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KRviator
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Joined: Apr 23, 2005
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Cab of a 90 Class
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:29 pm
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| 3'6 wrote: | | I fail to see how thousands of people spending money in Sydney will not help the local economy. |
As an example, let's say that there will be 100,000 visitors to Sydney for this event. Each of those 100,000 visitors would need to spend enough money that NSW would recieve (in taxes) at least $1000. This would offset the $100M that the NSW Government is spending to host this event.
How much would each "Pilgrim" need to spend to ensure that magic $1,000 revenue? Who knows, but it would be a lot more than they're going to spend, ensuring the NSW taxpayer's are going to be worse off than if we had not hosted the event.
| I wrote: | IMHO, everything about this bloody WYD is a disruption to appease the minority. | FS74 wrote: | | A bloody large minority. |
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I have to disagree with that comment. How many of the hundreds of thousands of Christians in Sydney, right now are going to go to this event? Very few I'd bet. It'll mostly be outsiders and even then, they are still the minority in comparison to the rest of Sydney, NSW and Australia.
I'll be the first to admit and support the premise that Australia was founded by god-fearin' Christians and on Christian principles, but having said that, fail to see why we should support only the Christians in such an extravagent way. That Muslim school in Camden was rejected in part because the supporting infrastructure isn't there. How much of that infrastructure would $100M buy? But the Government won't spend it to help the Muslim's will they?
| I wrote: | I'm all for religion and all that other rubbish, but as far as I'm concerned, religion should be left at your front door. | FS74 wrote: | | Yes, you come across as very sympathetic. Which side of your front door? |
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Obviously I'm not overly religious, but, why should your choice of faith impact on my way of life? Why should my elected Government give tens or hundreds of millions of dollars to support an event that it is your choice to embrace? IF the Church want's to hold a "World-anything-day" then the Church should be the one that foots the bill. If I want to host a World Gunzel Day I'd foot the bill myself.
As for leaving your worship at the front door, case in point: Not long back, a Muslim woman was refused entry to a Gold Coast bank while they were doing a cash exchange because she was dressed to impress in her full length Burka with nothing showing apart from her eyes, as is their custom. She then complained and tried to sue on the grounds that her civil rights had been infringed because she was discriminated against on the basis of her religion (Being the wearing of the Burka).
If I have to take off my bike helmet when I walk into a bank, she should be expected to comply as well. Afterall, it seems like the perfect cover to hijack a bank, or anything else. Just dress as a Muslim woman...
The underlying fault I have with the whole shebang is not that they're altering train services or anything like that, but that the government sees no problem with giving away $100M to what is essentially a church event, yet we have to fight tooth and nail to get any sort of improvement in the funding for any "worthwhile" events, or infrastructure improvements, or a new hospital ward. Michael Costya says we need to flog off the power grid to pay for all these improvements but here they are giving away $100M.
$100M is an awful lot of Type F level crossings, perhaps another 20 or so Tangara trainset's, or god knows how many busses or other improvements we have potentially missed out on because we've underwritten World Youth Day.
Trainee Driver, Pacific National
Comments made are strictly the opinion of the author and do not reflect the opinions of the ADF, Pacific National, Freight Australia or the Boy Scouts of Antartica.
My fotopic gallery: http://KRviator.fotopic.net |
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FieldShunt74
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:59 pm
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| KRviator wrote: | | How many of the hundreds of thousands of Christians in Sydney, right now are going to go to this event? Very few I'd bet. It'll mostly be outsiders and even then, they are still the minority in comparison to the rest of Sydney, NSW and Australia. |
Why are you pigeon-holeing Christians? This WYD is, as far as I know, a Catholic shindig. I don't think the Anglicans or the Baptists or the Orthodox churches or the Hillsong loonies are participating. Even on their own, there are a goodly number of Catholics in the community.
