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Hendo
Train Controller
Joined: Jun 11, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 22, 2008
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 1:41 am
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SZ,
What sort of track is being run on the system today, weight, method of joining etc.?
Hendo
Last edited by Hendo on Mon May 26, 2008 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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benscaro
Deputy Commissioner
Joined: Jan 04, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 19, 2008
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 4:16 am
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| 12CSVT wrote: | | Quote: |
I have no idea what AHDL hoppers would be used for in Tasmania, with or without roofs. If there was any traffic suitable, I am sure AN - who had a lot of business sense, in retropsect, before they had their budgets slashed, post-1990 - would have transferred a bunch of them or the similar narrow gauge ENHV down there.
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Well they did do something similiar with the AHVY's, becoming superphosphate hoppers, HD1 to HD29
Cheers,
SZ |
I'm well aware of that, but it's not what I was replying to. The AHDL is an entirely different wagon to the AHVY, and it wasn't cut down, it was extended.
B.
President, Bring Back Rail to Yinkanie Committee
Hmmm . . . why isn't there an emoticon for schadenfreude ?
1447: The Year China Put a Knight Templar on Mars.
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12CSVT
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 19, 2008
Location: In a dark tunnel
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Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 1:39 am
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Once peak oil really starts to hit, electrification may well become more attractive across the country
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I am of the opinion that there will be more a move toward CNG which Australia has huge reserves of. If the current popular opinion against the present biggest method of power generation (coal) prevails, electrification may well shrink around the country, rather than expand, especially if stuff like carbon trading comes into force and pushes the cost of electricity through the roof.
Cheers,
SZ
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12CSVT
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 19, 2008
Location: In a dark tunnel
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Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 1:43 am
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| Quote: |
What sort of track is being run on the system today, weight, method of joining etc.?
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Continuously welded, mostly 90lb (If I recall correctly?), mix of wood and steel sleepers.
Cheers,
SZ
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DRR_Fireman
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Oct 22, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
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Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:28 pm
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Dont forget the 'concrete sleepers' between Devonport and Railton! 
Don River Railway, Tasmania -U/V class driver, Trainee Fireman, Trainee Railcar driver and Shunter extraordinaire!
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RTT_Rules
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 22, 2008
Location: Gladstone Qld
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Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 5:18 pm
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| 12CSVT wrote: | | Quote: |
Once peak oil really starts to hit, electrification may well become more attractive across the country
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I am of the opinion that there will be more a move toward CNG which Australia has huge reserves of. If the current popular opinion against the present biggest method of power generation (coal) prevails, electrification may well shrink around the country, rather than expand, especially if stuff like carbon trading comes into force and pushes the cost of electricity through the roof.
Cheers,
SZ |
Hi Steve/all,
You have to wonder how much coal power is really unpopular. So far there have only been minor power price increases to match export coal prices where the power stations run on exportable coal, ie NSW and Qld. Only minor increases from the forcing of "cleaner" power. Qld at least gives you the option to pay more for your power to use renewable energy, but its not hugely popular. It think should the populas at large be given the option to pay for solar/wind type clean power or coal and invest in clean coal technology they will vote for the later. There is also some interesting evidence that CO2 sequestation, mositure and baterica can close the loop to produce the next generation of natural gas fields.
And yes Toby dams for power generation do have one minor flaw in that if it doesn't rain or the system is over commited, they run low. The current oil issues is exacatly the same situation, but I believe it will rain again but unlikely for the world to return to $30/barrel due to 2 billion Chinese and Indians moving from horse and cart techology into more western style. Unlike what most of the hype says, its not restricted to oil and gas, but every major and many minor commodities in the world. Bought steel lately? Tassie's large scale hydro system makes development of about 1-1.5GW of installed capacity of wind generation a real viable option and I suspect if push comes to shove on power prices this is the most likely outcome. Any more than about 1.5GW and you need to modify some of the hydro plants to pump back, like snowy.
Anyway back OT, electrication will not shrink, as apart from CQ coal its only used for communter traffic and even 5 x power price will still make electric traction more viable. Also electric traction has the benefit of regen, thus reducing the demand overall, unlike any other fuel used on rail with a few minor techonolgy exceptions.
CNG is only cheap while no one else wants it, too late!
Trucks won't go broke with even $3/L fuel prices, as they haven't OS where they currently pay this now, so why here? If there is no alternative mode competetion, they just jack the price up and you will pay what they charge or starve. However a parrellel decent rail system help minimise the price rises even if it means waiting a little longer for the products.
Should Tassie be sparked, no. When you have at least 10 trains per day travelling between Devonport and Hobart, yes start lookin at it and the steep hills and relatively short runs in Tassie does give electric traction the edge when the traffic is there.
Rail's size unlike a truck does give it the option to use alot more fuels than just diesel and like Steve said, a gas of sorts is a viable option. Also Canola oil. Would be nice to see if Tassie could actually farm/harvest its own fuel for the rail system.
If I was dreaming I'd like to see low MTCE concrete sleepers and 80kg rail laid between Bridgewater and L'ton and D'port, along with major realignment, tunnels and 1000m passing loops every 40km with on board CTC). This would be the precurser for more freight and potentially opening the door for higher speed pax, such as CTT which could match car travel times.
