North East Line to Standard Gauge

 
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

Well if the good peoples of New South Cactus or Cactoria decided to travel across "the line" they may even end up spending their dough on food accommodation etc and unwittingly feed the other states local economies in some small part .
Last time I railed into Melbourne I stayed in the Batman on Collins and toured around the Dandenongs and did another up part of the Yarra .


Using your argument, V/Line should have a fleet of subsidised planes touring the world to pick up prospective spenders to bring them to Melbourne.

No thanks.  Use Victorian taxes to provide decent transport to Victorians first.

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  thewanderer Station Master

The West Line signal at Sisley Ave (heading towards Melbourne) was clear just now, when I was driving across the overpass. Presumably the XPT was using the main platform today.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Ah well , maybe the taxpayers in NSW could cough up a 4th set and bribe PacNat into supplying something - say a G class to haul it around .
Even with freight gearing I think one of our (PacNats) Gs could run as well or better than a long legged N .
  tranzitjim Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
One of those two Weipa locomotives which is now on mainline network...

....One looks like an N Class
.....It was built at the same time as the N Class
.....On its delivery, it even got painted into the V/Line livery of the time.


Perhaps this could form part of the V/Line Standard gauge fleet?
  UP9372 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
Daly Waters thank goodness u r not in charge of transport policy as most policies r now formulated in the national interest and not state parochial interests.

In fact, I would like to see an AMTRAK type service set up funded by the Commonwealth who will decide which services should be run that service the most passengers at the most economical cost. Suburban & some urban services could remain under the control of the various states but that will depend on funding requirements.

The states are the greatest brake on progress in Australia today & really should be abolished in the national interests. Such silly projects as the RFR in Victoria could be given better scrutiny before money is wasted in obsolete brad gauge lines.  The only money that should be spent on rail in Victoria is standardising viable lines & the rest abandoned (again suburban lines R A special case).

My views will probably give Daly Waters a heart attack but some people have to face the reality that we cannot continue to throw taxpayers money around willy nilly. I want more infrastructure spending but only where it provides a reasonable return compared to the costs.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

Daly Waters thank goodness u r not in charge of transport policy as most policies r now formulated in the national interest and not state parochial interests.

In fact, I would like to see an AMTRAK type service set up funded by the Commonwealth who will decide which services should be run that service the most passengers at the most economical cost. Suburban & some urban services could remain under the control of the various states but that will depend on funding requirements.

The states are the greatest brake on progress in Australia today & really should be abolished in the national interests. Such silly projects as the RFR in Victoria could be given better scrutiny before money is wasted in obsolete brad gauge lines.  The only money that should be spent on rail in Victoria is standardising viable lines & the rest abandoned (again suburban lines R A special case).

My views will probably give Daly Waters a heart attack but some people have to face the reality that we cannot continue to throw taxpayers money around willy nilly. I want more infrastructure spending but only where it provides a reasonable return compared to the costs.
"UP9372"
Just like the do on comparable road projects eh? Rolling Eyes
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I have an old now defunct rail magazine somewhere that covered the then new GML10 , goes into all the nitty gritty about the thing that looked like a heavy N with a 12 cylinder 710 in it - from memory .

Again I'm not 100% sure but I think the paint codes did vary slightly from what VLine was using at that time .
I believe it was built at the old Clyde Engineering factory at Kelso near Bathurst .
Last time I saw those two ex West Aus engines one was in Broadmeadow Yard near Newcastle and the other at EDI Cardiff .
Its not impossible that the Super N would turn up down south though it could be worth more hired out to freight operators .
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

My views will probably give Daly Waters a heart attack


I will actually agree with you 100%.......we should abolish the states.  They are the biggest impediment to progress in Australia.

but some people have to face the reality that we cannot continue to throw taxpayers money around willy nilly.


Too right.  Public transport is costing the taxpayer an absolute fortune these days.  Whilst money needs to be spent to improve the efficiency of public transport, it needs to be done wisely and not wasted.  When Victoria's public transport operator has no obligation whatsoever to extend services into NSW, it shouldn't do so.

I want more infrastructure spending but only where it provides a reasonable return compared to the costs.


