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FieldShunt74
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
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Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:51 am
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| MD wrote: | Ask yourself this question.
Rail between Adelaide to Perth has 82% market share, and Melb to Sydney has 10%.
Whats differant about these 2 routes. |
Adelaide - Perth is several times further than Sydney - Melbourne and longer haul favours rail over road. The road and rail routes across to WA are more evenly matched for distance and level of investment than the Hume Hwy is with it's parallel rail line. The Hume has had X billion dollars spent on it whereas the rail is only now starting to get a few dribs and drabs out of ARTC. The playingfield in the east is nowhere near level and that ain't just the topography.
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BDA
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 17, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
Location: Sydney
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Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:51 pm
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What people forget when looking at freight is the actual tonnage moved between Melb/Syd and Perth . Its a small fraction of the tonnage moved between Melb - Syd - Brisbane .
What you need to do is look at the centres of population because that's where the greatest concentrations of consumers are .
Seriously , forget about Parkes being the demographic center of Australia because it means jack smeg . It's a nice tool for the number crunchers to hand around but it counts for very little . Don't believe me ? Then see how many millions of people live in Parkes ...
The greatest opportunity to shift land freight from road to rail is on Australias EAST coast and given the distances involved it's entirely workable .
As for electric traction , first need adequate alignments , then need billions to string the wire up and connect it to the national grid , then how do you protect it from vandals/terrorists .
Everyone loves the double stack clearances and this is a big ask under wires .
Locomotives - a diesel electric is a self contained mobile power station where an electric locomotive is not . If you diesel coughs and dies then you get another one . If your overhead power supply dies then all the elec locos around are useless .
Trainlined fuel tankers are the answer for diesel electrics , they are quite capable of keeping fuel mass up to a modern locomotive and really they can make Melb - Syd and Syd - Bris as they are .
I refuse to believe that 53 or 60 Kg rail on 30TAL sleepers cannot support 140T locomotives .
To get fuel to a locomotive depot is about as expensive as moving the same capacity road tanker the same distance from a refinery to a service station . In Sydney its trivial .
I think you can put electrifying the Syd Melb railway in the same basket as electrifying the Hume Syd Melba and forcing truck companies to convert . Its not gonna happen is it ?
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simonl
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Jan 05, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 16, 2008
Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:31 pm
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| BDA wrote: | | I refuse to believe that 53 or 60 Kg rail on 30TAL sleepers cannot support 140T locomotives . |
But are axle loads that much of a problem on Mel - Syd - Brisbane? I thought it was more of a problem Adelaide/Parkes - Perth. Sure, you'd like consistency to allow the same locomotives on the nullabor as everywhere else, but you could just put in less fuel.
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FieldShunt74
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
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Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:54 pm
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| BDA wrote: | | As for electric traction , first need adequate alignments , |
Yes, you need better alignments and that should be the first step, starting now, if not sooner. Perhaps, if you know you're going to electrify later, you might favour straighter over flatter slightly more than if you don't envisage electrifying. We've gone from the cheap, straighter and steeper of the original rail lines under Whitton and Co to curvier and flatter with the diversions of the early 20th century. That's where we still are today, curvy, not too steep lines designed for steam engines. With today's batch of diesels we'd be better off back on the straighter original alignments with the 1 in 40s. Now we look at straightening and flattening again in a new century. We could optimise the grade profile for today's locos and trains, or we could maybe build for much higher horsepower and speeds with straighter lines but slightly steeper hills. Sure, straight and flat would be better, but the budget might not stretch. If you know there's going to be big electric horsepower to throw around, you might skimp a bit on the engineering now and decide that some hills that you would eliminate for diesels will be acceptable for electrics.
| BDA wrote: | | ...then need billions to string the wire up and connect it to the national grid , then how do you protect it from vandals/terrorists. |
How do we protect the rail and power lines we have now? By maintaining law and order, a stable society, a peaceful region in the South Pacific. You think electric trains are suddenly going to set off alarm bells in Al-Qaeda headquarters? Terrorists could just as effectively target the rail lines we have now. They could take out the power lines to the cities so that nothing will get built or consumed and the diesel trains won't need to run because there will be nothing to haul. In a shooting war the oil for the diesels has to come great distances by sea whereas the coal, uranium, wind and sun are all available locally. Other countries, notably the Europeans and the Russians, have vast electrified networks, think Trans-Siberian vast, and they don't seem to have been put off by security concerns.
