MIldura Passenger Line status?

 
  Sir Thomas Bent Minister for Railways

Location: Banned
And one last thing, The Vinelander what do diesel trains run on?
"Deep Throat"


VLine trains in any situation due to being government owned and run are classed as an essential service, which means oil for trains gets priority over oil for cars.
"The Vinelander"
Should it be?  

There's no reason why the same essential service cannot be the Swan Hill train?  

In fact I'd question whether a train is an essential service. Is it just becuase they're liked here that they are?  

In fact - classifying it as an essential service condems it to the same fate as the other long-distance pass services, only used by people who can get a substantial discount on the full fare and making it so bad that the people who will pay full fare will pay a premium to avoid it...

There's no shortage of oil, it's just getting expensive.

Airlines, being a private business rely on the market price for oil, and fare revenue to cover all their costs. If an airline charges too much due to whatever reason, then it's bye-bye airline.
"The Vinelander"
So, any rail operator that is private gets funding becuase it has to? Why?  


Rail fares for the past five years have only increased by the CPI, every January, along with every other state government charge.

Mike.    
"The Vinelander"
And freight doesn't, and the state government as far as I could tell only operated country rail services...  The rest are privately owned...

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  per1 Banned

Location: Banned
The rolling stock has just become available and very cheap. Queensland is about to close one of its inland passenger services.
  dalts 1985 Banned

Location: Banned
The rolling stock has just become available and very cheap. Queensland is about to close one of its inland passenger services.
"per1"

Which one Question


to Longreach, not likely  Exclamation

Or

 
to Mt. Isa, also not likely  Exclamation

Or


to Charleville, the one I'd say most likely to go Exclamation
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The rolling stock has just become available and very cheap. Queensland is about to close one of its inland passenger services.
"per1"

Which one Question


to Longreach, not likely  Exclamation

Or

 
to Mt. Isa, also not likely  Exclamation

Or


to Charleville, the one I'd say most likely to go Exclamation
"dalts 1985"


Ok, as everyone would know ad nauseum, I'm up here in the 'Smart State' and despite lots of discussion, whilst on my recent 'Lander tour with those in the know, including the crews on the trains, the closest I was able to get to a statement saying the ANY of those three trains is doomed is that the Westlander is on a two year contract.

Mike.

PS, some of the Westlander cars are so rusty, the sitters being the worst, as to be quite an eye-opener, should the train be cancelled they'll probably go straight to the breaking up yard  Exclamation

Mike, need I say where  Question  
  luznug Banned

Location: Banned
I think Indian Railways are Broad Gauge.
They could have rolling stock for the Mildura Passenger service.
  vlocity160 V/Gunzel

I think Indian Railways are Broad Gauge.
They could have rolling stock for the Mildura Passenger service.
"luznug"
I don't think that the Indian Rollingstock would pass one of our safety tests.  Razz
  Brian 2009 Chief Commissioner

Location: N.S.W.
Where's kuldalai's quote when you need it - something like 36 total weekly boardings/alightings in that area
"ZH836301"

36 a week - lol. Bet the fact that it was an overnight service put off a lot of people.

This site has some population figures for the line - minus Mildura itself they should be accurate (2001 Census):
[quote="http://www.vicrailstations.com/ideas/pass_return.html"] Ballarat to Mildura
Town - Population
Creswick* 2448
Clunes* 1091
Maryborough 7481
Dunolly* 663
St Arnaud 2400
Donald 1327
Birchip 698
Ouyen 1157
Red Cliffs 2636
Irymple* 1436
Mildura 26626
TOTAL 47963
Per Station Average 4360
"Somebody in the WWW"

Given the current station infraustructure on that line, major works would be needed for trains to resume stopping at some of these places. If passenger services resumed which ones would be logical to stop at? I'd bet that at most of these places, people would rarely need to travel to Melbourne and that most patronage would be generated from Mildura itself. In that case you must consider if Mildura itself can be serviced better than by a train via Ballarat Exclamation[/quote]
Somebody in the www,
On your list of Stations/towns there are 5 Stations/towns/villages missing. On the Railway map the Towns/villages of Nowingi, Hattah, Speed,Woomelang and Bealiba are marked on the line to Midura. Would they have population also or are these only sidings. Can anybody tell us please.

