North East Line to Standard Gauge

 
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

The allowable speeds on Class-2 dual gauge track are 80 kmh for bg and 115kmh for standard gauge. The major risk factor is brake blocks and parts of the brake rigging falling off any gauge train and forming a wedge within the gap between the second and third rails .

Four rail track -  its correct name is gauntlet track where the rails of two gauges are laid within each other as with the Eastern most track over Dudley St which is the States only current piece of gauntlet track .  Forget this in mainline use over any distance because of the cost of extra wide special sleepers, special turnouts and the necessity to have wider earthworks, formations and  most importantly wider bridges (piers and beams and decking).

Think outside the square ; south of Seymour a very workable solution would be to use the existing Up bg line basically converted to sg, but using bits of it dual gauged as necessary and connected to the remaining bg line to provide bg crossing loops as necessary for the remaining bg  passenger services . Dual gauge all the way would not be required for the volume of bg traffic, and dual gauge track is much more expensive to maintain .

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  Alphabet Train Controller

Location: Moonee Ponds

Four rail track -  its correct name is gauntlet track where the rails of two gauges are laid within each other as with the Eastern most track over Dudley St which is the States only current piece of gauntlet track ...
"kuldalai"


Sorry to nitpick, but I'm pretty sure that isn't the state's only gauntlet track- what about Ford Sidings to Somerton? I was under the impression that was converted to dual gauge gauntlet track in 1962-63.

I guess Dudley Street is the only currently used gauntlet track in the state, however, as Ford Sidings-Somerton doesn't currently see use.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
A final decision on handing over of the NE BG to ARTC was supposed to be made at a meeting of the Victorian cabinet today.

Now spoil my day by saying there is no such meeting.

Bing
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik

Four rail track -  its correct name is gauntlet track where the rails of two gauges are laid within each other as with the Eastern most track over Dudley St which is the States only current piece of gauntlet track ...
"kuldalai"


Sorry to nitpick, but I'm pretty sure that isn't the state's only gauntlet track- what about Ford Sidings to Somerton? I was under the impression that was converted to dual gauge gauntlet track in 1962-63.

I guess Dudley Street is the only currently used gauntlet track in the state, however, as Ford Sidings-Somerton doesn't currently see use.
"Alphabet"


Somerton to Fords at Upfield is BG and SG tracks on the same sleepers (ie gauntleted track).
  T411 Moderator

Location: Somewhere
Story that has started to do the rounds in the last week or so is that RTS didn't have their lease renewed on the old SG carriage shed at South Dynon and after they move out VLP will be taking over. Apparently this is so they can store their SG carriages in Melbourne between runs.

Food for thought Smile
  Hitachi_Man Chief Commissioner

Location: Melbourne.
Story that has started to do the rounds in the last week or so is that RTS didn't have their lease renewed on the old SG carriage shed at South Dynon and after they move out VLP will be taking over. Apparently this is so they can store their SG carriages in Melbourne between runs.

Food for thought Smile
"T411"
The wheels are in motion!

Do we think that there will be some N class and N set with massive "STANDARD GAUGE" stickers on them, to differentiate them from the BG stock?
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
Story that has started to do the rounds in the last week or so is that RTS didn't have their lease renewed on the old SG carriage shed at South Dynon and after they move out VLP will be taking over. Apparently this is so they can store their SG carriages in Melbourne between runs.

Food for thought Smile
"T411"
The wheels are in motion!

Do we think that there will be some N class and N set with massive "STANDARD GAUGE" stickers on them, to differentiate them from the BG stock?
"Hitachi_Man"


Nah, probably just a different coat of paint - with all the money they're spending on this, it's no wonder we're still refurbishing/using H sets!

Letsee:
Grey with red = BG pax
Grey with Purple = BG RFR
Grey with ??? = SG pax - suggestions?

Or, they'll just paint it pink with purple spots - I remember someone did this to a WCR R class with photoshop (?).
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Isn't the other issue with DG, that for BG/SG, you have a max limitation on rail size and you can only use timber sleepers.

With the money the Vic's will save not having to maintain a seperate BG route nth of Craigburn, it would probably be more than worth it to convert the Oaklands branch. Certainly the rail industry on the whole that use the NE line will be better off having (hopefully) a higher standard of double track, rather than 3 lines offering less due to economics.

As for V/line running to Wagga, its just like CL operating Interstate, if the Vic and NSW govts both believe its of greater value to the Albury-WW community then it may happen, but not holding my breath. Once the ARTC have finished the M-S upgrade, there should be some justification for running 3 x train a day M-S. Or maybe 2 the whole way and 1 in each direction doing a return from say Albury to Syd and WW to Mel.

