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GeoffreyHansen
Minister for Railways
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
Location: Waiting for the next commuter service to Bathurst
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Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:57 am
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I've read suggestions at times in these forums for US commuter type trains to be run say between Melbourne and Geelong or Melbourne and Melton but I was wondering if a similar idea could be used in some Australian regional cities but on on a much smaller scale?
You could have say a small diesel locomotive with two or so single deck trailers running from smaller towns into a regional centre just in peak hours and with the locomotives available for use on freight trains at other times of the day.
You could probably improve on the North American practice by integrating ticketing in with local bus services so that passengers aren't stranded outside of peak hours or even ask the local bus companies to look after ticketing and other services.
Could such an idea work in say Coffs Harbour or Townsville or Cairns?
If Canberra had a station closer to its CBD such an idea would possibly work there.
Just a thought.
Bring the 3900s back to Brisbane
Bring Karlsruhe Tramtrains to Australian cities
Extend the proposed Metro to Taylor Square
Extend the Gold Coast line to the Tweed
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xxxxlbear
Token Booking Clerk
Joined: Oct 30, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
Location: Geelong
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Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:42 am
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Just out of interest, if I have the right line of thinking, a version of your suggestion already exists, and should be taken up by other rail operators.
CityRail operates the Hunter railcar in the Hunter region of NSW region, servicing stations inbetween Newcastle and Maitland, plus Scone & Dungog if I am not mistaken.
Looking briefly at the weekday timetable, Scone seems to fit your proposal perfectly, with timetabled services occuring during peak periods only between Newcastle and Scone.
There's no reason why local rural 'commuter' trains shouldn't work if well publized.
Some examples could be small scale train sets that stop all stations between:
*Moe and/or Morwell <-> Traralgon and/or Sale
*Benalla and/or Wangaratta <-> Wodonga and/or Albury
*Kyneton and/or Castlemaine <-> Bendigo [with Bendigo suburban stations possibly re-opened]
*Marshall and/or Geelong <-> Ballarat
The only consideration I would have is comparing the costs of operation a railcar or loco + 1 or 2 carriages against a road coach. At what point does the cost of operating a loco plus carriages become more expensive to operate than the equivilent number of road coahes?
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Somebody in the WWW
Comeng Gunzel
Joined: Oct 08, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
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Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:19 pm
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| xxxlbear wrote: | *Moe and/or Morwell <-> Traralgon and/or Sale
*Kyneton and/or Castlemaine <-> Bendigo [with Bendigo suburban stations possibly re-opened |
Aren't those already serviced adequately by services to/from Melbourne for passengers making local trips? There is an hourly service to Melbourne on those lines now, why do they need additional local services?
An extra morning down and evening up train could be useful for Gippsland, but that is about it.
| Quote: | | *Marshall and/or Geelong <-> Ballarat |
Unless that was for people from Marshall going to Ballarat, I couldn't imagine many passengers wanting to catch trains from Marshall to Geelong - certainly not enough to warrant dedicated services. 
| Quote: | | The only consideration I would have is comparing the costs of operation a railcar or loco + 1 or 2 carriages against a road coach. At what point does the cost of operating a loco plus carriages become more expensive to operate than the equivilent number of road coahes? |
Why would a locomotive hauled train be used for such a short run? Running a loco hauled train for such a short consist is pointless.. something like a Sprinter or Hunter railcar is much more appropriate.
"The trains at Pennant Hills run roughly every half hour. Nobody in their right mind uses a service that shoddy. That so many do just proves how many dumb and/or desperate people there are in Sydney." - MrPC
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xxxxlbear
Token Booking Clerk
Joined: Oct 30, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
Location: Geelong
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Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:04 pm
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You have totally missed the plot with what has been suggested in the initial post of this thread.
| Somebody in the WWW wrote: | | xxxlbear wrote: | *Moe and/or Morwell <-> Traralgon and/or Sale
*Kyneton and/or Castlemaine <-> Bendigo [with Bendigo suburban stations possibly re-opened |
Aren't those already serviced adequately by services to/from Melbourne for passengers making local trips? There is an hourly service to Melbourne on those lines now, why do they need additional local services?
