Trucks use rat run to avoid toll, so annoying neighbours

 
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
GROWING ROAD FREIGHT
For many residents in the inner-western suburbs of Melbourne truck traffic in these areas has grown massively in the past 15 years to levels that are close to unbearable - especially for people who live and work on the suburban streets that have been carved out as truck routes by big companies and independent contractors keen to keep costs down by avoiding toll roads. If channel deepening and the expansion of the Port of Melbourne goes ahead there will be a 5 fold rise in the numbers of container movements through the port, yet there are few plans for how to manage the increase in truck traffic. http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/people-of/2007/06/18/1182019027443.html


With technology now available, it would be possible to charge a toll on rat runs to encourage drivers to use tollway, which saves them time, petrol, wear and tear in anycase if the RTA is to be believed.

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  beastjim Chief Commissioner

Location: Sitting next to colinw, waiting for a train to Greenbank.
Up here in QLD, there isn't a toll on the Logan Motorway late at night to stop truckies rat running through the Brisbane Urban Corridor, think it has been reasonably successful. I am sure the vic gov will look at options like that.
  MelbourneCity Chief Commissioner

Only problem is Vic Govt does not own the tollroads - CityLink is owned by Transurban and Eastlink will be owned by ConnectEast.

The govt signed a contract with Transurban, and that is very difficult to change.

There are no tolls on roads in this area of Melbourne.

The solution - more taxation on the trucking industry.
  JTCs2 Deputy Commissioner

The solution - more taxation on the trucking industry.

SERIOUSLY! how do they keep letting the parents of people like you breed?
how about you go and look up the costs for rego (truck trailer dollys etc) as well as tolls FUEL 2000ltrs at a time = lots of tax just go and add it up before making youself look like a goose with comments like that pfft
JT
  MelbourneCity Chief Commissioner

Ummm - excuse me?

The trucking industry is highly inefficient over long distances and has an (unfair) competitive advantage over the rail industry - that being, the trucking companies do not have to pay for externalities like the cost of constructing a new road and all safety factors associated.

The railway industry often has to pay and maintain their infrastructure and has minimal government assistance.
  NG Sulzers Deputy Commissioner

Location: Quorn
"The trucking industry is highly inefficient over long distances and has an (unfair) competitive advantage over the rail industry - that being, the trucking companies do not have to pay for externalities like the cost of constructing a new road and all safety factors associated. "

How do you think roads are constructed??
From revenue earned from fuel and road tax (rego fees, permits etc)!! So indirectly road transport does pay for the externalities (my god, is that even a word??) it uses.
Furthermore road transport also subsidised the underperforming railways in years past to provide for rail infrastructure, so you can get right off your high horse now about road transport not paying it's way.
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
OK, we aren't saying truckies don't pay for the roads. But the pricing scheme is rather different - trucks pay a flat rate per year, and trains pay for every trip and every ton they run. So it's in the truckie's interest to run as many trips as he can, and to hell with any motorists, residents or anyone else.
  HardWorkingMan Chief Commissioner

Location: Echuca
Actually trucks do pay a per trip cost in the fuel taxes.  So if the truck doesn't make the trip it doesn't pay the tax. at around 2-2.5 km/litre for a loaded rig there is a fair pit of tax being paid.

Likewise rail doen't have to share with everyone else.  If you want trucks to pay the full cost of a road then cars / motorbikes / utes / vans / pushbikes / pedestrains etc should not be allowed on them as they didn't pay for them.

There have been attempts to build truck only roads - the Ring Road in Melbourne was one of them but it was opened to all vehicles due to political pressure.   Now it is so clogged most of the time it can not fulfil its original function.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney

There have been attempts to build truck only roads - the Ring Road in Melbourne was one of them but it was opened to all vehicles due to political pressure.   Now it is so clogged most of the time it can not fulfil its original function.
"HardWorkingMan"


If these truck-only roads had had a toll, then the please for cars to use the road would have been forestalled. Anti toll trucks only have themselves to blame.
  HardWorkingMan Chief Commissioner

Location: Echuca
Regardless of tolls etc the moment a road is built eveyone expects they hav a right to drive on it (Railpagers included).

I even read in Sydney the politicans are proposing to let people pay higher tolls to use bus lanes (about 4 - 5 times the normal toll).  This is being pushed by politicans to make themselves popular and nothing to do with sound transport planning.  This is against the bus companies wishes but they expect will gain the pollies votes at the next election.

