Re-opening the Cobram line to Passenger Traffic

 
  Somebody in the WWW Banned

Location: Banned
It Is more the number of people who will use at train service on a daily basis.
"NathanCastle"

Virtually none? How many people from places like Swan Hill, Warrnambool, etc have a need to be traveling long distances daily?

Won't find many of the same passengers on Wednesday's 07:35 from Swan Hill on Thursday's 07:35.

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  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
The number of people who live In a railway corridor Is really not irrelevant In outer country Victoria.
It Is more the number of people who will use at train service on a daily basis.
"NathanCastle"

Exactly, and of the Cobram line, there are very few.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
No, no selective manipulation at all. I haven't made my own breakdown of the Mildura line, like I said. Only the two Gippsland lines and the Cobram line. In all three of those statistical breakdowns, I included the statistical divisions immediately adjacent to the line, and, not touching a statistical division that is already serviced (eg. Congupna and North Shepparton were not included in the Cobram breakdown, as they are adjacent to Shepparton division.
"toxation"

Using the same style you used for Cobram:

Lucknow - 2,185
Wy Yung - 1,947
Mount Taylor - 739
Nicholson - 1,504
Bairnsdale - 7,797
East Bairnsdale - 948
Hillside - 459
Lindenow - 338
Lindenow Sth - 532
Hollands Landing - 655
Stratford - 1949
Briagalong - 937
Airly - 245
Eagle Point - 946
Paynesville - 2,967
Raymond Island - 479
Newlands Arm - 429

Gives 25,056.

Which of course leads to:

Lake Tyers Beach - 550
Swan Reach - 847
Lake Bunga - 460
Lakes Entrance - 4,094
Kalimna - 992
Nungurner - 406
Metung - 1,207

and

Orbost - 2,452
Jarrahmond - 178
Bete Bolong - 450
Newmerella - 336

Lakes Entrance 8556, Orbost 3416, and everything beyond and in between.

Certainly do, as they are localities closer to Numurkah than Shepparton.
"toxation"

So people are going to drive backwards from Tallygaroopna to catch the train from Numurkah, in order to go back past Tallygaroopna to Shep, rather than driving the equivalent distance to Shep and catching the train from there in the first place?

Err, no. I said that of the people I have spoken to, which I did say was not the majority, they were not interested in driving to Shepparton, 45-50 minutes drive away to catch the train, and instead preferred to drive the whole distance to Melbourne as a result. You appear to have selective assumptions.
"toxation"

So they'll drive from their farm etc. to some rural outpost but not to Shep?

They really need to get over it.

And if you had in fact read what I had said properly, you would have seen that I acknowledged this as an issue that a government would use in its defence of reinstatement, because of our broken federation.
"toxation"

I read what you wrote - what is wrong with the assertion

The State doesn't receive revenue to provide services for interstaters.

Nor should it be wasting it by providing rail services to tinpot towns.

Again, no I'm not, I have demonstrated figures that I have gained from elsewhere, and reaffirmed my knowledge that these were 2001 figures, and again reaffirmed that I would do my own study with 2006 figures. No manipulation, smoke or mirrors at all.
"toxation"

I'll say it again for you - those were town based figures

Mildura Rural City Council was about 50,000 in 2001.

Don't compare regional figures with those of townships.

An empty block of land in the middle of town is unproductive. I couldn't agree more. Fact is, it's not empty, and it has great potential for rail transport, in my opinion.

Just so some shack can see three trains a day?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The current State Government under Minister Peter Batchelor did investigate re-opening the passenger rail service between Shepparton and Cobram.