You don't need a majority to get government funding. You apply, you state your case and if you have the clout, you get it. Small groups who make a lot of noise can get a lot out of the government. As groups go, the Catholics are a big group.
| KRviator wrote: | | I'll be the first to admit and support the premise that Australia was founded by god-fearin' Christians and on Christian principles, but having said that, fail to see why we should support only the Christians in such an extravagent way. That Muslim school in Camden was rejected in part because the supporting infrastructure isn't there. How much of that infrastructure would $100M buy? But the Government won't spend it to help the Muslim's will they? |
What has a private school whose development application was rejected on planning grounds have to do with WYD? You think it would have passed if it was a Catholic school?
| KRviator wrote: | | Obviously I'm not overly religious, but, why should your choice of faith impact on my way of life? Why should my elected Government give tens or hundreds of millions of dollars to support an event that it is your choice to embrace? IF the Church want's to hold a "World-anything-day" then the Church should be the one that foots the bill. If I want to host a World Gunzel Day I'd foot the bill myself. |
Firstly, I'm not embracing WYD or Catholicism. Secondly, if you have a problem with your elected government, write to your local member or change the way you vote.
You are outnumbered by Catholics, Christians, everybody... If you can gather enough people with common beliefs, build a tradition and legitimacy of a major world religion and organise a "World whatever Day" of your own, and the Government still won't back it, then you might have something to whinge about.[/quote]
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Bwana
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jul 21, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:59 pm
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All I see here is a remarkably poor attempt to dump on christians.
Southern countrylink trains won't stop at Strathfield - big whoop. I'm sure the majority of customers will appreciate being in Sydney 10 minutes early 
How many people whinged about the freakin' olympics? They spent literally billions on that fortnight-long event, and for what? To honour a bunch of dropkicks that ALREADY sponge off the public purse so they can train at our expese to run fast or whatever. The state pockets are STILL reelling from that, not to mention the endless whinging from the building industry because we're not rebuilding tho whole city in 7 years again.
I'm willing to put my left nut up as an ante to bet there are a load more catholics in this 'ere city than there are olympians, and nobody had the slightest issue with the disruption or cost they put us through. Was anyone here one of the ones that had to have their garbage bin in before sunrise? Any truckies here that couldn't even enter the bloody city during the day?
How much did APEC cost? For that they closed half the bloody city down, including a couple of railway stations, and for what - a DOZEN people?
WYD is way down on both the cost and disruption scale, hardly worth mentioning. I am a christian, but not a catholic, so have no part in WYD in case anyone thinks otherwise.
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TE2815
Minister for Railways
Joined: Mar 19, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 27, 2008
Location: Under the newsdesk !
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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:22 pm
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| Bwana wrote: | | Southern countrylink trains won't stop at Strathfield - big whoop. I'm sure the majority of customers will appreciate being in Sydney 10 minutes early |
Where do you get 10 minutes early 
SN56 Campbelltown 0956 Kingsgrove 1021 Sydney 1041
49-F Campbelltown 1001 Kingsgrove 1039
SP32 Campbelltown 1009, so at best that would be 1041 Kingsgrove where 49-F gets out of the way and then using SN56 sectional running times without any other obstructions at the other end would arrive Sydney at 1101 for 5 minutes late. So it is only 5 minutes but that is still a disruption to the service.
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Boris_the_Foul
Station Master
Joined: Oct 13, 2007
Last Visited: Jun 21, 2008
Location: Bowenfelski, City of Greater Moscow
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Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:35 am
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Is extra path through Strathfield for ze new Popemobile. Is Hi-Rail one.
Canonical Affecting Network is declared (VatiCAN). Also ze TOC Indulgence.
In Soviet Russia, train catches YOU!
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Oldfart
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jan 01, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: 21 miles from Griffiths Bros Teas
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Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:27 am
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What a pack of party poopers! All that anti-Catholic tripe their old bigoted auntie told them about it surfacing as "concerns about costs". I might be an atheist (well maybe a bit pantheist as well), but I really believe in religious freedom, and don't have irrational fears and vexations about those with religious belief systems.
It will be interesting to see the actual numbers. I think 100,000 is a bit low. I can recall 500,000 locals alone rocking up to a papal event at Randwick in Sydney back in 1970, and that was at the height of a lot of "pill-based" antagonism towards the dude.
As FS74 has elucidated, Catholics are an awfully big minority, probably the largest single denomination in the country. They're also probably the most core "Australian". Australian politics is still dominated by the ghosts of Irish Catholic labour versus conservative English gentry rule. Without them we would be as class ridden and toffy nosed as the Poms. "True blue" Australian bush music is really just Irish folk transplanted and we forget that Ned Kelly spoke with a paddy's accent.
