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awsgc24
Minister for Railways
Joined: Feb 18, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Sydney, NSW
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Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:16 pm
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| KRviator wrote: | | Bing wrote: | | There was a Telstra video shown at the launch that had footage of the new towers being constructed - one was clearly on the Ulan line close to one of the tunnels. |
Now why in the effin hell would they spend megabucks putting CTC through to Ulan then remove it all in a couple of years for this ATMS setup? Complete waste of money if you ask me. |
Firstly, congestion on the Ulan line may be so bad that they cannot afford to wait for the new safeworking system, and have to install CTC as a stop gap.
Secondly, power worked points are needed by the new system, and these are supplied by CTC, which is not a waste at all.
Thirdly, the new system is not operational yet, nor is it clear how long we have to wait for it.
Similarly, why did RailCorp install old fashioned and obsolete train stops on the Kiama line, when modern ATP does a much better job. (Answer see First, Second and Third).
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nutbagg
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Feb 11, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 18, 2008
Location: In Willy Wonka's Chocolate Lake
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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:37 am
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| TE2815 wrote: | The new signalling is supposed to replace everything. All signalling including current RVD territory signalling runs via the phone network not track circuiting. Based upond GPS positioning via phone network of train locations whether signals in the rear are in a proceed aspect or not.
Allegedly  |
No trackside signals at all it will be in cab signalling or authorities (sounds like ASW) with something like block points or Limit Of Authority for mid sections. Supposedly will do away with the need for track ciruits at all? They say that stuff like xings etc will be controlled by the system using the GPS to monitor trains location.
Question I have are -broken rail detection?, vehicles left in section unless every train has a EOT that can monitor the rear of the train?, what is the backup system when the mainframe crashes (it will) we go back to Train Order working?
The test section will be Coonamia to Stirling North and maybe to Whyalla later. But as I have yet to hear anything from the US that is good about the systems they are developing over there (ATMS is a rip off of one of these) not holding my breath!
Regarding the Next G roll out Telstra has been using alot of the exsisting radio towers to install the phone cells onto so maybe thats why we haven't seen many new towers.
Mate, if that loco pulls as hard as you do, it'd move anything.
I'd still rather have an ALCo.
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YM-Mundrabilla
Chief Commissioner
Joined: 0
Last Visited: Nov 29, 2008
Location: Finke CAR
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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:41 am
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GPS can do wonderful things, so they say, but my understanding is that it cannot tell (fail safe and with certainty) whether a train is on the mainline at a cross or in the loop.
This seems fairly fundamental to me.
YM Mundrabilla
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Reality has been omitted for clarity.
Why is it that there are so many in high places who prefer activity to achievement?
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TE2815
Minister for Railways
Joined: Mar 19, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 27, 2008
Location: Under the newsdesk !
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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:41 pm
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| nutbagg wrote: | | TE2815 wrote: | The new signalling is supposed to replace everything. All signalling including current RVD territory signalling runs via the phone network not track circuiting. Based upond GPS positioning via phone network of train locations whether signals in the rear are in a proceed aspect or not.
Allegedly |
No trackside signals at all it will be in cab signalling or authorities (sounds like ASW) with something like block points or Limit Of Authority for mid sections. Supposedly will do away with the need for track ciruits at all? They say that stuff like xings etc will be controlled by the system using the GPS to monitor trains location. |
 I missed that bit my post. The earlier argument with In-Cab Signals was, I am led to believe, that the smaller operators using heritage type locomotives (47s, 44s, MKI 48s etc...) may not be in a position to equip their locomotives accordingly.
| nutbagg wrote: | | Question I have are -broken rail detection?, vehicles left in section unless every train has a EOT that can monitor the rear of the train?, what is the backup system when the mainframe crashes (it will) we go back to Train Order working? |
All valid points raised the first time round with no answers back then either.
| nutbagg wrote: | | Regarding the Next G roll out Telstra has been using alot of the exsisting radio towers to install the phone cells onto so maybe thats why we haven't seen many new towers. |
The NextG did indeed just replace the CDMA equipment. The original point was that towers were to be erected along the rail corridor to eliminate black spots i the network where the rail required a service and the community would also benefit, however this is yet to be fulfilled.
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MD
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Dec 10, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Canbera
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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:58 pm
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I wouddnt be holding my breath waiting for any new signalling systems to be installed, at least not in any States where ARTC doesnt OWN the track outright.
Approval would be needed by both the track owners and the State Rail regulators.
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cootanee
Train Controller
Joined: Apr 28, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
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nutbagg
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Feb 11, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 18, 2008
Location: In Willy Wonka's Chocolate Lake
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:20 pm
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| TE2815 wrote: | | nutbagg wrote: | | TE2815 wrote: | The new signalling is supposed to replace everything. All signalling including current RVD territory signalling runs via the phone network not track circuiting. Based upond GPS positioning via phone network of train locations whether signals in the rear are in a proceed aspect or not.