Regards
Shane
For the record I don't pay more as I have a take or pay power contract on my house until 2012, similar to what say aluminium smelters have, although I'm looking at solar water heating and other options in the near future that don't cause significant finacial pain. I also work for Australia's largest power consumer using black coal and see both sides of the fence.
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BP4417
Junior Train Controller
Joined: Jan 14, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 21, 2008
Location: Launceston, Tasmania
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:22 pm
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I understand that coal burnt using the gas producer method have cleaner flue gas emissions than if burning with natural gas.
If my understanding is correct in my opinion there is room for new generation thermal power stations whilst clean coal technology is being developed.
With the price of oil not likely to fall coal will always be an attractive method of energy production for energy users.
Most of the rail I have seen on the Tasmanian system is 82 lb per yard, Melbourne trams run on heavier weight rail.
What do I think Tasmania needs in a Building Oz project
A cultural mindset change within the bureaucracy to rail transport.
Grade and Curve easing.
Trackbed upgrading to allow increased transit speeds thereby reducing costs to operators. Train speeds today are slower than in 1919.
The Governments 10 year deal with Pacific National to be rescinded so that all infrastructure needs are controlled by the State.
A real effort in ensuring true competitive neutrality between land transport modes.
A real effort be made that when decisions are made that has a negative effect on rail transport then some means be implemented to negate that effect on the industry.
Modern Locomotives - Maybe Diesel, Maybe Steam.
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GrahamH
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Aug 04, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 21, 2008
Location: At a terminal on the WWW.
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:52 pm
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Motive power upgrade to go with the track upgrades. A LNG or LPG fueled garratt using current technologies eg air con cab, electronics/software control, processor managed firing, multiple unit operation by one crew, cab ahead or even dogbone. Might even attract more tourists.
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RTT_Rules
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 22, 2008
Location: Gladstone Qld
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:42 pm
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| BP4417 wrote: |
Trackbed upgrading to allow increased transit speeds thereby reducing costs to operators. Train speeds today are slower than in 1919.
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This is something that gets over looked a fair bit.
If a say train with 2 x brand new QR2800 locos was to be used to run from D'port to Hobart hauling say 1000m worth of container wagons.
The locos cost about $3m each so $6-7m
Wagons 45 @ say $100k each = $4.5m So total cost ~ $11m
With current track speeds (say ~35km/hr) and loading times, they can only do one run every 24hr (just). And yes just because the train is ready doesn't mean the time is right for the freight.
This train can move 42,000 boxes's a year (1 per day 6 days a week)
If you want to move 84,000 boxes's a year you need to spend another $11m and double my operating and MTCe staff.
Now if I gave the track owners $11m what could they do for me in reducing time? Maybe 30min? Or alternatively I buy more cheaper locos and wagons to make the system more viable and increase my MTCE staff significantly to maintain the old gear and dealw ith derailments and breakdowns.
Now what happens if I want to move 250,000 box's a year, what do you do? Modern, fast stream lined. Or old gear, heavy staffing, breakdowns, derailments etc etc.
Moral of the story, unless train speeds and fixed (and we are not talking 115km/hr across the Nullabor type stuff), it will never be worth while to operate a modern fleet. A target of anything less than 60km/hr to me just isn't viable longterm.
Regards
Shane
LR is really a BS name. the only thing light about most LR systems is the rollingstock as they usually run on very heavy rail to justify sufficent rail life to off-set the very high cost of burying the track in concrete and lack of HR track machine equipment availability for the exposed track sections.
Regards
Shane
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Z1NorthernProgress2110
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Nov 30, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
Location: Burnie, Tasmania
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:54 pm
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Shane, can i ask why D'port-Hobart, not Burnie-Hobart?
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RTT_Rules
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 22, 2008
Location: Gladstone Qld
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:36 am
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| Z1NorthernProgress2110 wrote: | | Shane, can i ask why D'port-Hobart, not Burnie-Hobart? |
Hi steve,
Not trying to be too specific, just named it. But you may have a point, didn't Tasrail P/L actually get that trip down to below 12hr?
Regards
Shane
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tasrail
Moderator
Joined: Jan 14, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:25 am
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The Paper Train did a Burnie to Boyer round trip plus shunting day in/day out in less than 24 hours and that was under AN control (and the same pair of locos for weeks on end).
And look at it now . . .
Regards,
Stuart
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austrain
Train Controller
Joined: Dec 17, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 20, 2008
Location: NSW
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:50 am
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Remember the days of the 2 ZR's on the paper train, had great reliability on those two locos back then. How things change! even the early days of ATN we had good reliabilty on most locos. All changed when ED was booted out of Wisconsin.
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Z1NorthernProgress2110
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Nov 30, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
Location: Burnie, Tasmania
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:23 pm
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Ahhh yes, the good old days. Oh, austrain, shouldn't that be 1 ZP and 1 ZR? 
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austrain
Train Controller
Joined: Dec 17, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 20, 2008
Location: NSW
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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:43 am
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Always be ZR 1 to me, that what it was when it arrived and run that way for a while. Or banana 1 & banana 2. Or now Bucket of s&^t 1 Bucket of s^$t 2.
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