As Bwana has pointed out, there are a lot of big events for minorities that involve big government costs, from club football matches to the Olympics, from Anzac Day to the gay and lesbian Mardi Gras, from NYE fireworks to the QEII in harbour. I haven't attended any of those in years, but wouldn't begrudge any of them for anybody else.
If anything, this one should bring in overseas tourist money much more than most. Yeah, there's a risk it won't; but there's also a good likelihood it will. Even if it doesn't, so what; I've had to personally subsidise Railcorp (and all its employees, passengers and gunzels) for most of my life; but I don't go round suggesting it should be stopped, because even it has benefits beyond the dollar. The "I'm having to fork out for these bastards" argument is a crock.
PS: LOL Boris. And none of your Commie tricks while he's here. He has his own Swiss Guards for ze train you know!
A man of genius makes no mistakes; his errors become the portals of discovery (James Joyce).
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574M
White Guru
Joined: Mar 15, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 28, 2008
Location: Shepparton
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Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:27 am
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| KRviator wrote: | | How many of the hundreds of thousands of Christians in Sydney, right now are going to go to this event? Very few I'd bet. |
Uh, its a bit wider than Sydney, as far as Australia goes. Some other churches in Australia are promoting and attending this event. Its been covered in the media. Google might have something.
And, uh. Youth. You don't want to inspire youth with noble ideals? I'm pretty certain I read about the world youth flocking to Rome when JP II lay dying, and many were not RC. Many were interviewed saying he inspired them to live a noble life. Many said he worked and achieved peace in a lot of ways, in a lot of countries. Youth look up to that kinda thing, KR.
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hidden
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 26, 2008
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Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:18 am
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| Oldfart wrote: |
As Bwana has pointed out, there are a lot of big events for minorities that involve big government costs, from club football matches to the Olympics, from Anzac Day to the gay and lesbian Mardi Gras, from NYE fireworks to the QEII in harbour. I haven't attended any of those in years, but wouldn't begrudge any of them for anybody else.
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The catholics shouldn't be so selfish and share the event with another group. Maybe something along the lines of Catholic Gay World Youth Day.
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion."
..........Robert M. Pirsig
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21C123
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
Last Visited: Sep 6, 2008
Location: In the inspection pit checking the "bicycle chains"
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:59 am
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| 574M wrote: | | KRviator wrote: | | How many of the hundreds of thousands of Christians in Sydney, right now are going to go to this event? Very few I'd bet. |
Uh, its a bit wider than Sydney, as far as Australia goes. Some other churches in Australia are promoting and attending this event. Its been covered in the media. Google might have something.
And, uh. Youth. You don't want to inspire youth with noble ideals? I'm pretty certain I read about the world youth flocking to Rome when JP II lay dying, and many were not RC. Many were interviewed saying he inspired them to live a noble life. Many said he worked and achieved peace in a lot of ways, in a lot of countries. Youth look up to that kinda thing, KR. |
Well pointed out 574M, but you are still thinking on the small side! (thanks also to FS74 and Oldfart for putting a bit of common sense into this thread).
It is clear that KR and TE2815 don't understand the scale or importance of WYD. The event is much bigger even than 574M's suggestion. I think you will find that the numbers attending the main Mass will be more in the order of 500,000 - as FS74 says, that's a pretty big "minority" in a city the size of Sydney! There are large numbers of people travelling from all over the world to the WYD events in Sydney (and also in Melbourne) (and spending their money while in town to the benefit of commerce in Sydney) - many individual dioceses here in England, for example, have large groups attending, so TE2815's "economic concerns" are simply incorrect - it will more than pay for itself. It is a fair bet that many of those attending as first time visitors to Sydney will want to return in future as tourists etc when they see what Sydney has to offer.
How can minor alterations to a few services on one line to accomodate an event which is of huge significance to a very large portion of the population of Sydney (despite what you might think to the contrary) possibly cause you to be so upset! Do you get so angry when certain minority interest street parades in Sydney massively disrupt bus services and traffic each year? What about when train services are mucked around with for some "minority interest" pop concert or sporting event? For goodness sake, a visit from the Holy Father is a bit more important (and inspiring to many people) than the Olympics or some "pop star".