Regards,
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

Somebody in the www,
On your list of Stations/towns there are 5 Stations/towns/villages missing. On the Railway map the Towns/villages of Nowingi, Hattah, Speed,Woomelang and Bealiba are marked on the line to Midura. Would they have population also or are these only sidings. Can anybody tell us please.

Regards,
"Wilfy2007"


  Idea  A fairly accurate guess, including nearby homesteads and properties.

Remember, particularly if you are city-centric and don't leave the bright lights that often, we are talking Mallee towns here where the main industry is grains or sheep, and the towns have a general store, a pub or two, a post office land agent/agriculture machinery distributor and probably a Lions park for a picnic, which is usually green and a nice place to stop.

Nowingi, (Famous for almost becoming the toxic waste facility) about 20,
Hattah. about 40.
Speed, getting a bit bigger, about 80,
Woomelang, the biggest by far, about 120,
Bealiba, about 60

The Vinelander used to have a scheduled stop at Bealiba, Woomelang, and Hattah, and I believe the other stations were roadside stops, or were eliminated altogether in the later years.

Mike.  
  Brian 2009 Chief Commissioner

Location: N.S.W.

Somebody in the www,
On your list of Stations/towns there are 5 Stations/towns/villages missing. On the Railway map the Towns/villages of Nowingi, Hattah, Speed,Woomelang and Bealiba are marked on the line to Midura. Would they have population also or are these only sidings. Can anybody tell us please.

Regards,
"Wilfy2007"


  Idea  A fairly accurate guess, including nearby homesteads and properties.

Remember, particularly if you are city-centric and don't leave the bright lights that often, we are talking Mallee towns here where the main industry is grains or sheep, and the towns have a general store, a pub or two, a post office land agent/agriculture machinery distributor and probably a Lions park for a picnic, which is usually green and a nice place to stop.

Nowingi, (Famous for almost becoming the toxic waste facility) about 20,
Hattah. about 40.
Speed, getting a bit bigger, about 80,
Woomelang, the biggest by far, about 120,
Bealiba, about 60

The Vinelander used to have a scheduled stop at Bealiba, Woomelang, and Hattah, and I believe the other stations were roadside stops, or were eliminated altogether in the later years.

Mike.  
"The Vinelander"

Vinelander,
So if and when the service is restarted, would you have a service that stops at all Stations, and another service which only stop at the bigger Stations so that the limited Stations service has a quicker run to Melbourne

Regards,
  Rossco T Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
The one and only time I ever caught the Vinelander was around 1992 back when I was in Scouts and we did a hike around the Hattah-Kulkyne National Park.

I was part of a group of six people involved in the hike.  I remember we got off the train at Hattah at what must have been a very early hour of the morning.  I think the conductor came around to us to let us know that we had arrived at our stop.  Not surprisingly we were the only ones who got off!

Six or so days later when we finished our hike a bit earlier than expected I remember we spent the afternoon playing cards outside the Hattah general store waiting for the return train to arrive.  There really was not much else to do in Hattah!

Ross
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

Somebody in the www,
On your list of Stations/towns there are 5 Stations/towns/villages missing. On the Railway map the Towns/villages of Nowingi, Hattah, Speed,Woomelang and Bealiba are marked on the line to Midura. Would they have population also or are these only sidings. Can anybody tell us please.

Regards,
"Wilfy2007"


  Idea  A fairly accurate guess, including nearby homesteads and properties.

Remember, particularly if you are city-centric and don't leave the bright lights that often, we are talking Mallee towns here where the main industry is grains or sheep, and the towns have a general store, a pub or two, a post office land agent/agriculture machinery distributor and probably a Lions park for a picnic, which is usually green and a nice place to stop.

Nowingi, (Famous for almost becoming the toxic waste facility) about 20,
Hattah. about 40.
Speed, getting a bit bigger, about 80,
Woomelang, the biggest by far, about 120,
Bealiba, about 60

The Vinelander used to have a scheduled stop at Bealiba, Woomelang, and Hattah, and I believe the other stations were roadside stops, or were eliminated altogether in the later years.