An extra morning down and evening up train could be useful for Gippsland, but that is about it. |
The last time I looked at the timetable, neither Moe/Morwell or Sale receives an hourly service. Please correct me if I am wrong.
| Somebody in the WWW wrote: | | Quote: | | *Marshall and/or Geelong <-> Ballarat |
Unless that was for people from Marshall going to Ballarat, I couldn't imagine many passengers wanting to catch trains from Marshall to Geelong - certainly not enough to warrant dedicated services. |
Marshall was only a suggestion. The Departure/arrival point can quite easily be Geelong as it is now.
And quite often, the road coach leaves Geelong for Ballarat, and vice versa, at least 50% full. With a bit of marketing and PR by VLP, I suspect more passengers could be found for this service not just from both rural cities, but from rural towns inbetween Ballarat and Geelong.
| Somebody in the WWW wrote: | | Quote: | | The only consideration I would have is comparing the costs of operation a railcar or loco + 1 or 2 carriages against a road coach. At what point does the cost of operating a loco plus carriages become more expensive to operate than the equivilent number of road coahes? |
Why would a locomotive hauled train be used for such a short run? Running a loco hauled train for such a short consist is pointless.. something like a Sprinter or Hunter railcar is much more appropriate. |
You obviously haven't read the initial post by GeoffryHansen, and his idea for uses for the loco whilst not hauling passenger stock. Please do some homework and read his post before condemning me for simply agreeing with the idea put forward.
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Somebody in the WWW
Comeng Gunzel
Joined: Oct 08, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
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Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:47 pm
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| xxxxlbear wrote: | | The last time I looked at the timetable, neither Moe/Morwell or Sale receives an hourly service. Please correct me if I am wrong. |
All major stations between Pakenham and Traralgon have an hourly service on weekdays. Only the small stations, like Tynong, Yarragon, etc have 2hour gaps.
| Quote: | | You obviously haven't read the initial post by GeoffryHansen, and his idea for uses for the loco whilst not hauling passenger stock. |
I did read it, no need to attack me. Seems like a pointless proposal with few advantages, other than a shared pool of locomotives.
"The trains at Pennant Hills run roughly every half hour. Nobody in their right mind uses a service that shoddy. That so many do just proves how many dumb and/or desperate people there are in Sydney." - MrPC
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pm1225
Deputy Commissioner
Joined: Aug 29, 2005
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Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:47 pm
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Are you suggesting the US push/pull arrangement ie locomotive one end coach with flat end driving car on other. Would probably work fairly well only real problem the large number of unprotected level crossings. Loco hitting something wouldn't be that bad but flat coach end I think would be disasterous for both crew and passengers.
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GeoffreyHansen
Minister for Railways
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
Location: Waiting for the next commuter service to Bathurst
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Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:47 pm
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I didn't think about a Push Pull arrangement but it could be a good idea. I was just thinking of a peak hour US style commuter service but on a smaller scale.
I suppose Victoria has the advantage of many of its major centre being fairly close to Melbourne.
BTW, what suburban stations did Bendigo have?
Are there any cities in Queensland where my proposal could work?
Bring the 3900s back to Brisbane
Bring Karlsruhe Tramtrains to Australian cities
Extend the proposed Metro to Taylor Square
Extend the Gold Coast line to the Tweed
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Somebody in the WWW
Comeng Gunzel
Joined: Oct 08, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
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Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:51 pm
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| GeoffreyHansen wrote: | | BTW, what suburban stations did Bendigo have? |
Kangaroo Flat - still open, for 1 train per day each way (06:03 up Eaglehawk, 1817 Swan HIll)
Golden Square - closed some time ago, still there and building leased out
Bendigo - main terminal!
Eaglehawk - still open for Swan Hill passes (2x daily) and a few Bendigo trains extended there.
