The Large Erecting Shop - It's future

This thread is solely for the preservation of the large Erecting Shed. It is NOT for RTM/3801 Ltd bashing (or any other operator). The politics of the Government can come into it, but I'll expect to see discussion as to what can be done, and how to go about it. =======================================

The Rules:

Site management has been more than tolerant of all the discussion about various NSW based organisations, a historic loco and a historic shed. And no one has paid any attention to these rules given in a major thread for discussion of the above. Making contributions seen by many people as very negative.

Rather than keep this one thread, It has been decided to split up the topics. Initially we have these topics:

* The Large Erecting Shop - It's future * 3801 sightings * Rail Transport Museum * 3801 Ltd.

Other topics may be introduced -by moderators or by request via the ticket system.

NO other thread will be allowed, and will be locked/removed.

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Barred from this thread: Breaking Point

David, thanks for establishing this thread.

Unfortunately I live some distance from Sydney and cannot be actively involved in any rail heritage organisations located at or near Eveleigh.

Well, now is the time to promote the active use of the LES as a rail heritage base. Don't let the settling dust of the 3801 issue divert the passionate supporters of this cause from their path.

We must continue to pursue all avenues available to ensure this remnant of the steam age in NSW is maintained as an active base for future steam operations, restoration, maintenance, storage and display.

There are some concerns on it's future that I see are important in the short term.

1. The retention of the LES as an active rail heritage base is not supported by RailCorp, the Powerhouse Museum, ORH(StateRail), ARHS(NSW) and the NSWRTM. Only 3801 Ltd are actively pursuing it's future use. In fact many of them have thrown in the towel on this issue and see it as a dead duck.

We need to persuade these groups/organisations that they are wrong, and obtain their support.

2. RailCorp appear to be decommissioning some important infrastructure associated with access to the LES. (Maybe I am wrong, please correct me if I am.) The main areas of concern as I see it are maintaining access/storage tracks, pointwork and signalling, retention of the turntable (and anything else steam related that I have not mentioned), and provision of reasonable public access.

These matters are vital to the future ACTIVE use of the LES. We need assurances that these aspects will be maintained/provided in the short term and until the LES's future is determined.

3. The RWA has future plans for the LES and these are not rail heritage related. We need to protest long and hard that these future plans are not acceptable. Now is the time to do this whilst there is an election looming. If we make enough noise (figuratively) then we may be able to get assurances from both major political parties. If we get these then, irrespective of the election outcome, we can make sure they are enforced.

4. There are many independent supporters of the LES as an active rail heritage centre. These need to be coordinated and controlled to ensure that a united front with an active groundswell of support is presented. Many individuals can be subverted by our politicians and bureaucrats. A large, focussed and dedicated organisation can get much done.

Finally, my question is 'How do we go about doing this?' I am open to suggestions.

Happy steaming,

John

Of course I agree and I would say that 3801 ltd has not actively supported the LES either,There are many problems with this situation that can't be swept under the carpet, as it will if not already eroding their memberships or at least the enthusiasm to be active.

1. What is the role of all these organisations if their basic tenet is not saving rail heritage especially when its obviously of great importance?2. Can issues be bought off for short-term gains?3. Is the planning for rail heritage in this state being managed at all?4. Is there a business plan for long term running in NSW without the LES?5. Are all government protocols being followed and if so why wont the Government and in particular the Minister for Transport answer specific questions?6. Why are changes to the LES being made prior to an assessment by the Commonwealth Dept Environment & Heritage?7. Is corruption involved when big bickies are being flashed around as NSW does have a reputation for this since the Rum Rebellion?8. Why wont these organisations present to their membership the whole package including dumping the LES and why?

I can add another dozen questions, but lets answer these first. Before the whole lot implodes.Of course it is leaking out slowly but then the whole Government is.

I do plea with all the heritage organisation is get back to first principals , check your charters and get together and this can only be done with honesty and frankness particularly with their own membership.Save the LES!!!!

David, can I add, also as a moderator:

The moderators are currently considering the future of all discussion relating to 3801 and the connected subjects. It may be that the only option is to send it the way of Dorrigo and K183 - a flat blanket ban on any discussion relating to the subject, with immediate deletion for any threads started, and warnings issued to the people responsible.

We are not yet convinced that this is the best way to go - but it is on the cards.

The future is in your hands. Choose well.

That would not add to the debate but gag debate and let the issues fester, up until the next electionThe way to move the settlement of these issues in NSW is openness and not more behind closed doors action.One way to settle these issues is for the boards of all the organisations is to put it on the table and clear the air.You can not clear the air by closing the door.

