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oldrailfan
Banned
Joined: Oct 06, 2008
Last Visited: Oct 24, 2008
Location: Banned
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:23 am
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Premier Rees is set to today, announce private rail maintence policy - so all depots in Sydney/NSW will go to private bidders for rolling stock overhaul.
.... and they wish to do same to Ferry operations....
So i feel the ALP is set to get thrashed now if they do these changes.
Interesting to see will the public at large care who fixes the trains/ferries?
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bugmenot
Junior Train Controller
Joined: Nov 10, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 10, 2008
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:15 am
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| oldrailfan wrote: | | So i feel the ALP is set to get thrashed now if they do these changes. |
One of the reasons they got thrashed because the didn't make those changes.
| oldrailfan wrote: | | Interesting to see will the public at large care who fixes the trains/ferries? |
Nobody cares, all they want is a reliable service.
With the huge swings at the by-elections, I don't think you will see Unions NSW complaining about any changes to rail maintenance. They had their win on the electricity issue.
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Speed
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Mar 19, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:53 am
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The Herald duly reports the announcement.
| Quote: | Unions and RailCorp management have been put on notice to improve rail maintenance in NSW or lose the job to the private sector. The move was aimed at overturning the "dinosaur-like industrial landscapes" surrounding Sydney's rail network, Premier Nathan Rees said on Monday.
Under an agreement struck by Transport Minister David Campbell on Friday, unions and RailCorp management had agreed to match private sector maintenance standards, he said. If they failed to do so by March 31 next year, RailCorp would be stripped of the work and it would be given to private contractors, Mr Rees said.
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Currently 75 per cent of maintenance work is contracted out to the private sector, with the remaining 25 per cent done by RailCorp maintenance workers. However, in-house maintenance accounts for 50 per cent of maintenance-related incidents on the network, Mr Rees said. Under the agreement with the unions and management, the government will push for multi-skilling of workers to break down the demarcation barriers
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An independent auditor will be appointed in the next two weeks to oversee the rail reforms and a parallel process of tendering for in-house maintenance work will be undertaken to ensure it can be transferred to the private sector if RailCorp and unions fail to meet the March 31 deadline. |
http://news.smh.com.au/national/rees-puts-rail-workers-on-notice-20081020-54en.html
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FieldShunt74
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:30 pm
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| SMH wrote: | | "Inflexible work practices at RailCorp mean something as simple as getting a light bulb change has led to delays and even caused services to be cancelled. Clearly that's ridiculous." |
Well, since they mentioned light bulbs... Train crew are no longer allowed to change marker light bulbs. You need a certificate of competency issued by the rollingstock division for that, and guards and drivers don't have such a thing. Train crew are now also barred from many of the electrical cupboards, and can no longer change fuses, reset breakers, set switches, etc. This is progress, apparently, because drivers (and to a lesser extent guards) used to be trained and required to fix or reset little problems like these.
So they want to talk about demarcation as a barrier to productivity while busily de-skilling the front line staff and creating barriers of their own? Can they now only hire gumby drivers who are not clever enough to change a light bulb? Safety Nazi OH&S demarcation is good but any other division of duties is bad now? Two faced pantywaists.
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Hendo
Train Controller
Joined: Jun 11, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 22, 2008
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:59 pm
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| FieldShunt74 wrote: | | SMH wrote: | | "Inflexible work practices at RailCorp mean something as simple as getting a light bulb change has led to delays and even caused services to be cancelled. Clearly that's ridiculous." |
Well, since they mentioned light bulbs... Train crew are no longer allowed to change marker light bulbs. You need a certificate of competency issued by the rollingstock division for that, and guards and drivers don't have such a thing. Train crew are now also barred from many of the electrical cupboards, and can no longer change fuses, reset breakers, set switches, etc. This is progress, apparently, because drivers (and to a lesser extent guards) used to be trained and required to fix or reset little problems like these.
So they want to talk about demarcation as a barrier to productivity while busily de-skilling the front line staff and creating barriers of their own? Can they now only hire gumby drivers who are not clever enough to change a light bulb? Safety Nazi OH&S demarcation is good but any other division of duties is bad now? Two faced pantywaists. |
Fieldshunt,
Forgive my ignorance of the omnipotence of RP and how it is the salve for all isses, but why not raise the light globe issue with your union and supervisors and get the function back? Oh the unions would have been the one who organised that nice little demarcation to keep the work for the electricians under the dreadful OH&S.