Once again I agree wholeheartedly.  The costs of extending a train from Albury to Wagga Wagga for V/Line would be quite substantial.  

There is the fuel and wear and tear on loco and carriages to start with.  Then the crews will need to go to rest at Wagga Wagga, involving motel costs as well as the extra crew hours.

Considering the Albury train is quite full now, any passengers from Wagga Wagga (which would be at no higher revenue than Albury, $42 or so maximum I believe) would only be taking away seats from Victorian passengers - unless extra carriages were put on, again, at considerable expense.
  Sir Thomas Bent Minister for Railways

Location: Banned
which would be at no higher revenue than Albury, $42 or so maximum I believe
"DalyWaters"
How far by rail is Wagga?  I'll let you know what the cost would be tomorrow based on current rates.
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
How far by rail is Wagga?  I'll let you know what the cost would be tomorrow based on current rates.
"Sir Thomas Bent"

The ARTC map for VIC has too many increasing/decreasing km posts for me to think about at 2am, but the distance Albury-Wagga is 125.08km.

http://www.artc.com.au/Content.aspx?p=37
VIC map
NorthEast map

That aside, the medium-term plan for V/Line is reportedly to abolish all loco-hauled trains with the exception of 11 5-car N sets hauled by N Class locomotives. If three of those 11 sets are required to run the Wagga service (2 in service, 1 backup), that leaves only eight sets available for the Bairnsdale, Warrnambool, Swan Hill and Shepparton runs, or two each in service and none spare, unless Bairnsdale can share with one of the other runs. If all passenger services on the NorthEast had been handed over to ARTC or Countrylink, that would have given V/Line more rollingstock to use on the BG routes.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

The distance from Sourthern cross to Albury would be around 312 kilometers. In NSW Wagga is at Km 521.16 and Albury at Km 646.244 making the distance slightly over 125 kilometers.

Secondly no single DE locomotive will have enough power to run a 130KPH pass to a very tight timetable. The obvious solution if one is going to use locomotives is something like the push pull H sets or the XPT with a loco a both ends. Even then you are going to need two at least 2400HP loco's.

Thirdly before ANYONE starts decideing to pull up railway lines one might consider something politicians NEVER do and that is think of the future (not just tomorrow but 20 years down the track). Fuel prices in the future will be a very major consideration. The advantage rail has over road is the use of a great deal less fuel per tonne kilometer than road can ever acheive. This will likely make rail far more important than it is now.

Woodford
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
Secondly no single DE locomotive will have enough power to run a 130KPH pass to a very tight timetable. The obvious solution if one is going to use locomotives is something like the push pull H sets or the XPT with a loco a both ends. Even then you are going to need two at least 2400HP loco's.
"woodford"

Therefore, with 11x 5-carriage N sets, intermixed with D, DN and PH vans that have had their head-end power removed, and 25 N class locomotives available, you end up with 11 identical consists of:

N - D - ACN - BRN - BDN - BN - BN - N
507t, 169.4m, 3360kW.
300 2nd Class, 52 1st Class passengers
130kph max speed (assuming new/upgraded bogies)

The leaves three spare N Class locomotives which could rotate with the above for maintenance; one spare on SG and two spare on BG. And three spare ex-PCJ cars for larger luggage loads, although the gunzel in me wants to say that the code "PCJ" can be expanded to Power, Conductor, Joint-Stock so after the HEP generators are removed, they could be retitled as "DL" for long, luggage cars.
  Xgentric Chief Commissioner

Perhaps all non-metropolitan govt-owned passenger services should be run by the Commonwealth, and avoid any inter-state issues.