I agree. The only way forward in this matter is by means of a full and frank debate. By this I do not mean the accusations, recriminations and name-calling that have thus far marked all threads on this and related subjects. Equally, it should not mean that posters should have to "self-censor" themselves for fear that at any moment the moderators are going to say "Right, that's it - finish - NO MORE!!" The ground rules were clearly spelt out at the beginning of this, and related, threads. I can see no reason why a debate canvassing all of the relevant issues cannot be carried on within these rules. It should be remembered that the original thread ran for some 53 pages, prior to splitting, with somewhat "robust" debate at times.

Why, then, has one of the moderators seen fit to issue a secondary warning? This would appear to be a statement of "no confidence" in posters to have a debate on 3801/3801 Ltd/RTM/the LES without resorting to vilification. This, I believe, reflects poorly upon the majority of those who have participated in this debate, and have done so within the rules. Moreover, such a threat to "play merry hell with the big stick" if anybody steps out of line in any way, shape or form creates an opportunity for those who have a vested interest in having this debate shut down for all time, by deliberately engineering a destructive smegfight.

And if the debate IS shut down, where does that leave 3801, 3801 Ltd, and the Large?

The debate should proceed - but not with such a damoclean sword hanging over both it, and anybody who posts in it.

The debate is going on and I think more people are watching now then ever before.Good stuff on Allan Jones last week I am looking for the podcast of it, Clover laid into the Gov as did 3801 Ltd.The large issue isn't dead!!!!There is a long way to go specially if they have to fix up the SMR workshop first and who is paying for that. That would come out of the Minister's bottomless cookie jar. They got money to burn I heard as long as its not the LES.I can feel something rumbling under foot but may be we have to wait for next year

The National trust have a new page on the LES and 3801the linkhttp://www.nsw.nationaltrust.org.au/news/eveleigh.asp

Updated story and photos on the National trust web site

http://www.nsw.nationaltrust.org.au/new ... k-3801.asp

At this time it is uncertain what is going to happen.

But I heard that they were going to destroy it and clear the area for apartments.

But the diesels are there and maybe the coaches too as I was told by a 3801LTD member when 3801 was down in Newcastle on the 19th of November.

Fernhill thanks for the link it makes for a good read and there is some really great pics on the page as well.loco

Interesting that the Powerhouse Museum have demanded the use of 1, 2 and 3 Roads at the Large and have applied for accrediation as an operator in their own right. The Powerhouse are also after half of the former 3801 Limited carrige fleet.

Very interesting to see how everyone is getting in position to pick over the entrails of 3801 Limited.

Those in line so far include the RTM, Powerhouse, Glenreagh and North Western Carriage Builders. No doubt the others will be circling.

Roy

Ok I know it may be off the thred but what is happening to the western side of Eveleigh?

Will the Electrics be moved on aswell as everything in those sheds?

I was under the impression all that was making way for the new Channel 7 studios and apartments, but happy to stand corrected.

This item was noted in the National Trust's electronic newsletter:

National Trust Bring back the 3801 to Eveleigh Campaign

The Trust-supported nomination of Eveleighs Large Erecting Shop and its historic locomotives such as the 3801 to the National Heritage List has been accepted, and the Commonwealth Department of Environment and Heritage has put the nomination on exhibition for public comment. Despite this, at midnight on 26 November the locomotive was moved under high security from Eveleigh to Maitland. Essential maintenance was not carried out, which could have led to damage to the 3801s working parts. Even worse, the inspection pit at Maitland collapsed, unable to hold the locomotives weight. 3801 Ltd skilled workers had to be called in to rectify the situation. The Trust has now launched a Bring Back the 3801 to Eveleigh Campaign. If you wish to contribute your time, skills or give a donation to this campaign, visit www.nsw.nationaltrust.org .au.

It seems incrediable that a heritage item as well known as Eveleigh should be systematically undermined by the Government riding roughshod over all establish planning and heritage controls.

Iain thanks for putting that up mate So it looks like the fight is not over at all.Security at Eveleigh is now the highest i have ever seen it EVERYONE is now excluded from the joint unless you are there for work purposes even just to walk down from Redfern to south Eveleigh i now have to sign in to get to my work site.RailCorp gestapo tactics yet again.

The fights not over we are just having a rest over Xmas.From what I hear there is a beauty brewing with the lead up to the election.So all those helping to save the LES thanks get behind the National Trust and have a good break.Dont bother with New Years Eve fireworks there is more to come.

is the rtm he Bermuda Triangle of NSW Rail Heritage'.. or is it dsrm or are they as bad as each other i recon that the government should return les to back to 3801 ltd and the sydney suburban car sheds should be given to the rtm. with a caveat that the les and sydney suburban car sheds can never been sold or pulled down by any group or government in power thats my thoughts fred