| BDA wrote: | | Locomotives - a diesel electric is a self contained mobile power station where an electric locomotive is not . If you diesel coughs and dies then you get another one . If your overhead power supply dies then all the elec locos around are useless . |
Widespread power failures on electrified rail networks are very rare. Power supplies are diverse routed for reliability. Power, communication, locomotive and signalling failures are as much or more of a problem on the non electrified areas of the current network as traction power failures would ever be. The Queenslanders seem to do just fine, have they got a secret they're not telling us? There will still be diesels around to help out in a pinch, I hope.
| BDA wrote: | | I think you can put electrifying the Syd Melb railway in the same basket as electrifying the Hume Syd Melba and forcing truck companies to convert . Its not gonna happen is it ? |
That's the best argument for electrification yet. You're right, they'll never be able to electrify the trucks. Oil gets too dear, electric trains may be the only game in town.
If you can't see the allure of a 132 tonne, 10,000hp, AC traction electric loco then I question your sanity. Imagine, it might only lift 25% more than an NR from a stand, but it'll run the boards over the hills where your 4000hp NR is labouring at 40 clicks. Ideal for fast intermodal work.
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Myrtone
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Feb 13, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
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Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:42 pm
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| mjja wrote: | | Also, I think we should probably make a new Australian standard for pantograph height - allowing for double stacked containers under the wires. That would be 8m from the rail to the wire. |
Maybe allowing not only that but double decker passenger trains (outside of tunnels).
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Draffa
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Apr 11, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
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Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:46 pm
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| BDA wrote: | | then how do you protect it from vandals/terrorists . |
That's a bit of a furphy, imo. Terrorists haven't been attacking our sparks so far, and I doubt they'll do so in the future. Anyone can sit down with a few mates and think up dozens of ways to cripple this (or any other 'modern') society with little effort and no chance of getting caught, but we're not seeing any attacks.
| Quote: | | To get fuel to a locomotive depot is about as expensive as moving the same capacity road tanker the same distance from a refinery to a service station . |
That would be a logical stance if we were confident that we'd still have Oil in slightly excess quantities after about 2010.
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42101
Banned
Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Last Visited: Sep 27, 2008
Location: Banned
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Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:50 pm
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Gee i just love these stupid threads......8m high overhead,double stack, double deck pass cars.....why dont we make it maglev or monorail as well.
Gib tunnel and Bethungra tunnel wont be problems for all this junk will they.
Banned
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Somebody in the WWW
Comeng Gunzel
Joined: Oct 08, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
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Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:56 pm
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| Myrtone wrote: | | Maybe allowing not only that but double decker passenger trains (outside of tunnels). |
Have you ever been to Sydney?
"The trains at Pennant Hills run roughly every half hour. Nobody in their right mind uses a service that shoddy. That so many do just proves how many dumb and/or desperate people there are in Sydney." - MrPC
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FieldShunt74
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:04 am
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| 42101 wrote: | Gee i just love these stupid threads......8m high overhead,double stack, double deck pass cars.....why dont we make it maglev or monorail as well.
Gib tunnel and Bethungra tunnel wont be problems for all this junk will they. |
I wouldn't call it stupid. Yeah, it's large scale, big ticket stuff. Tunnels can be dug out at the floor or daylighted. The septics are doing it all the time. Overhead wire height can be whatever you are prepared to make it. Gib tunnel needn't always be the way it is now, or even part of the main line. It's OK to think beyond what we have now to what we could have.
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3foot6
Minister for Railways
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 22, 2008
Location: Brisbane, QLD
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:11 am
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| FieldShunt74 wrote: | | 42101 wrote: | Gee i just love these stupid threads......8m high overhead,double stack, double deck pass cars.....why dont we make it maglev or monorail as well.