If this were the case, maybe the Murwillumbah XPT would still be running. It was the most popular of all the XPT services.
  SamTheMan79 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Geelong
Secondly no single DE locomotive will have enough power to run a 130KPH pass to a very tight timetable. The obvious solution if one is going to use locomotives is something like the push pull H sets or the XPT with a loco a both ends. Even then you are going to need two at least 2400HP loco's.
"woodford"

Therefore, with 11x 5-carriage N sets, intermixed with D, DN and PH vans that have had their head-end power removed, and 25 N class locomotives available, you end up with 11 identical consists of:

N - D - ACN - BRN - BDN - BN - BN - N
507t, 169.4m, 3360kW.
300 2nd Class, 52 1st Class passengers
130kph max speed (assuming new/upgraded bogies)

The leaves three spare N Class locomotives which could rotate with the above for maintenance; one spare on SG and two spare on BG. And three spare ex-PCJ cars for larger luggage loads, although the gunzel in me wants to say that the code "PCJ" can be expanded to Power, Conductor, Joint-Stock so after the HEP generators are removed, they could be retitled as "DL" for long, luggage cars.
"SteamtoStay"


What loco's are you then going to use to run the existing H sets on the Bacchus Marsh/Melton runs in the interim?
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
What loco's are you then going to use to run the existing H sets on the Bacchus Marsh/Melton runs in the interim?
"SamTheMan79"

The H sets are just about dead anyway. The above is once they've been scrapped or given to preservation groups.

Although in the short term, you could have:
4x P - BTH - BIH - BH - BH - BIH - BH - BCH - P sets (Melton 40min services)
6x N - BTH - BIH - BH(L) - BCH sets (Seymour 40min services)
8x N - BN - BN - BDN - BRN - ACN - D sets (Warrnambool, Swan Hill, Shepparton, Bairnsdale each 3 per day)
3x N - BN - BN - BDN - BRN - ACN - PCJ - N sets (Wagga Wagga 3 per day)
3x N - BTN - BTN - BTN - BTN - BTN - BZN - BCZ* (Geelong peak only)
With Sprinters and Vlocities running all other services.

*2 sets with BCZ, 1 set with leftover ACN but advertised as second class

Conversions required:
3x ACN -> BN
2x ACN -> BDN
6x BRN -> BDN

2x BTH(L) -> BH(L)
2x BCH(L) -> BH(L)
2x BCH -> BH
3x BTH -> BH

DN 403 -> D 338
PH 451 -> D 332

Spares:
2x N Class (Both BG in workshop; run Wagga service with 2x N sets; third always in workshop)
4x Y Class (1 Geelong, 2 Southern Cross, 1 under maintenance)
4x A Class (Stored)
2x BIH
1x BCH
4x MTH (Although they're controlled by Metro; if they can go to V/Line then these plus the 2 BIHs inserted in the Seymour sets)
2x BTN
3x PH (Kept at Southern Cross for emergency use when HEP dies on a consist)

By 2015, scrap/sell all Z sets; add their three N Class locos to the "spare" pool. Also get rid of the A Class locos.

By 2020, scrap/sell all H sets; that gives 25 N Class locos to 11 N sets.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Secondly no single DE locomotive will have enough power to run a 130KPH pass to a very tight timetable. The obvious solution if one is going to use locomotives is something like the push pull H sets or the XPT with a loco a both ends. Even then you are going to need two at least 2400HP loco's.
"woodford"

Therefore, with 11x 5-carriage N sets, intermixed with D, DN and PH vans that have had their head-end power removed, and 25 N class locomotives available, you end up with 11 identical consists of:

N - D - ACN - BRN - BDN - BN - BN - N
507t, 169.4m, 3360kW.
300 2nd Class, 52 1st Class passengers
130kph max speed (assuming new/upgraded bogies)

The leaves three spare N Class locomotives which could rotate with the above for maintenance; one spare on SG and two spare on BG. And three spare ex-PCJ cars for larger luggage loads, although the gunzel in me wants to say that the code "PCJ" can be expanded to Power, Conductor, Joint-Stock so after the HEP generators are removed, they could be retitled as "DL" for long, luggage cars.
"SteamtoStay"


Would not that be something to see.
Having no trouble picturing it I may say.

Woodford
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting for the sky to fall, the seas to rise... and seeing a train on the SSFL!
Funny what people want governments to do whilst demanding lower taxes  Rolling Eyes

Fact is that the recent spurt of funding for rail is more to do with freight than moving people.  Exclamation
  thewanderer Station Master

Daly Waters thank goodness u r not in charge of transport policy as most policies r now formulated in the national interest and not state parochial interests.