The subsequent report which was available on the DOI website recommended against re-opening owing to poor patronage projections beyond Shepparton, and also need to substantially upgrade track quality between Shepparton and  
Strathmerton .  So it will NOT happen.  
"kuldalai"


 Idea  It looks like it may be time for another report  Exclamation

As you know Kuldalai, patronage on V/line services has gone through the roof since the early Batchelor days


Patronage figures on Griffith - Shepparton Coach Services connecting trains are increasing actually, on most weekends two coaches are utilised ex Tocumwal, on the 1300 ex Griffith (Sundays) and they are both full by Numurkah. The passengers south of Numurkah unable to board the coach(es) are placed in taxis.
"SN7"


Once a service reaches two buses with occasional taxis thrown in, its actually cheaper to start running trains. Especially once word gets around about crowded buses, an immediate turn-off, and the possibility of waiting an indeterminate time for a taxi/s to turn up.

How many potential pax are actually turned off and not using the service  Question

As Tocumwal is the farthest north on the broad gauge that  trains can go, it would seem logical to upgrade to Toc', the bridge over the Murray notwithstanding and run a mini-bus connection from Strathmerton to Cobram.  

Mike.
  Somebody in the WWW Banned

Location: Banned
Once a service reaches two buses with occasional taxis thrown in, its actually cheaper to start running trains. Especially once word gets around about crowded buses, an immediate turn-off, and the possibility of waiting an indeterminate time for a taxi/s to turn up.
"The Vinelander"

So you're saying that it's cheaper to spend money on major trackwork restoring a railway line, upgrading stations etc and then running trains, than it is to run two buses instead of one on a daily basis? ExclamationQuestion

V/Line buses are reserved services - the worst you'd have is to have to sit next to someone else (rather than have 2 seats to yourself). Hardly offputting - would the train have guaranteed seating not next to anybody else?
  NottaGunzel Banned

Location: Banned


Patronage figures on Griffith - Shepparton Coach Services connecting trains are increasing actually, on most weekends two coaches are utilised ex Tocumwal, on the 1300 ex Griffith (Sundays) and they are both full by Numurkah. The passengers south of Numurkah unable to board the coach(es) are placed in taxis.
"SN7"


Once a service reaches two buses with occasional taxis thrown in, its actually cheaper to start running trains. Especially once word gets around about crowded buses, an immediate turn-off, and the possibility of waiting an indeterminate time for a taxi/s to turn up.


Mike.
"The Vinelander"



Mike,

you can't be serious - if you read it closely it's ONE DAY per Week - and a SUNDAY at that  Idea

You really think it's cheaper to run a train from Tocumwal to Shepparton on the basis of Sunday Patronage as opposed to an extra 50km for a Bus or Two  QuestionQuestion

You're starting to think like Queenslander  Rolling Eyes
  Sir Thomas Bent Minister for Railways

Location: Banned
I'm betting that VicTrack still own the premises, no doubt on 12 monthly contract.


Be more than a 12 month contract if the tenants had felt as confident to refit the interior to a funeral parlour or otherwise, as well as engage in the extensive modifications to make the station habitable.



I dunno. "far superior"?

Compare this, at Strathmerton,

to this track at Strathmerton ...

"574M"


Aside from the massive differences in zoom length making such a comaprison very deceiving, the Tocumwal line is undergoing recurring maintenance and has largish eucalypts near the track in some places after the regeneration of bushland from fires approximately 15 years ago that closed the line.

The Cobram line has been listed since about 1999 as minimum maintenance and has largish eucalypts in the trackbed following effective closure approximately 15 years ago.

That having been said, Cobram as a passenger destination's always been a bit dubious, even when it started in the 1980's

Really its existence was justified as an extension to replace the Tocumwal service that finished in 1979 pre New Deal which in itself was an extension from Numurkah as the primary destination in order to connect with NSWGR's Tocumwal-Narrandera service which AFAIK was discontinued at about the same time, with the passenger service being primarily hauled by a T class (as the line wasn't considered strong enough to take anything heavier) and a selection of non-airconditioned cars.  Therefore its market was also inclusive of the areas north of Tocumwal such as Finley, Berrigan and possibly Jerilderie and Narrandera if it was infrequent long-distance trips.

Importatntly, even in the halcyon days that everyone sees the railways being in the olden days that, upon examination, never really existed - Cobram was served by a 102hp Walker.  

That's how important the VR didn't think the Cobram service was.