Mike.  
"The Vinelander"

Vinelander,
So if and when the service is restarted, would you have a service that stops at all Stations, and another service which only stop at the bigger Stations so that the limited Stations service has a quicker run to Melbourne

Regards,
"Wilfy2007"


 That's a big ask  Exclamation

It's all the energy Bruce, myself and a few other interested posters to get one train up and running, again, once the track is to a 100kph standard, without hoping to get an all stopper and an express on the same or alternate days.

For a trip down memory lane, look at a Donald, Mildura line T/T from the early 50's. The down service included a DERM to Woomelang.

http://www.victorianrailways.net/timetables/1954/1954ttipage31.html

Though the train stopped at several more stations than in the 80's, it always arrived in Mildura around 7:30 AM.

The passengers didn't want to arrive any earlier Exclamation

Mainly because it was too difficult to pass the time before booking into the Grand, across the road, or a motel along Deakin Avenue.

The return journey in the 80's was accelerated by about an hour leaving Mildura by about 9:30 and arriving into Spencer Street about 7AM.

I remember every time there was a timetable change the Vinelander used to leave Mildura later and later which annoyed my mother as she had to drive my father to the station and it meant a later and later night for her as the service accelerated.

For the moment though, the rest is history and only time will tell.

Mike.

PS thanks to Mark Bau for the timetables.
 
  PClark Chief Commissioner

The situation regarding passenger rail to Mildura and Swan Hill is one of those unfortunate accidents of history.

Back in the latter part of the 19th century and the first quarter of the 20th there was a well-intentioned but rather naive enthusiasm for "developmental" lines through the Mallee.  These were built parallel with one another, often only about 30km apart so that produce from farms could easily be delivered to the stations by horse and cart.

I associate this development with the romantic, but again naive, "Soldier Settler's Scheme" which envisaged the heroes of Gallipoli and the Somme raising healthy, happy families in clean country air on small subdivisions far away from the "slums" of Collingwood and Fitzroy.

(All a bit reminiscent of "Oklahoma":-

"We know we belong to the land
And the land we belong to is grand"

Unfortunately the "Okies" and Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" came later)

Today, as the population figures quoted above indicate, only two settlements (Mildura and Swan Hill) on all of these lines have risen above Sleepy Hollow status and, unfortunately, they are on separate lines.

Notwithstanding concerns about increased fuel prices pushing up airfares and the cost of driving, the fact remains that there are approximately 450km of seriously deteriorated track between Ballarat and Mildura and the cost of upgrading this to allow the operation of a train at speeds that would not be regarded as a joke would be more than even the most irresponsible government could justify.

Best option is to develop and improve the existing co-ordinated rail road service, possibly with two advanced Vlocities (2 class, catering service) providing three daily services to Swan Hill with all connecting to and from Mildura.
  PClark Chief Commissioner

The situation regarding passenger rail to Mildura and Swan Hill is one of those unfortunate accidents of history.

Back in the latter part of the 19th century and the first quarter of the 20th there was a well-intentioned but rather naive enthusiasm for "developmental" lines through the Mallee.  These were built parallel with one another, often only about 30km apart so that produce from farms could easily be delivered to the stations by horse and cart.

I associate this development with the romantic, but again naive, "Soldier Settler's Scheme" which envisaged the heroes of Gallipoli and the Somme raising healthy, happy families in clean country air on small subdivisions far away from the "slums" of Collingwood and Fitzroy.

(All a bit reminiscent of "Oklahoma":-

"We know we belong to the land
And the land we belong to is grand"

Unfortunately the "Okies" and Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" came later)

Today, as the population figures quoted above indicate, only two settlements (Mildura and Swan Hill) on all of these lines have risen above Sleepy Hollow status and, unfortunately they are on separate lines.

Notwithstanding concerns about increased fuel prices pushing up airfares and the cost of driving, the fact remains that there are approximately 450km of seriously deteriorated track between Ballarat and Mildura and the cost of upgrading this to allow the operation of a train at speeds that would not be regarded as a joke would be more than even the most irresponsible government could justify.

Best option is to develop and improve the existing co-ordinated rail road service, possibly with two advanced Vlocities (2 class, catering service) providing three daily services to Swan Hill with all connecting to and from Mildura.
  PClark Chief Commissioner

Sorry about the double posting.