Regards
Shane
  luznug Banned

Location: Banned
Fisher and the Task Force finished up on Friday. Anyone know what their plans are this week?
  Nexas The Ghost of George Stephenson

Isn't the other issue with DG, that for BG/SG, you have a max limitation on rail size and you can only use timber sleepers.

With the money the Vic's will save not having to maintain a seperate BG route nth of Craigburn, it would probably be more than worth it to convert the Oaklands branch. Certainly the rail industry on the whole that use the NE line will be better off having (hopefully) a higher standard of double track, rather than 3 lines offering less due to economics.

As for V/line running to Wagga, its just like CL operating Interstate, if the Vic and NSW govts both believe its of greater value to the Albury-WW community then it may happen, but not holding my breath. Once the ARTC have finished the M-S upgrade, there should be some justification for running 3 x train a day M-S. Or maybe 2 the whole way and 1 in each direction doing a return from say Albury to Syd and WW to Mel.

Regards
Shane
"RTT_Rules"


There will still be a seperate single track BG line with crossing loops operating between Craigieburn and Shepparton.
  BJ Titsengolf That's Numberwang!

Location: Right here, right now, right here, right now...
Fisher and the Task Force finished up on Friday. Anyone know what their plans are this week?
"luznug"

A few pots down the pub followed by a rub and tug? Maybe a quick round of golf?
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Sources suggest that while the Fischer Report was delivered on time, it might be late January before the 20+ recommendations are publicly known.

Meanwhile the hand over of the Seymour to Albury BG is not a matter of IF, but rather WHEN?

Bing
  73LJWhiteSL Deputy Commissioner

Location: South East Melbourne Surburbs
Maybe this isn't the right place to post about this, but i noted that concreate sleepers have been placed in piles alongside the train line up near Wodonga I think?

Steve
  VRfan Moderator

Location: In front of my computer :-p
I would assume they are for the works ARTC is currently doing on the existing standard gauge
  gy Junior Train Controller

I am ever hopeful that the "Country" Lines of Victoria will be standardized as has been announced coutless times previously. We always seem to be close to an announcement but never quite there for reasons that are never disclosed.
Off topic , however?
Mr Fishers report had better be full of strong recommendations as Country General Freight is still declining with Oil Products to Mildura now going by road as the local depot has been closed.
Mr Fishers group hopefully addressed issues such as these as it is the Oil Company that shuts the Facility then loads up the road system further with the added maintance cost of maintaining the road. I am led to believe the reason the Country Depots are being shut is not because rail is not viable but to avoid the problem of rail transports " double handling" in the supply chain. Well I have certainly gone off the post name ; I just wish once and for all we just lay some standard gauge track even on wooden sleepers as they can be replaced later on when the stupidity of not using concrete is realized. The track gauge is more important than the sleepers in this case just to get the project rolling.
PTE
  Henry Herby

Location: Victoria
Will broad gauge steam specials be able to run?
I don't want it to be No.  Crying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sadSadCrying or Very sad
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney


Think outside the square ; south of Seymour a very workable solution would be to use the existing Up bg line basically converted to sg, but using bits of it dual gauged as necessary and connected to the remaining bg line to provide bg crossing loops as necessary for the remaining bg  passenger services . Dual gauge all the way would not be required for the volume of bg traffic, and dual gauge track is much more expensive to maintain .
"kuldalai"


Using the BG line south of Seymour for alternating sections of double BG and double SG would be a pretty reasonable solution.
  LowndesJ515 #TeamRog

Location: Not in Victoria
Will broad gauge steam specials be able to run?
I don't want it to be No.  Crying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sadSadCrying or Very sad
"Henry"


When the Tracks go to Standard Gauge, i doubt very much that Broad Gauge Steam will run on Standard Gauge  Rolling Eyes
  NottaGunzel Banned

Location: Banned
Will broad gauge steam specials be able to run?
I don't want it to be No.  Crying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sadSadCrying or Very sad
"Henry"



Hopefully you're not suggesting that a long overdue forward move for Rail Transport in Victoria be waylaid because a bunch of gunzels want to see Steam Specials on the BG ??

Having been a "lurker" on these forums for over a year , it's sometimes amazed me how far some thoughts are from the REAL WORLD !

Hopefully the "Fisher Report" will have some sort of VISION FOR THE FUTURE  -  and I'm sure it will  -  but then the problem will be enacting these visions  -  and that comes back to Government. Obviously many of these recommendations will be long term things and go beyond the NEXT ELECTION DATE.