I don't know the pre 1992 figures for the pass service (I'd have to look them up, they'd be from 1985 if memory serves me right - the report was used to justify closure of about 5 stations on the Goulburn Valley line and also for Beveridge I think) but I think you were not looking at anything greater than about 200 pax/week in both directions beyond Shepparton.

There is also only two, maybe three "stations" in Cobram, Strathmerton (long since flattened.  All that survives is the signal frame in a private collection) and Numurkah (reused for business purposes).

Put it this way - it was closed for a reason.  The fact that the points at Strathmerton were not straight-railed in about 2001 when Numurkah was heavily depeleted of sidings and Strathmerton was closed and de-signalled is a mystery.  

In fact I would not be surprised when the upcoming sleeper replacement and track rehab happens in the next month or two (and eliminating 574M over-dramatised track hole) that the opportunity would not be taken to quietly dispose of a set of points.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line


Patronage figures on Griffith - Shepparton Coach Services connecting trains are increasing actually, on most weekends two coaches are utilised ex Tocumwal, on the 1300 ex Griffith (Sundays) and they are both full by Numurkah. The passengers south of Numurkah unable to board the coach(es) are placed in taxis.
"SN7"


Once a service reaches two buses with occasional taxis thrown in, its actually cheaper to start running trains. Especially once word gets around about crowded buses, an immediate turn-off, and the possibility of waiting an indeterminate time for a taxi/s to turn up.


Mike.
"The Vinelander"



Mike,

you can't be serious - if you read it closely it's ONE DAY per Week - and a SUNDAY at that  Idea

You really think it's cheaper to run a train from Tocumwal to Shepparton on the basis of Sunday Patronage as opposed to an extra 50km for a Bus or Two  QuestionQuestion

You're starting to think like Queenslander  Rolling Eyes
"NottaGunzel"


I didn't realise the services operating through the remainder of the week are apparently running empty Exclamation
.
Idea  Perhaps the other services, bar Sunday should be cancelled altogether Rolling EyesRolling Eyes

PS look at the bigger picture, not just a snap-shot of today.
  NottaGunzel Banned

Location: Banned
Once a service reaches two buses with occasional taxis thrown in, its actually cheaper to start running trains. Especially once word gets around about crowded buses, an immediate turn-off, and the possibility of waiting an indeterminate time for a taxi/s to turn up.
"The Vinelander"

So you're saying that it's cheaper to spend money on major trackwork restoring a railway line, upgrading stations etc and then running trains, than it is to run two buses instead of one on a daily basis? ExclamationQuestion

"Somebody in the WWW"



Not only that "Somebody" , he's basing his comment on ONE DAY per week - A Sunday at that  Shocked


Mikelander can be very convincing ( sometimes ) but this ridiculous comment has put his credibility in question  RazzRazzRazzRazz
  drwaddles In need of a breath mint

Location: Newcastle
Didn't someone post here that dual gauge track had been installed at a level crossing in Strathmerton?
  NottaGunzel Banned

Location: Banned


Patronage figures on Griffith - Shepparton Coach Services connecting trains are increasing actually, on most weekends two coaches are utilised ex Tocumwal, on the 1300 ex Griffith (Sundays) and they are both full by Numurkah. The passengers south of Numurkah unable to board the coach(es) are placed in taxis.
"SN7"


Once a service reaches two buses with occasional taxis thrown in, its actually cheaper to start running trains. Especially once word gets around about crowded buses, an immediate turn-off, and the possibility of waiting an indeterminate time for a taxi/s to turn up.