Allegedly |
No trackside signals at all it will be in cab signalling or authorities (sounds like ASW) with something like block points or Limit Of Authority for mid sections. Supposedly will do away with the need for track ciruits at all? They say that stuff like xings etc will be controlled by the system using the GPS to monitor trains location. |
I missed that bit my post. The earlier argument with In-Cab Signals was, I am led to believe, that the smaller operators using heritage type locomotives (47s, 44s, MKI 48s etc...) may not be in a position to equip their locomotives accordingly.
| nutbagg wrote: | | Question I have are -broken rail detection?, vehicles left in section unless every train has a EOT that can monitor the rear of the train?, what is the backup system when the mainframe crashes (it will) we go back to Train Order working? |
All valid points raised the first time round with no answers back then either.
| nutbagg wrote: | | Regarding the Next G roll out Telstra has been using alot of the exsisting radio towers to install the phone cells onto so maybe thats why we haven't seen many new towers. |
The NextG did indeed just replace the CDMA equipment. The original point was that towers were to be erected along the rail corridor to eliminate black spots i the network where the rail required a service and the community would also benefit, however this is yet to be fulfilled. |
These are obviously things to be answered but it has been suggested that ARTC will fund the installation of display units in the locos as they are the ones saving the money most operators couldn't care less about it as long as they don't pay for it.
Sorry i meant that ARTC is letting Telstra use the ARTC UHF radio towers that presently provide its average coverage to the rail network.
As for computer based systems the stories I have heard about ASW/SAS in Vic tell me that relying on computers for train control is not quite there yet. Maybe someone in NSW could tell us about their Train Order system which I believe is computer based.
As for naysayers the system will not give the network much more capacity it is not a substitute for more/ bigger crossing loops or realignments or rebuilding the track for heavier axle loads. It is management spin for spending money on some new toy. $90m would do alot for the Pt Pirie to Tarcoola section of the TAR/CAR, just imagine CTC and extra loops........... 
Mate, if that loco pulls as hard as you do, it'd move anything.
I'd still rather have an ALCo.
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perwaynut
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Sep 04, 2005
Last Visited: Aug 28, 2008
Location: In the Land of the Mighty Hawks, and our favourite footy President Jeff
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Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:18 pm
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I've been led to believe that ATMS will be a moving block system, so this will most definitely increase the capacity of the existing lines. And by removing a stack of lineside infrastructure this will save a stack load of maintenance costs.
This would be comparable to a Level 3 ETCS.
One of the big questions I think need to be answered is how it will work with the ETCS that is no doubt going to be installed in Sydney.
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nutbagg
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Feb 11, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 18, 2008
Location: In Willy Wonka's Chocolate Lake
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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:17 pm
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| perwaynut wrote: | I've been led to believe that ATMS will be a moving block system, so this will most definitely increase the capacity of the existing lines. And by removing a stack of lineside infrastructure this will save a stack load of maintenance costs.
This would be comparable to a Level 3 ETCS.
One of the big questions I think need to be answered is how it will work with the ETCS that is no doubt going to be installed in Sydney. |
Its only an ARTC project at this stage so thinking in terms of freight lines if you have loops about 20-30 km apart with intermediate signals at 10km intervals you aren't really going to get much more capacity as it only works for trains following each other it doesn't give you more crossing options. Obviously if you remove all the associated infrastructure other than the track you don't have to maintain it any more but my question is how do they detect broken rails when you have no track circuits?
Mate, if that loco pulls as hard as you do, it'd move anything.
I'd still rather have an ALCo.
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TE2815
Minister for Railways
Joined: Mar 19, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 27, 2008
Location: Under the newsdesk !
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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:03 pm
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| nutbagg wrote: | | <snip>......but my question is how do they detect broken rails when you have no track circuits? |
JUNEE CONTROL this is driver ST22 calling, we appear to be in the dirt at 120.150km - OVER;
DRIVER ST22 this is Junee Control message received
ETC...........  
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perwaynut
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Sep 04, 2005
Last Visited: Aug 28, 2008
Location: In the Land of the Mighty Hawks, and our favourite footy President Jeff
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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:20 pm
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lol....that is so funny.....yep hitting the dirt is one way to find broken rails....
i've got some signalling mates and one thing they tell me is that the signalling system's primary function is NOT to detect broken rails....
how many signle line sections are there out there without any track circuits.....
the best way to protect against broken rails is well tied and supported track.....not really on the track circuit to fail when the rail goes twang.....
anyway...that's my rant....and of course there is also this ultrasonic rail checking thingy that runs around the country side picking up rail defects before they get to be a broken rail.........
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ShowMeTheMoney
Banned
Joined: Jul 31, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 26, 2008
Location: Banned
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:47 am
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3G, GPS is no better detecting a broken rail compared to current and old style token systems for safeworking, so it's not a factor.
The old systems only have a short length of track circuiting, if any to controll local signals at each end of a section and some remote level crossings.
At least the 3G and GPS will remove some of the "human error" factor associated with train control on the primitive safeworking systems.
A broken rail rarely leads to a derailment.
Broken rails should be detected by drivers and reported when they hear them, but not all of them are as aware or care as others do.
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nutbagg
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Feb 11, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 18, 2008
Location: In Willy Wonka's Chocolate Lake
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:05 am
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The derailment of PS6 in the sandhills at Barton was alledgely caused by a broken rail. I think it was and maybe still roads like ROBE used simple circuits as a method of detection. Yes I understand its not the primary function on CTC but still an important side benefit. Going over one on a train at 110 may be to late for reporting if its a clean break.
Mate, if that loco pulls as hard as you do, it'd move anything.
I'd still rather have an ALCo.
Last edited by nutbagg on Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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cootanee
Train Controller
Joined: Apr 28, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
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TE2815
Minister for Railways
Joined: Mar 19, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 27, 2008
Location: Under the newsdesk !
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:01 pm
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Yes track circuiting primary function is not the detection of broken rails but the detection of trains to operate the automatic signalling correctly. The fact that a broken rail detects as though a train is there is pure coincidence.
 I just couldn't resist that earlier gagline
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