Plus there was Epsom IIRC on the Echuca line  . http://www.vicrailstations.com/Echuca/Echuca.html has pictures of each of them
I wonder how much patronage a station about a kilometre south of Kangaroo Flat - near Lansell Plaza would get.
"The trains at Pennant Hills run roughly every half hour. Nobody in their right mind uses a service that shoddy. That so many do just proves how many dumb and/or desperate people there are in Sydney." - MrPC
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MarkWaller2
Junior Train Controller
Joined: Jul 24, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 20, 2008
Location: Cambridge, England
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Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:40 pm
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Apologies for pulling up an old thread, but I spotted it only yesterday, and thought there were a number of points I could respond to.
First, some thoughts on US commuter operations.
- Service Pattern: the smaller operators and less busy routes tend to have peak-hours only service, sometimes only in the peak direction. This can lead to very inefficient use of rolling stock, e.g. four trains running, one after another, from a major city to a country terminus in the evening peak, stabling there overnight, and returning in the morning. I suspect the apparent unwillingness to get better stock utilisation by operating off-peak services may be due to the mandate under which the rail operation is funded, and any consequent problems from losses on a "non-commuter" service.
- Rolling Stock: other than on electrified lines, this is always loco + carriages, in a push-pull formation. Until very recently, there had been no builder of DMUs/railcars in the US since the demise of the Budd company, whereas locos are readily available from GE or EMD, or second-hand. I believe that there are now trials going on of a double-deck DMU from an American branch of one of the major international train builders.
- Loco Usage: as far as I know, passenger locos are restricted to operating passenger trains. This is not because of any incompatibility, but, I presume, because of a whole mess of legal and operational problems that arise if they're used on a freight operator's trains. There are all the insurance and liability issues that you might expect, and also the uncertainty of getting a loco back to work its train, particularly given that many US freight railroads do not operate to a timetable.
Second, a look at the economics of different types of operation. When comparing the costs for loco + carriages with self-propelled trains (DMUs/railcars), I understand that there's a break point where the train is five or six vehicles long. For a short train, e.g. one or two passenger vehicles, the overall costs are cheaper if it's self-propelled (hence, presumably, the forthcoming conversion of the Stony Point service to Sprinter operation). For long trains, it's cheaper to concentrate all the complicated kit in the loco, and have it haul unpowered coaches around. From this point of view, V/Line's Sprinters would be ideally suited to extending rail services on marginal routes.
I'm not sure about the economics of road vs. rail operation, other than that there is obviously a point at which rail operation is more economical. Where applicable, track access costs will obviously have a significant influence.
Overall, I think the idea of rail services around regional cities is one worth exploring; if it services of this sort do happen, I would expect them to use railcars rather than loco-hauled trains.
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jb17kx
Chief Train Controller
Joined: May 11, 2005
Last Visited: Apr 27, 2008
Location: Melbourne
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Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:36 am
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Currently the push-pull idea is used is many places in the US, mostly on lines shared with or taken over from freight operations. The equipment of choice is EMD F59PH and F59PHI locomotives and Bombardier bi-level stock, boarding from the bottom level.
Amtrak is the only road that uses commuter locomotives on other trains, but even then it is not a regular occurrence.
Colorado Railcar are about the only mob seriously into building DMUs over there, and even then I think they've only succeeded in trialling prototypes.
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chesterfield
Station Staff
Joined: Mar 02, 2005
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Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:13 pm
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I wonder why so much emphasis on US operations.
The Germans have been doing pushpull as had the Poms for years- Dare say most of Europe has and with a reported 20% increase in public transport useage , it will be interesting to see how long before another change to the Stony Pointer is needed
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drwaddles
In need of a breath mint
Joined: Aug 16, 2006
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Location: Lifting the A-League trophy!
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Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:21 pm
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| chesterfield wrote: | I wonder why so much emphasis on US operations.
The Germans have been doing pushpull as had the Poms for years- Dare say most of Europe has and with a reported 20% increase in public transport useage , it will be interesting to see how long before another change to the Stony Pointer is needed |
I'm curious how a change to push-pull operations solely caused a 20% increase in patronage?
