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BDA
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 17, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Sydney
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:36 pm
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Hi all , I'm curious to know how people think the traffic flow will go in NSW
once the Victorian NE BG is converted to SG approximately from Seymour to Wodonga . There is also talk of VLine loco hauled pass trains running up to Wagga .
I wonder if this will push further capacity upgrades north of the border to cope with higher train density if and when the cost component of road diesel becomes hard to swallow .
Assuming an inland route eventuates (maybe after the Great Divide sinks west of Brisbane) the number of services could grow markedly between Dynon/Totenham Loop and Cootamundra .
Any thoughts ?
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Bwana
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jul 21, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:16 pm
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I was thinking yesterday that it's really gonna make a big argument for double track 'twixt Junee and Albury. I doubt it is vital ATM, but removing time wasted crossing would make a huge impact on the popularity of freight by rail. It's also predominantly flat, straight land so it shouldn't be overly expensive.
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bevans
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 11, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:53 pm
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| BDA wrote: | Hi all , I'm curious to know how people think the traffic flow will go in NSW
once the Victorian NE BG is converted to SG approximately from Seymour to Wodonga . There is also talk of VLine loco hauled pass trains running up to Wagga . |
I am sure this is a possibility. I have heard that Vline may now bypass Wodonga completely (since wodonga doesn't want a service) and run through to Wagga.
| BDA wrote: | | I wonder if this will push further capacity upgrades north of the border to cope with higher train density if and when the cost component of road diesel becomes hard to swallow . |
This is not a matter of if but when. The idea of a traffic growth will be hard to realise since there is very little investment in rail in this country relative to other forms of freight transport. (meaning road and port) Australia has left a lot of this investment very very late. Even though fuel prices will rise, the real kicker for rail will be when the carbon trading scheme comes in with long distance road transport becoming even more economically unviable.
| BDA wrote: | Assuming an inland route eventuates (maybe after the Great Divide sinks west of Brisbane) the number of services could grow markedly between Dynon/Totenham Loop and Cootamundra .
Any thoughts ? |
I can forsee a time when half of Tottenham yard will be SG. This will be within the next 5 years.
Also, if Victoria can get SG into the eastern suburbs (perhaps this proposed rail tunnel should have an SG component) then we could see even more traffic on the northeast SG.
If freight rail traffic is to grow at an accelerated rate, then the highest rate of growth should be on the Melbourne and Sydney corridor because its share at the present time is so low.
Regards,
Brian
RP2 - Project Director
"Victoria, the home of world class project blowouts and overruns" Mr. Bachelor, hang your head in Shame!
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BDA
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 17, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Sydney
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:00 pm
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Yes I was thinking of that as well or at least rethinking the original length passing lanes that have not been started north of Albury . At least then there is less to have to lay later and the crossovers are in place for Bi Directional running .
I suppose it's a lot to hope that even minor curve easing north of Coota would take place in the foreseeable future but current infrastructure is sure gonna show up its limitations if the traffic density starts to spiral up .
Can you imagine slow grain trains trying to mix it with XPT's/stealies/superfreighters etc .
Another thing I'm curious to know is what limitations are there to double stack or Piggy Back (TOFC) trains between Melbournes Northern outskirts and Junee .
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bevans
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 11, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:03 pm
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| BDA wrote: | | Another thing I'm curious to know is what limitations are there to double stack or Piggy Back (TOFC) trains between Melbournes Northern outskirts and Junee . |
I am certain others on this forum could provide a better response to this, however, I think there are a number low bridges on the northeast (and some high ones also) which may prevent double stacking which is only usual for intermodal traffic anyhow.
Regards,
Brian
RP2 - Project Director
"Victoria, the home of world class project blowouts and overruns" Mr. Bachelor, hang your head in Shame!
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BDA
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 17, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Sydney
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:11 pm
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Hi Brian , yep so much potential for comparatively huge volumes of freight on rail between Sydney and Melbourne .
One can only hope people like Kev may be able to sell Australians on rail infrastructure building towards a slightly brighter future .
We can probably forget about "komrad Costa" and his fall guy Imafoola having any positive input .
Interesting times .
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bobcarey
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
Last Visited: Aug 13, 2008
Location: offrail
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:31 pm
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Paul Little last night on Lateline Business kept mentioning rail as the future means to take up more of the transport task, in regards to emission tradings effect, but he made no comment on increased funding to accomodate rail's greater task.Maybe a more astute commentator could have pressed him on how he expected the current infrastructure such as terminals would cope.
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574M
White Guru
Joined: Mar 15, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 30, 2008
Location: Shepparton
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:13 pm
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Its only going to get better for rail.
Aunty ABC
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/14/2302486.htm
| Aunty ABC wrote: |
"The freight sector has an increasingly important role to play and people are going to be increasingly looking at the carbon footprint of the products they buy," he said.
"It needs a plan to tackle the carbon intensity of the kilometres it injects into the transport of freight around Australia. It must reduce its emissions.
