the steepest gradient you will find between two stations (or landmarks, like Cave Hill).

Upper Gully and Upwey are 2516 metres apart, but on the down towards Upwey you gain a whopping 79 metres altitude between the two stations. That is a gradient of 1:31.85.

Holmesglen-Jordanville are 1959 metres apart, and on the down towards Jordanville you gain 49 metres elevation. That works out to be a gradient of 1:39.98, which is considerably less steep than Upper Gully-Upwey.

- Byrnesy



You are comparing average grades between stations, not the steepest grades.  If you look at the diagrams, you will see a "30" between both Upper Gully and Upwey, and also between Holmesglen and Jordanville.  This indicates that both of those sections are 1 in 30.  (The grades apply between two vertical lines, even where there is a gap in those lines.  Not all sections have a grade figure shown.)

- John of Melbourne

Yes, I did acknowledge that the figures I'd worked out were only average ones:

Of course, these figures are only an average- for example, there are sections of Gowrie-Upfield and Flemington Bridge which are far steeper than the figures given above.

- I

Of course, that applies to Holmesglen-Jordanville as well.

 
Byrnesy Minister for Railways

Location: Gone

Whoever surveyed the route for the Hurstbridge Line did quite a good job - looking at a contour map of the region (roughly Darebin to Diamond Creek) shows that the land isn't flat at all - certainly not in a different league to the a few of the Burnley lines - yet the line to Ringwood is a continuous up and down roller coaster of 1:40 grades and the Glen Waverley line has an enormous climb between Holmesglen and Jordanville.

- Jason R

Certainly true, the Hurstbridge line from Darebin pretty much all the way through to Hurstbidge is basically perched on the sides of hills. Yet amazingly, on the whole they were able to avoid ridiculously steep grades.

Looking at the contour map of the Hurstbridge Line also clearly shows why the line to Diamond Creek is bendy and comes from Eltham and not Greensborough. Much easier to make a flat railway when following a creek up its valley  Wink

- Jason R

That is a very good point, and one that I, and I suspect many others, had never thought of when discussing the curvy route the Hurstbridge line takes after Watsonia in particular. Discounting the gradients, it would seem logical that a line to Hurstbridge would have been far better running direct from Greensborough to Diamond Creek, rather than taking the long route via Montmorency and Eltham.

But, as you point out, the land and hills in that belt of land between Greensborough and Diamond Creek (between where the Greensborough Bypass, Diamond Creek Road and St Helena Road now are) have severe gradients, and would have presented enormous challenges, which means more dollars spent, if you tried to hack a railway through it.

So therefore, they went along the sides of the hills between Greensborough and Eltham through Montmorency, and then along the valley of the Diamond Creek up to Diamond Creek, Wattle Glen and Hurstbridge from there. This would also appear to bring into question the notion that the last section of the line, from Eltham to Hurtsbridge, was an afterthought- it may very well be that the plan was always to go to Hurstbridge (or even St Andrews at one stage), but that they realised that going direct from Greensborough to Diamond Creek would be too hard and expensive- and therefore, they chose to go via Eltham.

 
Byrnesy Minister for Railways

Location: Gone

Sorry to harp on about this, but I have to admit this has been something of a learning experience for me, as I have never really dealt with gradient maps before (well, not since year 10 geography, where I was too busy perving on girls to listen properly.....).

But, I am now gettting more accustomed to reading and interpreting them....and yes, I realise now that Holmesglen-Jordanville has a section where the gradient is 1:30 (or thereabouts). The difference between Upwey- Upper Gully and Holmesglen-Jordanville is that the the former has a constant gradient of 1:30, whereas Holmesglen-Jordanville has less steep sections which brings down the average between the those two stations to about 1:39.

The average gradient between Gowrie and Upfield I worked out was around 1:87, but there are sections (namely, from about 500 metres down of Gowrie station to about 500 metres up of Upfield station) which are about 1:50.

Also, the Hurstbridge line between Macleod and Eltham is a continuous roller coaster of 1:40 and occasional 1:50 gradients; this is by far the hilliest section of the line. And, as Jason said, the Ringwood line is a continuous stretch of 1:40 gradients, up and down too.

Sorry If I'm rambling on, but these gradient graphs really are quite fascinating to me, and open up a perspective on rail lines that previously I didn't have!

 

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