People who talk out their asre usually have bad breath.
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chesterfield
Station Staff
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Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:21 pm
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Ah , grammar and punctuation,- The pushpulls were not responsible !!
The comment was intended to convey that there had been an increase of --- (locallyie here) (and , consequently a need for additional capacity) ( maybe, a return to loco-hauled trains so why not pushpulls in that case ,if the patronage is there)
Think I have al the commas in the right place!
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GeoffreyHansen
Minister for Railways
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Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
Location: Waiting for the next commuter service to Bathurst
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Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:13 am
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| chesterfield wrote: | I wonder why so much emphasis on US operations.
The Germans have been doing pushpull as had the Poms for years- Dare say most of Europe has and with a reported 20% increase in public transport useage , it will be interesting to see how long before another change to the Stony Pointer is needed |
I realise that in many ways the Europeans do a much better job in providing passenger services and I assume provide a much more intensive service. That however would probably be overkill for the sort of regional services that I am suggesting.
I was thinking that it could probably be more appropriate to provide a peak hour only service to smaller cities like is done in some North American cities. I recall reading that in the larger cities eg New York, Chicago, San Francisco have regular commuter services throughout the day but smaller cities such as Vancouver and only operate services during the peaks.
In the Australian context intensive commuter services are ideal for Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth where European practices would be ideal to follow.
I was thinking that for smaller Australian cities perhaps a rail service could still be provided by following the North American commuter model with a few adjustments such as integating ticketing with local bus operators who could provide an off-peak service.
I realise that a problem may exist with rollingstock laying idle during the day.
It's intriguing the idea of the US having hardly any railcars consdidering that they are some common in Australia, European and British operations.
Bring the 3900s back to Brisbane
Bring Karlsruhe Tramtrains to Australian cities
Extend the proposed Metro to Taylor Square
Extend the Gold Coast line to the Tweed
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MarkWaller2
Junior Train Controller
Joined: Jul 24, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 20, 2008
Location: Cambridge, England
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Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:56 am
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| GeoffreyHansen wrote: | | It's intriguing the idea of the US having hardly any railcars consdidering that they are some common in Australia, European and British operations. |
As I understand it, what happened in the US was that commuter rail operations essentially stood still between 1970 or earlier, and about 1990. There was no expansion of the various systems (rather the reverse, if anything), and little or no money for new rolling stock. Most operators just had to make do and mend. Consequently, the US domestic market for railcar-type trains died entirely, and the capacity and expertise for building such trains died with the market. Even the hauled-carriage market became pretty minimal. Once money started to become available for expansion of commuter rail operations, the only type of train available within the US was loco + carriages, and of course it's politically very difficult in the US to buy anything from abroad.
One specific US point I'd like to follow up:
| jb17kx wrote: | | Amtrak is the only road that uses commuter locomotives on other trains, but even then it is not a regular occurrence. |
I'd be interested to know where/when this occurs; I had assumed that Amtrak locos were pretty much restricted to Amtrak trains. With the hand-over of the New York - Philadelphia "Clocker" services to NJT, I wouldn't really have described any Amtrak service as "commuter rail".
Meanwhile, across the Atlantic...
| chesterfield wrote: | | The Germans have been doing pushpull as had the Poms for years- Dare say most of Europe has |
As far as continental Europe goes, it's quite a mixture: France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany and Austria have a fair amount of push-pull operation of suburban and other local trains; other countries' loco operations tend to be more conventional. There's been a strong trend towards multiple unit (railcar, in your terms) operation in almost all European countries over at least the last 10 years. Britain is probably the most extreme example of this: conventional loco haulage is now restricted to almost literally a handful of trains, mostly overnight between London and Scotland, while push-pull loco operation is used on only two routes (both inter-city), the East Coast Main Line from London to Leeds and Edinburgh, and the London - Norwich line. Assuming that Pendolinos, Voyagers and their clones, and HSTs are so counted, ALL other trains are operated by multiple units.
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