Silly me would have thought that sort of thing would have been part of the drivers and guards duties when they first take a train and in emergencies.
cheers,
Hendo
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nadnerb_2000
Chief Commissioner
Joined: May 07, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 20, 2008
Location: between my hat and my shoe soles
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:11 pm
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| Hendo wrote: | | FieldShunt74 wrote: | | SMH wrote: | | "Inflexible work practices at RailCorp mean something as simple as getting a light bulb change has led to delays and even caused services to be cancelled. Clearly that's ridiculous." |
Well, since they mentioned light bulbs... Train crew are no longer allowed to change marker light bulbs. You need a certificate of competency issued by the rollingstock division for that, and guards and drivers don't have such a thing. Train crew are now also barred from many of the electrical cupboards, and can no longer change fuses, reset breakers, set switches, etc. This is progress, apparently, because drivers (and to a lesser extent guards) used to be trained and required to fix or reset little problems like these.
So they want to talk about demarcation as a barrier to productivity while busily de-skilling the front line staff and creating barriers of their own? Can they now only hire gumby drivers who are not clever enough to change a light bulb? Safety Nazi OH&S demarcation is good but any other division of duties is bad now? Two faced pantywaists. |
Fieldshunt,
Forgive my ignorance of the omnipotence of RP and how it is the salve for all isses, but why not raise the light globe issue with your union and supervisors and get the function back? Oh the unions would have been the one who organised that nice little demarcation to keep the work for the electricians under the dreadful OH&S.
Silly me would have thought that sort of thing would have been part of the drivers and guards duties when they first take a train and in emergencies.
cheers,
Hendo |
Kneejerk = Blame the union.
Interesting that the announcement of privatisation comes days after a labor thrashing at by-elections.
Anyway. On the subject of fuses, in emergency we can ask permission to remove them, in which case we have to lower all pantographs first. Similarly we can reset circuit breakers, with the exception of some like the "big mac" in K/C sets. But yes we're not allowed to change marker light globes.
You want to blame someone for that? Blame society. I'm not being flippant either - it's everyone's fault. Because of society demanding safety laws that when put into practice don't allow anyone to do anything. We lost marker lights due to someone burning fingers and risk of electric shock. We lost access to various cupboards because of single incidents of people getting a shock in extraordinary circumstances. At Olympic Park, there is a Safe Work Method Statement and instructions on how to operate a hand held counter because someone had 2 days off with a sore thumb.
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a6et
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:11 pm
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It actually makes me wonder where this came from, as aspects of this is also part of external rules.
According to actual electrical, requirements by law, you actually need to have an electricions licence to change light bulbs, & even fuses, in your homes. It also goes to a point that by the same type of law, you need to have a plumbing licence to change washers in your taps.
Now, these laws may have been done away with but, I have not heard of it so far. So, if that is part of overall law, not industrial but, safety laws it must also apply for the same principle in rail operations.
The changing of various high tension fuses & the like were always part of the drivers job, on ETR, we were shown how, on the faults day at Royal National Park. It was also our job on diesels to change the light globes in marker lights, but not on steam.
Now the thing is, that in those days, the trains were all stabled off line overnight or when stabled in sidings, such as at Homebush, where 4 cars were left in the morning off peak periods & picked up prior to the evening peaks. Except for the car sheds, where the trains were left on line, places such penrith, Blacktown, Liverpool, Campbelltown, Cronulla etc, they were all off line, & fuse testing had to be done, in each power car, just like marker lights tested & spare bulbs had test plugs.
Why the change? & who did it?
We were not allowed on steam nor diesel to change the headlight bulbs, nor to clean the headlights on steam, it was a TEO's responsibility.
I would have thought much of this sort of thing that Rees mentioned, along with what Dill emma said earlier this year in the announcement of the metro, & reasons for it, & that was an electrician could not work, on a part of a train without someone opening or unlocking the cabinet.