I can only assume that KR and TE2815 would have complained bitterly in December 1970 that the NSWGR returned 3801, 3813, 3642 etc to revenue service in order to cope with the extra rail traffic resulting from the visit of the then Holy Father, Paul VI and would have refused on principle to go and see/photograph the extra steam hauled services...!!! 
TimP
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JatzCrackers
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Apr 26, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 27, 2008
Location: Castle Crackers, Lithgovia
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TE2815
Minister for Railways
Joined: Mar 19, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 27, 2008
Location: Under the newsdesk !
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:59 pm
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| 21C123 wrote: | | It is clear that KR and TE2815 don't understand the scale or importance of WYD. The event is much bigger even than 574M's suggestion. I think you will find that the numbers attending the main Mass will be more in the order of 500,000 - as FS74 says, that's a pretty big "minority" in a city the size of Sydney! There are large numbers of people travelling from all over the world to the WYD events in Sydney (and also in Melbourne) (and spending their money while in town to the benefit of commerce in Sydney) - many individual dioceses here in England, for example, have large groups attending, so TE2815's "economic concerns" are simply incorrect - it will more than pay for itself. It is a fair bet that many of those attending as first time visitors to Sydney will want to return in future as tourists etc when they see what Sydney has to offer. |
I am not doubting the fact of who will attend. The cost to the tax payers of NSW and Australia are a concern. JUst last week it was reported that the Pontiff may get punted out of Hyde Park as the church did not pay the fee to Sydney City Council by the due date. The church thought the NSW Government was paying it. What else do they think the tax payers are paying for If they want to come here they can pay for the privilege of visiting Sydney  .
| 21C123 wrote: | | For goodness sake, a visit from the Holy Father is a bit more important (and inspiring to many people) than the Olympics or some "pop star". |
I beg to differ. I think more people would be interested in the Olympics the pyjama brigade.
| 21C123 wrote: | | I can only assume that KR and TE2815 would have complained bitterly in December 1970 that the NSWGR returned 3801, 3813, 3642 etc to revenue service in order to cope with the extra rail traffic resulting from the visit of the then Holy Father, Paul VI and would have refused on principle to go and see/photograph the extra steam hauled services...!!! |
I was only 3 
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PClark
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Apr 01, 2003
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:53 pm
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Quote:-
"For goodness sake, a visit from the Holy Father is a bit more important (and inspiring to many people) than the Olympics or some "pop star"."
Holy Father?
My partner and I are Anglo-Catholics and, as such, we recognise Benedict as the "Bishop of Rome." Nothing more.
Any way, I'm in Melbourne so I'm not affected.
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21C123
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
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Location: In the inspection pit checking the "bicycle chains"
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Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:34 am
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| PClark wrote: | Quote:-
"For goodness sake, a visit from the Holy Father is a bit more important (and inspiring to many people) than the Olympics or some "pop star"."
Holy Father?
My partner and I are Anglo-Catholics and, as such, we recognise Benedict as the "Bishop of Rome." Nothing more. |
Probably a discussion beyond the scope (or tolerance) of this board!
| PClark wrote: |
Any way, I'm in Melbourne so I'm not affected. |
I think Archbishop Hart over at St Patrick's Cathedral has a few events planned for Melbourne, but probably nothing likely to disrupt rail services too much!!!
TimP
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21C123
Chief Train Controller
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TE2815
Minister for Railways
Joined: Mar 19, 2004
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Location: Under the newsdesk !
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Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:33 am
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| 21C123 wrote: | | TE2815 wrote: |
| 21C123 wrote: | | I can only assume that KR and TE2815 would have complained bitterly in December 1970 that the NSWGR returned 3801, 3813, 3642 etc to revenue service in order to cope with the extra rail traffic resulting from the visit of the then Holy Father, Paul VI and would have refused on principle to go and see/photograph the extra steam hauled services...!!! |
I was only 3 |
...but I hope already an avid rail enthusiast!? |
Not that early on.
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