We need some sort of BLUEPRINT FOR THE FUTURE and we may well get that  -  Tim Fisher , despite the hat , is a very astute and savvy sort of bloke. However , I fear we'll end up with another hotch potch outcome when it comes to the actual adoption of the recommendations.

I love nothing more than the sound and sight of a Steam Train  -  the romance of yesteryear  -  and applaud the work of folks like SRHC and SRV.

Hopefully Henry's comment is merely expressing remorse at a possible result  -  but some would put it forward as an argument against.

This is a comment and observation from someone OUTSIDE the Rail Industry  -  but I am in The REAL WORLD.
  BJ Titsengolf That's Numberwang!

Location: Right here, right now, right here, right now...
My guess as to the reports contents.

1. Rationalisation and consolidation of the Grain infrastructure along with several line closures would result in efficiencies and will be recommended.

2. Hints that Gauge conversion would open up the network to competition and would have cost benefits to rail freight users.

3. Comments on the negative impact of the RFR project on the operation of Broad gauge freight.

4. Blame for poor maintenance to be put on organisations that aren't around anymore.

So in summary, nothing new.
  wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
Do we think that there will be some N class and N set with massive "STANDARD GAUGE" stickers on them, to differentiate them from the BG stock?
"Hitachi_Man"
V/Line have some interesting decisions to make regarding passenger trains on the Northeast - regauge to Shepparton as well as Albury and run a larger pool of loco hauled stock, or leave Shep out and run it as an extension of Seymour services with railcars (in the same way as Ararat / Ballarat).
  dalts 1985 Banned

Location: Banned
Do we think that there will be some N class and N set with massive "STANDARD GAUGE" stickers on them, to differentiate them from the BG stock?
"Hitachi_Man"
V/Line have some interesting decisions to make regarding passenger trains on the Northeast - regauge to Shepparton as well as Albury and run a larger pool of loco hauled stock, or leave Shep out and run it as an extension of Seymour services with railcars (in the same way as Ararat / Ballarat).
"wongm"


I think the best thing to do, is extend the current VLocity order, build 5 new 5 car sets (DM-MT-MT-MT-DM) this the first of the next generation VLocity. The Long Distance VLocity, the West End DM would be first class & have the buffet Module simular to that currently on the CLK Xploders in service in N.S.W... THE MT Trailers would be exactly the same as those being built now.

That leaves all the N's & N Sets for BG work then, maybe the freq. of services to places such as Bairnsdale/W'bool & Swan Hill could be increased. W'bool & Bairnsdale to a minimim 4 services each-way-a-day & Swan Hill to 3 Services each-way-a-day, Echuca would also gain a daily return N Set operated service.

Mildura doesn't get a look in, nor does it serve to, (the locals have already gotten used to the fact their train servcies will never return, so theirs no need to bother, continuing to think they ever will Exclamation ) as it would be SG in the end & the order for 5 SG Next Generation Long Distance VLocity sets is more then enough to cover a 3 days a week service to Mildura (should the service ever return, which is doubtful at best), a daily return service to Wagga Wagga & 3x daily-each-way services to Albury/Wodonga & Shepparton.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
FYI, the August 2007 newsletter of the Perway Institute - NSW Section has a diagram and some pics of dual BG/SG sleepers.

http://www.permanentwayinstitution.com/
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

Mildura doesn't get a look in, nor does it serve to, (the locals have already gotten used to the fact their train servcies will never return, so theirs no need to bother, continuing to think they ever will


Which locals have you been speaking to?

The people of Mildura voted Russell Savage out when he couldn't deliver the passenger train.  

maybe the freq. of services to places such as Bairnsdale/W'bool & Swan Hill could be increased. W'bool & Bairnsdale to a minimim 4 services each-way-a-day & Swan Hill to 3 Services each-way-a-day,


What for?  To dilute the number of passengers even further between the trains?

There seems to be a ned to provide different patronage numbers for Swan Hill and Mildura.  To get a passenger train back, Mildura needs full trains.  Meanwhile, the Swan Hill carries the Mildura passengers and a handful of others.
  M636C Minister for Railways

FYI, the August 2007 newsletter of the Perway Institute - NSW Section has a diagram and some pics of dual BG/SG sleepers.

http://www.permanentwayinstitution.com/
"awsgc24"


Or you could just look at Platform 1 at Southern Cross, which is laid with concrete dual gauge sleepers. The view between the two close rails is a bit tight but everything else is pretty clear.

I note that the new single gauge sleepers being laid on the North East are all marked "47" (ie are suitable for 47kg/m rail). I'd hate to think that an upgrade to 60kg/m needed new sleepers.

M636C

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