May have had something to do with the dreaded "Unavailable" sign coming up just after I pressed "Submit"
  Somebody in the WWW Banned

Location: Banned
I wonder how you could get the Swan Hill journey time down to, IF

- The track from Swan Hill to Bendigo was upgraded to a minimum speed of 100km/h for the entire length.

- A V/Locity were to run at the current flagship's timings between Melbourne and Bendigo, not stopping anywhere (a connecting train could leave Bendigo 5mins later to take passengers to other stations)

Idea

I wonder if the combined road-rail time from Mildura to Melbourne via that would be faster than the train via Ballarat Exclamation

If the 160km/h running is not required between Bendigo or Melbourne, I see no reason why existing locomotive hauled stock could not be used to provide extra services from Swan Hill, perhaps with a better stopping pattern (delete Gisborne, Woodend, Kangaroo Flat, Malmsbury, Sunbury from Swan Hill trains).

I assume with track upgrades beyond Bendigo you could get the speed up for loco hauled services - currently it varies from 65km/h (Bendigo-Eaglehawk) to 100km/h (Eaglehawk-Kerang), so were it upgraded to 115km/h, that is still achievable with the current stock Exclamation

I note the evening Swan Hill pass is already a 5-car set - I am not sure how well loaded it is beyond Bendigo (I have seen it leaving BGO reasonably full in the carriages that I could see one Friday night), but I wonder how well many of these people are going to Mildura, as it is 5 N carriages connecting with 1 bus.
  PClark Chief Commissioner

Hi Somebody

The best SB timing for the co-ordinated service SB is 7h 4m.  NB it is 7h 5m.

This is much faster than any timing previously achieved by a through train via Ballarat.

The current service suffers from the use of loco-hauled sets rather than Vlocities, from multiple stops at the new outer suburbs and from the crazy practice of running late afternoon Intercity trains after 1800 so as to be defined as "off-peak" irrespective of whether or not this is when most passengers want to travel.

In the case of passengers to Mildura this means a departure from SCS at 1817 on a "stopper" and an arrival at 0130 - hardly convenient.

But then, the fares are "off-peak" so don't complain.

That is the philosophy of this government where a "social worker" is Minister for Transport.

All passengers are equally inferior.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Previously posted many times, but not read or understood apparently :

1.  The average ons and offs over 6 trains a week at ALL stations between Maryborough and Redcliffs was less than 40 total per week . When a day train was tried in the 1980's the numbers were no different .

2.  The current upgrade to the Mildura line is not really an upgrade as it is just restoring the previous track standard (Class-3) before FV/FA/PN let it deteriorate to 50 kmh sort of .  The line speed after the current project will be 80 kmh as it was before . There are no current plans to upgrade the track standard above that to achieve a higher speed. The track is being maintained to a standard suitable for freight train operation .

3. The track Eaglehawk to Kerang is 94lb jointed rail (Class-3) and is suitable for 100kmh loco hauled. Kerang - Swan Hill is  much older 80lb jointed rail (Class-3) and allows 90 kmh for loco hauled.  Potentially the first section with a heavy tie renewal, more ballast & CWR and alterations to lx approaches could achieve Class-2 (115kmh loco hauled/130kmh DMU). The second section requires re-railing with re-claimed 94lb rail, tie renewal, ballasting, lx approaches etc to achieve Class-2 and same speeds.  (Cascaded 94lb rail ex RFR is said to have been run out in the Kerang - Swan Hill section ready for relay.)
With those sort of improvements  the rail transit time to Swan Hill would be reduced by 15 minutes for loco hauled to around 3 hrs 45 mins, and for Vlocity on flagship stops to Bendigo the Swan Hill time would be around 3 hrs 15 mins.

Finally, don't bother debating Mildura line stops and schedules for two passenger trains, as there will NOT be even a single passenger train .

The silent majority of Mildura residents are quite happy with the train/coach service via Swan Hill which runs twice daily, each way 7 days a week - as that service will always be faster than a train via Maryborough .  The existing passenger numbers indicate that this is an attractive service .  Government / DOT / VLP have far more important fish to fry than worrying about restoring a Mildura Pax train that would be doomed to failure.  Leongatha is now officially dead, the sooner Government says the same for Mildura the better ; instead of this false hope - death by a thousand cuts thing .
  PClark Chief Commissioner

Kuldalai

Thank you for bringing some reality back into this thread.