What I would like to actually know is the specifics of the cases that are cited. On the surface it looks dumb, but what about the facts of the matter. On the TV news tonight, they showed a couple of clips, one showed a gang working on the track, with only one or two out of around 6 actually doing anything, I imagine this was to highlight the rail maintenance bit.
The other one, was something that could raise the shackles of people who have no idea. It was a shunter waving the driver on an interurban onto a stationary set & then connecting the jumpers & air hoses. Now that could easily be interpreted as unnecessary, by some in the media, Why do you need two people for that operation, & after the coupling up, where was the driver etc?
I agree with Rees that its ridiculous, but lets get the facts behind where he got it from. On another thread it has been commented on, how some of the private Maintrain work is actually covered over by shed staff, maybe if that was not done, & the so called repaired/overhauled sets were rejected & then sent back, a better balance could be seen.
O dear ferril, used the harbour bridge delay as an example to dive straight into privatisation, as usual cutting out some of the full details of the case.
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wongm
Minister for Railways
Joined: May 26, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 21, 2008
Location: Geelong, Victoria
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:18 pm
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Why does this remind me of the 1980s when the XPT needed an onboard electrician, who just sat there the entire journey?
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a6et
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:50 pm
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| wongm wrote: | | Why does this remind me of the 1980s when the XPT needed an onboard electrician, who just sat there the entire journey? |
This is where the rubbish gets out.
The TEO was not there to sit for the whole journey, the fact is that there were a lot of issues with the XPT then, & a lot to do with the air conditioning, his job was to ensure that it worked ok, & to repair it as needed. One other fact was that he was not just an electrician but, was one of the first, groups of multi skilled workers employed by the railways.
In those days, a TEO was not just an electrician, but also a mechanic, & repaired the mechanical side of things as well. They were employed, on all air conditioned trains, as well as on the DEB sets, & his job was to change the staff on single line stations, & was accredited with safe working.
Sort of reminds me of travelling home to Werris Creek on the daylight one day, & was sitting behind these 2 people, who every time we went through a station, bagged the SM for standing there doing nothing. Then on a couple of places we slowed for track work, & they looked out & saw the fettlers standing there, & they got bagged for being lazy, & bludging.
It got the best of me by the time we got to Whittingham when the same thing happened for the 3rd time. & I leaned over & tapped the woman on the shoulder, & said.
Excuse me, but have you ever considered that those station officers standing & watching the train go past, were doing so, to check & make sure there was nothing externallly happening to the train? & those men standing by the track, whom you bagged as being lazy & bludging, were actually track workers, & if they were not standing beside the line, to allow the train to go past, they would be under the train in many peices.
This shut them up, & I hope they understood. In this day & age, such people still exist. Back to the TEO, when they were employed on the trains, notice that there was no where near the delays to the trains they were on. In hot weather on the NT express both the old DEB set & the XPT they were kept busy with water & oil adding to the motors & radiators, just keeping the trains going.
Bit different these days. I really wonder whether or not, the wages of one man, would be worth it if, it improved the reliability & on time running as a result on the CL trains. If the reliability was picked up, I think that the trains would also pick up more users as a result.
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FieldShunt74
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:37 am
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| Hendo wrote: | Forgive my ignorance of the omnipotence of RP and how it is the salve for all isses, but why not raise the light globe issue with your union and supervisors and get the function back? Oh the unions would have been the one who organised that nice little demarcation to keep the work for the electricians under the dreadful OH&S.
Silly me would have thought that sort of thing would have been part of the drivers and guards duties when they first take a train and in emergencies |
I don't know quite where you're going with that but sorry for sharing.
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Ben_Daui
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Dec 24, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 22, 2008
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:25 am
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So in other words if a brake line comes off a carriage now the driver cannot reattach it & keep going?
Member 1058
SETS member 461
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nadnerb_2000
Chief Commissioner
Joined: May 07, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 20, 2008
Location: between my hat and my shoe soles
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:39 pm
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| Ben_Daui wrote: | | So in other words if a brake line comes off a carriage now the driver cannot reattach it & keep going? |
Train crews can access brake equipment as required basically.