In fact, I would like to see an AMTRAK type service set up funded by the Commonwealth who will decide which services should be run that service the most passengers at the most economical cost. Suburban & some urban services could remain under the control of the various states but that will depend on funding requirements.

The states are the greatest brake on progress in Australia today & really should be abolished in the national interests. Such silly projects as the RFR in Victoria could be given better scrutiny before money is wasted in obsolete brad gauge lines.  The only money that should be spent on rail in Victoria is standardising viable lines & the rest abandoned (again suburban lines R A special case).

My views will probably give Daly Waters a heart attack but some people have to face the reality that we cannot continue to throw taxpayers money around willy nilly. I want more infrastructure spending but only where it provides a reasonable return compared to the costs.
"UP9372"


Good to see another economic rationalist on here. However, us Victorians will decide how to spend - or waste - our tax payer dollars ourselves thank you very much. The feds can't even put the policies in place to deal with the states and the more broader issue of acting "in national interest" (whatever that means?). Does anyone seriously trust Canberra with money?
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
Does anyone seriously trust Canberra with money?
"thewanderer"

Does anyone have a choice?
  thewanderer Station Master

Thirdly before ANYONE starts decideing to pull up railway lines one might consider something politicians NEVER do and that is think of the future (not just tomorrow but 20 years down the track). Fuel prices in the future will be a very major consideration. The advantage rail has over road is the use of a great deal less fuel per tonne kilometer than road can ever acheive. This will likely make rail far more important than it is now.

Woodford
"woodford"


This sadly never seems to come in to it. At least we can aim to preserve former rights of way, through rail trails and what not, until they can be economically justified. Would be nice to see freight trains running once more to places such as Corowa, Mt Gambier and Canberra.
  Sir Thomas Bent Minister for Railways

Location: Banned

This sadly never seems to come in to it. At least we can aim to preserve former rights of way, through rail trails and what not, until they can be economically justified. Would be nice to see freight trains running once more to places such as Corowa, Mt Gambier and Canberra.
"thewanderer"
Or Alvie, or 16 1/2 miles past Millewa South, or Lette, or Stony Crossing, or Briagolong, or Woodside, or Whitfield, or Outtrim, or Morkalla, or Red Hill, or Wensleydale...  They're all be as useful as giving a university education to Paris Hilton.

The list of useless railway lines that never should have been built is massive.

Just because you like trains doesn't mean they were ever useful in all their applications.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
.......us Victorians will decide how to spend - or waste - our tax payer dollars ourselves thank you very much.....
"thewanderer"

Have you factored in the additional cost to the taxpayers of passport control and flagpoles at the border?
  Sir Thomas Bent Minister for Railways

Location: Banned
Looks like it is about 435km by rail to Wagga.  That outs it into Zone AA.  The fare off-peak would be $33.40 one-way full fare and $16.70 concession; the weekend concession rate at peak would be $26.20. Double it for a return.
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
Looks like it is about 435km by rail to Wagga.  That outs it into Zone AA.  The fare off-peak would be $33.40 one-way full fare and $16.70 concession; the weekend concession rate at peak would be $26.20. Double it for a return.
"Sir Thomas Bent"

Allowing for inflation and currency conversion, how much would the VR have charged in say the 1960's for a similar distance?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland

This sadly never seems to come in to it. At least we can aim to preserve former rights of way, through rail trails and what not, until they can be economically justified. Would be nice to see freight trains running once more to places such as Corowa, Mt Gambier and Canberra.
"thewanderer"
Or Alvie, or 16 1/2 miles past Millewa South, or Lette, or Stony Crossing, or Briagolong, or Woodside, or Whitfield, or Outtrim, or Morkalla, or Red Hill, or Wensleydale...  They're all be as useful as giving a university education to Paris Hilton.

The list of useless railway lines that never should have been built is massive.

Just because you like trains doesn't mean they were ever useful in all their applications.
"Sir Thomas Bent"


What are you saying about Outtrim ?
The line was built to haul coal to Melbourne, after coal traffic finished the line was mostly abandon and quickly disposed of.

The line served It's purpose as It was needed for.

Sorry not to much on the subject of the North East Standard Gauge Railway.

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