An 80km/h speed limit between Mildura and Ballarat indicates a timing for a Melbourne- Mildura train of at least 2 hours slower than coach/rail via Swan Hill.

Enough said!
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Previously posted many times, but not read or understood apparently :

The average ons and offs over 6 trains a week at ALL stations between Maryborough and Redcliffs was less than 40 total per week . When a day train was tried in the 1980's the numbers were no different.
"kuldalai"


Kuldalai, you would have to concede that these figures were probably taken when The Vinelander under Mr Kennett, was at its death-knell and times have certainly changed significantly since those days.

A comparison with figures from the Bendigo to Swan Hill, excluding pax numbers travelling beyond Swan Hill circa 1992 and today's figures would be an interesting comparison.


Government / DOT / VLP have far more important fish to fry than worrying about restoring a Mildura Pax train that would be doomed to failure.  Leongatha is now officially dead, the sooner Government says the same for Mildura the better ; instead of this false hope - death by a thousand cuts thing .
"kuldalai"


Idea Do tell Kuldalai, of these plans Exclamation We can compare notes  Wink

By the way, using Leongatha as an example, why haven't the Government killed any prospect of the Mildura line passenger service, stone dead Question
Especially as an announcement now would have no electoral implications for the Government.

Despite my pro Mildura pax train re-instatement argument, I have said several times that only when the track is improved to a standard to allow pax trains to travel at, at least 100kph.

Obviously this takes time and more than a few $$.

WE all know pretty well that the Ballarat to Maryborough upgrade is going to happen, probably sooner rather than later. IMO the pax numbers due to that upgrade will give confidence to increase the service to thrice daily, circa Ararat, with connecting new or increased frequency buses to Avoca, Castlemaine and most likely to St Arnaud, a mere 75Km further, then on to the Mallee, assuming that isn't already the plan.

Furthermore, IMO the patronage will be impressive as Maryborough becomes a more important transit point, than it currently is,  like Ballarat which will lead to confidence to upgrade the track to St Arnaud Exclamation

None of this will happen tomorrow, however IMO it will happen.

Are you going to argue that it won't, or can't Question

Don't forget, people laughed when Ararat was planned for re-instatement, and now it's successful. NOBODY LAUGHS 8)

Which proves my point, especially as has been proven many times these recent past few years, build a credible service, relaunch it with a bit of fan-fare, wait till the locals start using it, they tell others, (the classic BBQ, dinner party recommendation) and its future is reassured as the next generation use it, as is happening now because that's the thing to do.

We also know Ararat cannot be extended due to the standard gauge.

IMO Maryborough will work on the same modelling, with one proviso, its success will determine any long term plan to St Arnaud, less than 80 Km further on and half way to Mildura, not to mention Ripon is a marginal seat, however that will be secondary because, by then, the overwhelmingly successful Ararat model will be the template.

Maryborough and environs will grow further as the tree changers increase the Pyrenees regions population to the degree that Ballarat's importance will grow to the point of requiring an even more frequent train service than was initially planned.

So NEVER is a long time Kuldalai, and IMO after Maryborough comes St Arnaud, and then, lets look at your never scenario.

Again none of this will happen tomorrow, but in the next decade, a better than even chance, unless of course we go back to the dark days of another Kennett, (Victoria ends at the end of the tram tracks) type of government.  Kill Me

Furthermore, cast your minds and thoughts back to those early 1992 Kennett days when his incoming administration attempted to stop the order for the then 19 Sprinter cars, thoughtfully and with a mind to the future ordered by the outgoing Kirner government.

Imagine the predicament V/line would be in today when it very successfully operated a special T/T shifting then record crowds during the pre VLocity Commonwealth Games.

The other point I'm attempting to make is nothing is static.

The posters for and against the Mildura proposal, had we had an online  Forum in those days could have argued for and against the introduction of the Sprinters in 1992, and had we not had them, we would have been so far behind the eight ball by now that its a nightmare to contemplate.

Mike.