Gib tunnel and Bethungra tunnel wont be problems for all this junk will they. |
I wouldn't call it stupid. Yeah, it's large scale, big ticket stuff. Tunnels can be dug out at the floor or daylighted. The septics are doing it all the time. Overhead wire height can be whatever you are prepared to make it. Gib tunnel needn't always be the way it is now, or even part of the main line. It's OK to think beyond what we have now to what we could have. |
Electrification along the East Coast of Australia isn't a bad idea. Everywhere is electrified in Japan and Europe and they make sure they get their money's worth out of it.
The XPT is getting on a bit now, and there will come a point where a decision has to be made to 'Electrify or Die.'
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Myrtone
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Feb 13, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:38 am
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| 3foot6 wrote: | | Electrification along the East Coast of Australia isn't a bad idea. Everywhere is electrified in Japan and Europe and they make sure they get their money's worth out of it. |
Japan is geographically very tiny, so it is very easy for them, also, I don't know that they really have any native oil reserves. Europe is also denser which makes it easier. In many parts of North America, railways are still unwired, again because of long distances, note that Texas is famous for oil. But still, this is not America, I remeber reading somewhere, some years ago, that Australia would run out of oil eight years from the time of its writing, has it?
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Draffa
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Apr 11, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:14 am
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| Myrtone wrote: | | I remeber reading somewhere, some years ago, that Australia would run out of oil eight years from the time of its writing, has it? |
Aside from the issue of whether your source was a reliable one, no, we haven't, but we've gone from (a short-lived) 100% self-sufficiency to 60% self-sufficient in less than a decade. The countries we import the majority of our Oil from are in either Export Decline or total Decline (ELM suggests it takes about a decade after Peak for an Oil exporting country to cease exports). Not a good sign.
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mjja
Sir Nigel Gresley
Joined: Jan 13, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 17, 2008
Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:52 am
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Greg, why do you think it's a stupid idea to allow for double stacking? Surely it's more stupid to make restrictions because then if we ever do want to allow double stacking it's even harder than it would be today.
Happy Gunzelling and remember, "Go by rail!"
Michael Angelico
President, Smart Passengers Inc
(My opinions are my own unless specifically stated.)
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MD
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Dec 10, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 16, 2008
Location: Canbera
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:46 pm
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I simply dont understand why people keep thinking that Australia is going to run out of oil.
Victoria was making its own oil from brown coal back in 1982.
Australia has enuf black coal to make oil from for the next 4000 years.
Currently we import oil rather than make simply because no one has bullt a large enuf liquefaction plant.
There is no problem.
South Africa incidentally, has been making its own oil from coal for the past 22 years.
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Draffa
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Apr 11, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:26 pm
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| MD wrote: | | I simply dont understand why people keep thinking that Australia is going to run out of oil. |
Because it's a finite resource.
Strictly speaking, we're not going to 'run out'. What's going to happen is that field decline will mean there's less available each year, and what is available will cost more. At some point, it won't be economic anywhere.
There'll always be Oil in the ground, it's just that nobody will want it because it's too expensive.
| Quote: | | Victoria was making its own oil from brown coal back in 1982. |
At a horrible environmental cost.
CTL also requires a lot of water.
| Quote: | | Australia has enuf black coal to make oil from for the next 4000 years. |
Your figure is way off, but lets assume it's correct.
That 4000 years would be for us only. But what makes you think other countries won't want a piece of the action? We wouldn't be making it just for ourselves. And since that will be the case, we're back to the 250-year figure that's usually bandied about (which itself assumes we can get all of the Coal out of the ground, which has never happened.
Then you have to worry about Peak Coal, currently assumed to hit somewhere around 2015 (notice how all of these Peaks seems to be around the same time?). IIRC, the US has already passed Peak Coal Energy, since they have used most of the better quality reserves.
| Quote: | | South Africa incidentally, has been making its own oil from coal for the past 22 years. |
The SASOL plant in South Africa only produces about a third of SA's daily needs, and is the largest point-source of pollution in the whole of Africa.
Converting Coal to Liquids is not efficient, and requires a huge supply/distribution chain. We'd be better off just burning the Coal in a power Plant and using the electricity directly.
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