Mike.
"The Vinelander"



Mike,

you can't be serious - if you read it closely it's ONE DAY per Week - and a SUNDAY at that  Idea

You really think it's cheaper to run a train from Tocumwal to Shepparton on the basis of Sunday Patronage as opposed to an extra 50km for a Bus or Two  QuestionQuestion

You're starting to think like Queenslander  Rolling Eyes
"NottaGunzel"


I didn't realise the services operating through the remainder of the week are apparently running empty :!:
.
Idea  Perhaps the other services, bar Sunday should be cancelled altogether Rolling EyesRolling Eyes

PS look at the bigger picture, not just a snap-shot of today.
"The Vinelander"



Sorry - I didn't realise they were running full  Question

You obviously know they are  Question

I am looking at the bigger picture - you're looking at the glossy one ( Sunday )  Razz
  fullofrubbish Assistant Commissioner

Location: Brunswick
V/Line buses are reserved services


Not all Somebody in the WWW. If you inspect the Shepparton/Griffith timetable you'll find reservations are not available on any connecting Cobram/Tocumwal/Griffith coach services except for the C801 (915am from Cobram) or C321 (400pm from Seymour) M-F. You used to be able to reserve on all the connecting coach service, but for some reason this was taken away from the majority with the introduction of the April 27 t/t.

Patronage figures on Griffith - Shepparton Coach Services connecting trains are increasing actually, on most weekends two coaches are utilised ex Tocumwal, on the 1300 ex Griffith (Sundays) and they are both full by Numurkah. The passengers south of Numurkah unable to board the coach(es) are placed in taxis.
"SN7"


And majority of the time these coaches have to continue on to Melbourne because only an N-Set is provided for the Sunday 1705 up Shep working! It's always a complete and utter chaos at Shep station come late Sunday afternoon. Surely with a bit of effort Vline could get a FN set up to run the service.

you can't be serious - if you read it closely it's ONE DAY per Week - and a SUNDAY at that
"NottaGunzel"


Why should a Sunday be any different from another day of the week? Shouldn't a high level of service aim to be provided 7 days a week? In fact you'll find Notta Gunzel, that for inter-city train and coach services, it is the weekend services that matter more than M-F. This is reflected in the old ticketing prices (peak friday/sat/sun/monday: off peak tues/wed/thurs).
  toxation Chief Commissioner

Location: Cobram, Victoria
Didn't someone post here that dual gauge track had been installed at a level crossing in Strathmerton?
"drwaddles"


Yes, I did about a fortnight ago. The Murray Valley Highway has been replaced with dual gauge track.
  NottaGunzel Banned

Location: Banned
[quote="fullofrubbish"][quote]
[quote="NottaGunzel"]you can't be serious - if you read it closely it's ONE DAY per Week - and a SUNDAY at that [/quote]

Why should a Sunday be any different from another day of the week? [b]Shouldn't a high level of service aim to be provided 7 days a week?[/b] In fact you'll find Notta Gunzel, that for inter-city train and coach services, it is the weekend services that matter more than M-F. This is reflected in the old ticketing prices (peak friday/sat/sun/monday: off peak tues/wed/thurs).[/quote]

Not quite - we're talking about JUSTIFICATION for that high level of service SEVEN days a week based on ONE DAY per week.

And does it warrant upgrading track to Passenger Standard , Maintainence and All Associated Costs when another bus will do the job at far less cost despite what Mikelander may think. 8)
  gippslander Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland, Vic
Cobram is clearly not on the radar for any trains. However, one possibility that has been canvassed elsewhere on this forum is Ballarat-Maryborough, which reprersents a good sized town with soime smaller places along the route to provide more pax. Plus, the line is receiving some much needed maintenance. Could a couple of Ballarat services be extended to Maryborough each day...even at less than acceptable speed?
  Ballast_Plough Chief Commissioner

Location: Lilydale, Vic
My proposal would be a Geelong - Maryborough Sprinter that links with a Melb - Ballarat or Melb - Ararat service.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
[quote="NottaGunzel"][quote="fullofrubbish"][quote]
[quote="NottaGunzel"]you can't be serious - if you read it closely it's ONE DAY per Week - and a SUNDAY at that [/quote]

Why should a Sunday be any different from another day of the week? [b]Shouldn't a high level of service aim to be provided 7 days a week?[/b] In fact you'll find Notta Gunzel, that for inter-city train and coach services, it is the weekend services that matter more than M-F. This is reflected in the old ticketing prices (peak friday/sat/sun/monday: off peak tues/wed/thurs).[/quote]

Not quite - we're talking about JUSTIFICATION for that high level of service SEVEN days a week based on ONE DAY per week.