It's a lovely Sunday morning, I might take my constitutional along the Gulf road to Croydon today    Exclamation  8)

PS, Not to leave Peter out, I agree with everything you said about the parallel Mallee railways, the theory being that around 30 to 40 Km round trip from homestead to railway station with a horse and dray could be achieved in one day.
  toxation Chief Commissioner

Location: Cobram, Victoria
Actually, the plans for the Mallee lines was documented by VR, and was written about in the 150 years of Victoria's Railways book.

The VR took a different approach in northern Victoria compared to the centre and the east, as it saw operating many parallel lines cheaper than the operation of many junctions off of a main trunk line.
  PClark Chief Commissioner

Kennett tried to cancel the Sprinters?

Funny.  I was on Policy Assembly and the Transport Standing Committee at the time and have no recollection of this.  I do recall comments that, at a time when just about every sector of the Victorian economy (except the Public Service) was in freefall, that they should not have been ordered from an interstate supplier and that they might not be the best thing that could have been ordered but that is about all.

Also, I don't think it's correct to compare Maryborough with Ararat.  Ararat is the railhead for a big catchment area - people come in by road coach or private car from major centres like Stawell, Horsham and Hamilton.  A big % of people on Ararat trains would be going beyond that town.

Maryborough, by comparison, is out on it's own.  St Arnaud (pop 2,400) would only generate a few passengers a day, certainly not enough to justify extending the service to there from Maryborough.  Avoca is just a village and Ballarat-Castlemaine is better done by all-road via the Midland Highway and Daylesford (just look at a map)

Certainly nobody is going to get onto a coach in Mildura to travel via Maryborough (or St Arnaud) when they can go to Swan Hill.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Kennett tried to cancel the Sprinters?

Funny.  I was on Policy Assembly and the Transport Standing Committee at the time and have no recollection of this.  I do recall comments that, at a time when just about every sector of the Victorian economy (except the Public Service) was in freefall, that they should not have been ordered from an interstate supplier and that they might not be the best thing that could have been ordered but that is about all.  
"PClark"


My sources told me a long time ago the incoming Kennett administration tried to bail out of the Sprinter contract, however due to the very costly penalty clause decided it was better to grudgingly maintain the order.

Mike.    
  dalts 1985 Banned

Location: Banned
Kennett tried to cancel the Sprinters?

Funny.  I was on Policy Assembly and the Transport Standing Committee at the time and have no recollection of this.  I do recall comments that, at a time when just about every sector of the Victorian economy (except the Public Service) was in freefall, that they should not have been ordered from an interstate supplier and that they might not be the best thing that could have been ordered but that is about all.  
"PClark"


My sources told me a long time ago the incoming Kennett administration tried to bail out of the Sprinter contract, however due to the very costly penalty clause decided it was better to grudgingly maintain the order.

Mike.    
"The Vinelander"


Thank god they did continue with the "soupcan(s)" order, or we would be in quite the debarkle today, but then again, they could have always just "NOT" dropped the fares by 20% & all this excess patronage would simply ceased to have existed or maybe would have occuried in vastly small incredmints...
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

The 22 Sprinters for PTC were ordered when Jim Kennan was MOT under  Kirner Government . When Kennett got in and found the State finances were up the spout his Government looked to try and cut out many commitments they regarded as luxuries. (Now we all know young Jeffrey was no fan of railways generally or their associated transport unions). The idea was examined to get out of the Sprinter contract, and it got so serious it was argued minimum 9 or none at all . However commonsense prevailed, a signed contract was that and the 22 were ultimately delivered, which Minister Brown then claimed credit for in untold photo opportunities as every Council hollered to have them used on their line .
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The 22 Sprinters for PTC were ordered when Jim Kennan was MOT under  Kirner Government . When Kennett got in and found the State finances were up the spout his Government looked to try and cut out many commitments they regarded as luxuries. (Now we all know young Jeffrey was no fan of railways generally or their associated transport unions). The idea was examined to get out of the Sprinter contract, and it got so serious it was argued minimum 9 or none at all . However commonsense prevailed, a signed contract was that and the 22 were ultimately delivered, which Minister Brown then claimed credit for in untold photo opportunities as every Council hollered to have them used on their line .
"kuldalai"


Thanks for that clarification Kuldalai.    

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