Brakes are designed to fail in the "on" position, so it causes a train to stop. Usually the train crew fix it - they are on the scene. Under most circumstances, once the issue is identified and fixed the train may continue on it's merry way - either without any restrictions, or it'll be worked out of service, or it'll have restricted speed. In certain, exceptionally rare circumstances, a brake failure will render a train unable to move safely without assistance from another train.
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HMC1989
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Mar 13, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
Location: On the Short North
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:51 pm
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| Quote: | | What I would like to actually know is the specifics of the cases that are cited. On the surface it looks dumb, but what about the facts of the matter. On the TV news tonight, they showed a couple of clips, one showed a gang working on the track, with only one or two out of around 6 actually doing anything, I imagine this was to highlight the rail maintenance bit. |
The facts - Channel 7 were filming a T set moving into the liftshop at HMC The staff seen standing around were infact the liftshop crew making sure the set was moved safely onto the drop table. There was one "rubber necker" who was promptly told to pi$# off and get back to work.
| Quote: | | I agree with Rees that its ridiculous, but lets get the facts behind where he got it from. On another thread it has been commented on, how some of the private Maintrain work is actually covered over by shed staff, maybe if that was not done, & the so called repaired/overhauled sets were rejected & then sent back, a better balance could be seen. |
Not some but all Maintrain CCO's that return to HMC are inspected and if they fail are returned to maintrain.
The staff are sick and tired of being made the scape goats when this government "loses its marbles". Lets get the facts & figures right for maintenance failures. Only weeks ago HMC staff were praised for there involvement during WYD. We even got an umbrella to say thankyou. Sure Ill put my hand in saying that there are some areas that need fine tuning but its not that bad as made out by the government.
Anyway that's my 2 cents worth.
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a6et
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:01 pm
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| HMC1989 wrote: | | What I would like to actually know is the specifics of the cases that are cited. On the surface it looks dumb, but what about the facts of the matter. On the TV news tonight, they showed a couple of clips, one showed a gang working on the track, with only one or two out of around 6 actually doing anything, I imagine this was to highlight the rail maintenance bit. |
| Quote: | | The facts - Channel 7 were filming a T set moving into the liftshop at HMC The staff seen standing around were infact the liftshop crew making sure the set was moved safely onto the drop table. There was one "rubber necker" who was promptly told to pi$# off and get back to work. |
Sadly the rubber neck, is seen & is shown. That is what causes the issues.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I agree with Rees that its ridiculous, but lets get the facts behind where he got it from. On another thread it has been commented on, how some of the private Maintrain work is actually covered over by shed staff, maybe if that was not done, & the so called repaired/overhauled sets were rejected & then sent back, a better balance could be seen. |
Not some but all Maintrain CCO's that return to HMC are inspected and if they fail are returned to maintrain.
The staff are sick and tired of being made the scape goats when this government "loses its marbles". Lets get the facts & figures right for maintenance failures. Only weeks ago HMC staff were praised for there involvement during WYD. We even got an umbrella to say thankyou. Sure Ill put my hand in saying that there are some areas that need fine tuning but its not that bad as made out by the government.
Anyway that's my 2 cents worth. |
What you have illustrated is exactly what I was refering to, & its the sort of thing that somehow needs to get out to the general public, & the government shown the facts of it all. Sadly its pointless trying it with the opposition as they are too blinded the other way to see otherwise.
There is little doubt in my mind that, Rees, & others in the government have been fed misinformation & are acting on that.
Its not just this government but those in past also. As a result they know nothing relative to the facts. Even conehead, who should have known better, who hated rail, would certainly not reveal the real facts but, he would use the misinformation for his benefit.
Unless the polititions actually are taken to the locations, & shown what happens, they will not in any way belief what is said, & even when they see it, may well be hard pressed in seeing it. As I have been down that path with them in the past.
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loco2301
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Feb 04, 2006
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:49 pm
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Most politicians are nothing but greedy self centred egotistical a#$holes!
Going by this Rees, it sounds like things are not going to change for the better, but may only get worse.
I can't see how giving the place less than six months to turn things around is going to work, you can't really do much in 6 months.
Just another bloody politician putting a gun to the head of hard working men and woman on the front line.
Look forward to more of the blame game and finger pointing from incompetant politicians.
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