And does it warrant upgrading track to Passenger Standard , Maintainence and All Associated Costs when another bus will do the job at far less cost despite what Mikelander may think. 8)[/quote]

[color=darkblue] Perhaps you could suggest, just how many buses and taxis, covering one scheduled service should be running up and down the Goulburn Valley highway before the whole scenario becomes so ludicrous, that the penny drops and someone says 'lets extend the Shep train to Tocumwal'

Again, you're like some other posters, who shall remain nameless, who think of today, and not that patronage on the Griffith /Shepparton service has apparently increased by how many percent in the past, say 5 years Question

Mike.

PS, if you are anti-investment in regional rail infrastructure for pax trains, just say so [/color] Rolling Eyes
  PClark Chief Commissioner

'Way back in '69 I missed the Southern Aurora at Central.

(Fortunate for me, as this was the service involved in the Violet Town disaster)

I travelled to Melbourne in a TAM sleeper on the South Mail to Narrandera, on the 400 class motor and trailer to Tocumwal and on the VR train (T BS AS CE) to Melbourne.

I was the only passenger to transfer between the NSW and Victorian trains at Tocumwal.  Probably passengers from Griffith and Narrandera would have taken the Riverina Express, or it's connecting railcar to Junee, changed and lunched there and caught the Intercapital Daylight to Melbourne.  (Or, in those days there were probably several daily coachesalong the Newell Highway, linking Melbourne and SE Queensland via the "inland route")

Seriously though, I think that the greatest challenge for Vline and the government is not whether passengers for Cobram and Mildura have to change to a road coach at Shepparton or Swan Hill but the problem of chronic overcrowding on peak services closer to Melbourne, due, fundamentally, to problems of housing affordability and job availability but exacerbated by service improvements, lower fares, higher petrol costs and, most recently, by the Brumby goverment's $ 3,000 "bonus" on new "regional" houses which includes towns such as Bacchus Marsh and Wallan.
  NottaGunzel Banned

Location: Banned
[quote="The Vinelander"][quote="NottaGunzel"][quote="fullofrubbish"][quote]
[quote="NottaGunzel"]you can't be serious - if you read it closely it's ONE DAY per Week - and a SUNDAY at that [/quote]

Why should a Sunday be any different from another day of the week? [b]Shouldn't a high level of service aim to be provided 7 days a week?[/b] In fact you'll find Notta Gunzel, that for inter-city train and coach services, it is the weekend services that matter more than M-F. This is reflected in the old ticketing prices (peak friday/sat/sun/monday: off peak tues/wed/thurs).[/quote]

Not quite - we're talking about JUSTIFICATION for that high level of service SEVEN days a week based on ONE DAY per week.

And does it warrant upgrading track to Passenger Standard , Maintainence and All Associated Costs when another bus will do the job at far less cost despite what Mikelander may think. 8)[/quote]

[color=darkblue] Perhaps you could suggest, just how many buses and taxis, covering one scheduled service should be running up and down the Goulburn Valley highway before the whole scenario becomes so ludicrous, that the penny drops and someone says 'lets extend the Shep train to Tocumwal'

Again, you're like some other posters, who shall remain nameless, who think of today, and not that patronage on the Griffith /Shepparton service has apparently increased by[b] how many percent [/b] Question in the past, say 5 years Question

Mike.

PS, if you are anti-investment in regional rail infrastructure for pax trains, just say so [/color] Rolling Eyes[/quote]


Exactly Mike "Big On Rhetoric" Lander -- HOW MANY PER CENT ??