In America there is a concept of"HOT" lanes or High Occupancy Toll lanes. These lans parallel an existing freeway and if you have 3 or more people in the car it is free.  Otherwise the more congested the higher the toll.  It works on actual congestion and not times and the fines are huge by Australian standards if you don't comply - try over US$1000. This is what I believe we should be doing in Austrailia.
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
And who's going to police it?
  HardWorkingMan Chief Commissioner

Location: Echuca
And who's going to police it?
"mjja"
In the US it is enforced by the police and the fines goto consolidated revenue (as do fines here, paid up reminders go to Citylink. fines are enforced, collected, and kept by the govt.)
  PHRED Assistant Commissioner

Location: Looking Around.
Actually trucks do pay a per trip cost in the fuel taxes.  So if the truck doesn't make the trip it doesn't pay the tax. at around 2-2.5 km/litre for a loaded rig there is a fair pit of tax being paid.
"HardWorkingMan"


That may be so, BUT it is claimed back as an operating expense at the end of the financial year. So therefore they do not pay their share. Add to this the fact that rail also pays (or did pay) fuel taxes. Most of which went to improve roads not rail.

Likewise rail doen't have to share with everyone else.
"HardWorkingMan"


Rail does have to share. With other operators, passenger trains, track machines & road traffic at x-ings.

If you want trucks to pay the full cost of a road then cars / motorbikes / utes / vans / pushbikes / pedestrains etc should not be allowed on them as they didn't pay for them
"HardWorkingMan"


So what you are saying here, is that the registration fees, taxes etc. that the ordinary motorist pays should not give them the right to share a road with trucks.

There have been attempts to build truck only roads - the Ring Road in Melbourne was one of them but it was opened to all vehicles due to political pressure.   Now it is so clogged most of the time it can not fulfil its original function.
"HardWorkingMan"


And who's taxes were being utilised to build these roads? The same taxes that are giving road transport: town by-passes, dual roads, grade easing, road straightening & improved surfaces. All of this at the expense of rail transport. Compare the money that is spent on roads compared to rail. There is no level playing field.

Regards
PHRED
  HardWorkingMan Chief Commissioner

Location: Echuca
Phred,

1) as far as I am aware rail does not pay fuel taxes - it is exempt like farm vehicles - when it did in the past it was reimbursed.  The trucks on the road in general don't have that exemption (I think there may be one for remote areas but they aren't served by ail anyway)

2) the Rail Access fees are also a cost of doing business and written off against income as an expense at the end of the year so no different to rego or any other business expense

3) The point was the rail industry has total control over its corridor (yes there are level crossings but you don't share every inch of your working area with other vehicle drivers that don't know/care what they are doing.)  The average person doesn't expect to be able to fit rail wheels to their car and drive down the railway line yet they expect to be able to purchase a pushbike and ride it on the road without knowing the rules.  The trucking industry has to.

4) Yes motorists pay rego etc that was part of my point.  There were special levies in Victoria put on road diesal fuel to fund the Ring Road as a truck corridor.  Back then about the only vehicles using diesel on the road were trucks so effectively trucks paid for the ring road (or 99% to allow for the occassional diesel 4wd) but when it opened it was opened for all road users.

5) I believe trucks should pay their way but so should cars, 4wd, motorbikes, pushbikes etc.  I have a couple of restored vehicles that do about 2500 miles each in a year. I pay rego for both of them at the same rate as my wife's car that gets used daily yet they would do less damage as they cover fewer miles.  There is no easy way to determine usage that some determined people couldn't get around. (eg when FBT was first introduced the tax office considered Utes and 4wd were exempt as company vehicles as they were considered to be needed as part of a trade.  As a result accountants, solicitors etc started buying utes and 4wd to avoid the tax.  The Tax Office changed its ruling so that all vehicles are subject to FBT to close this loophole)

6) I believe the funding (whether through fuel taxes or grants) should be proportionate to usage to be fair.  When the rail industry starts caring about its customers in the way most trucking companies do there will be a swing back to rail.  People don't like being treated like dirt.   There is also the issue that almost everyone in the rail industry drives road vehicles but not everyone who drives road vehicles travels on trains - often for legitimate reasons and sometimes through laziness and fear.
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner



There have been attempts to build truck only roads - the Ring Road in Melbourne was one of them but it was opened to all vehicles due to political pressure.   Now it is so clogged most of the time it can not fulfil its original function.
"HardWorkingMan"


I'm sorry if I appear skeptical but I find the notion that the intention of the Ring Road being road freight only to not be credible.  The Melbourne freeway network plan grew out of a master plan dating back to 1969. But I'm happy to stand corrected.

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