All we've seen is some hearsay statement that on SUNDAYS there's often 2 Buses - NO FIGURES to back up anything you've said Rolling Eyes

All we cam assume is that you don't know Idea

In fact that's probably the case isn't it Question

Someone on Railpage makes a statement that on Sundays the Griffith Service (often) requires TWO Buses and next thing Mikelander reckons that's good enough to extend the train to Tocumwal Rolling Eyes

You made the statement MikeLander - now tell us - HOW MANY PERCENT Question

Now is the time to back up your other ridiculous statement that it's cheaper to run a train than a couple of buses - bearing in mind all the costs associated with re-instating Passenger Services to Tocumwal.

Is this just another "Off The Top Of Mikelander's Head" comment Question

Where is the JUSTIFICATION for this assertion Mike ?

Or is it just more rhetoric Question
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Don't ask Mikelander to substantiate his rhetoric with fact - that would eliminate his hilarious posts entirely
  NottaGunzel Banned

Location: Banned
Don't ask Mikelander to substantiate his rhetoric with fact - that would eliminate his hilarious posts entirely
"ZH836301"



Why not ?

It's even more entertaining to watch him "TRY" Puke

Maybe he can get together with Wilfy - now that would be a "Double Act" worth paying to see  RazzRazz

Over to you Mr. "How Many Percent" Mike "Big On Rhetoric" Lander

ClapClapClap
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
The demand, upon occasion, has been for three buses right from Griffith, which Dysons, I am led to understand, won't do.

Two from Echuca to Griffith, pick-up, run service, yes.
Three from Echuca to Griffith, pick-up, run service,  no.

Dunno why.
  NottaGunzel Banned

Location: Banned
The demand, upon occasion, has been for three buses right from Griffith, which Dysons, I am led to understand, won't do.

Two from Echuca to Griffith, pick-up, run service, yes.
Three from Echuca to Griffith, pick-up, run service,  no.

Dunno why.
"574M"




Fair enough - but running the train from Tocumwal instead of Shepparton is bloody useless in fixing that problem  Shocked
  Brian 2009 Chief Commissioner

Location: N.S.W.
Don't ask Mikelander to substantiate his rhetoric with fact - that would eliminate his hilarious posts entirely
"ZH836301"



Why not ?

It's even more entertaining to watch him "TRY" Puke

Maybe he can get together with Wilfy - now that would be a "Double Act" worth paying to see  RazzRazz

Over to you Mr. "How Many Percent" Mike "Big On Rhetoric" Lander

ClapClapClap
"NottaGunzel"

Good to see you have a sence of humour.

Just out of interest, how many letters have you written to MP's lately and how many letters to the editor have you written.

You can put us down for being up front and honest but you can't stop us from campaigning in what we believe that can be achieved.

Regards,
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Don't ask Mikelander to substantiate his rhetoric with fact - that would eliminate his hilarious posts entirely
"ZH836301"



Why not ?

It's even more entertaining to watch him try

Maybe he can get together with Wilfy - now that would be a "Double Act" worth paying to see  

Over to you Mr. "How Many Percent" Mike "Big On Rhetoric" Lander

"NottaGunzel"


Obviously over 100% Exclamation

On some scheduled services, if you have 1 bus, then add a second bus, because the first is full, then on occasion add a taxi or 2, because the second bus is also full, obviously there has to be an over a 100% pax increase Rolling Eyes

Thanks 574M for info on the buses ex Griffith.

My point is some posters are obsessed with not expanding regional rail.

Probably the same posters (search is our friend) who still maintain extending pax services to Ararat and the RFR was waste of precious $$ that could have been spent on their beloved sparks.

I'll stand by, and be vindicated at some point in the not too distant future, by my argument regarding the Mildura line unless it's killed stone dead by the government.

As for Griffith, Melbourne is the main city for visits to doctors and other professional services. Particularly as the boomers get older and require specialist services and it's too far to drive, patronage can only increase further.

Will the anti-regional rail expansion pressure group also campaign against Vline services to Wagga once the standard gauge is completed Question

Perhaps the anti pax posters could stand at Albury station with protest banners, objecting to Vline trains travelling north-bound beyond Albury  QuestionRolling Eyes

Mike.

PS, ZH it's good to see you can actually string two sentences together.

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