"It can look at increased efficiency of vehicles and operations, it can switch to lesser intensive, carbon intensive fuels."
The figures reveal air freight is the most emissions intensive, and rail produces the least amount of greenhouse gases. |
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bevans
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 11, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:40 pm
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| bobcarey wrote: | | Paul Little last night on Lateline Business kept mentioning rail as the future means to take up more of the transport task, in regards to emission tradings effect, but he made no comment on increased funding to accomodate rail's greater task.Maybe a more astute commentator could have pressed him on how he expected the current infrastructure such as terminals would cope. |
Paul Little? The guy who has systematically controlled a company which has reduced rail and port competition (thanks to the ACCC), who has scrapped rollingstock to ensure other operators cannot gain a hold, who has basically shutdown the Victorian rail freight network and has left tasmanian rail in a wasteland.
Regards,
Brian
RP2 - Project Director
"Victoria, the home of world class project blowouts and overruns" Mr. Bachelor, hang your head in Shame!
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coit
Locomotive Fireman
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Weston,NSW
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:51 pm
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Paul Little? The guy who has systematically controlled a company which has reduced rail and port competition (thanks to the ACCC), who has scrapped rollingstock to ensure other operators cannot gain a hold, who has basically shutdown the Victorian rail freight network and has left tasmanian rail in a wasteland.
Regards,
Brian[/quote]
Dont forget NZ.
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masspac
Locomotive Fireman
Joined: Apr 22, 2008
Last Visited: Nov 30, 2008
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:19 am
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| Bwana wrote: | | I was thinking yesterday that it's really gonna make a big argument for double track 'twixt Junee and Albury. I doubt it is vital ATM, but removing time wasted crossing would make a huge impact on the popularity of freight by rail. It's also predominantly flat, straight land so it shouldn't be overly expensive. |
I think it would take a huge increase in traffic for them to make it double line also you have the problem of the Wagga viaduct would have to be duplicated or have a single line section between Wagga and Bomen.
BDA
As for double stacking Between Melbourne Northern outskirts and Junee i don't think this is a possibility as you have the overbridge at Wagga near the Kapooka army base. As for in Victoria i am not sure what restrictions are down there.
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Tom66
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Sep 24, 2003
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Location: Melbourne
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:38 am
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masspac
I think it would take a huge increase in traffic for them to make it double line also you have the problem of the Wagga viaduct would have to be duplicated or have a single line section between Wagga and Bomen.
Im not possetive but I thought that the new viaduct at Wagga has piers for double track but only has a single track deck?
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cootanee
Train Controller
Joined: Apr 28, 2006
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awsgc24
Minister for Railways
Joined: Feb 18, 2003
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Location: Sydney, NSW
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:59 am
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| masspac wrote: |
I think it would take a huge increase in traffic for them to make it double line also you have the problem of the Wagga viaduct would have to be duplicated or have a single line section between Wagga and Bomen.
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There will never be any need for the Sydney-Melbourne line to be 100% double track. 95% would be fine particularly as the 80km/h turnouts at the end of double line are reasonably high speed (and could be higher at a price). Remember also that refuges at Cootamundra, Yass, Harden, etc. are on the main line, which reduces the main line to single track when trains are refuged.
| masspac wrote: |
As for double stacking between Melbourne Northern outskirts and Junee i don't think this is a possibility as you have the overbridge at Wagga near the Kapooka army base. As for in Victoria i am not sure what restrictions are down there. |
The single track Kapooka Olympic Highway overbridge is for road a nasty dogleg. Should this every be replaced with a smooth highspeed overbridge, the opportunity could be taken to improve clearances for double stacking, and also to allow for duplication of the tracks.
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BDA
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 17, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Sydney
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:30 am
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Yes that's very true , need more stables horses carts and a better course .
On the terminal capacity issue I have to wonder if some large customers would have their own dedicated yards and possibly even trains .
In a place like Sydney I doubt there would ever be room for a "North Platte" sized yard so a bit of decentralization may be the next best bet .
I think the future of interstate rail will be pushed by fuel pricing because the cost of living is every Joes greatest concern .
On the Political front if governments feel they can get some mileage from rail infrastructure spending then I'm all for it .
The reality check won't be the green aspect , it will be the consumer cost aspect IMO . I reckon if you look to the US model the main green aspect is the currency one .....
As for Wagga Viaduct , even if it can't support double lines it would be a simple task to build another next to it .
Height clearance's , where over bridges are would lowering the track level be a possibility ?
The reason I asked about Melbournes Northern outskirts is because I don't know the district and usually the greatest obstacles to double stacking clearances is tunnels , here in Sinn City operationally its often going to be the EMU's overhead wiring and stanchions .
If the powers that be are going to at least look seriously at double line SG and have a bit of flexibility with the routes then I think it should be taken in consideration if they hope to do the job successfully the first time .
It would be an expensive shame to have to redo things later - like I suppose the alignments up this end of the Sydney - Melb railway .
My cynical prediction is that they will decide the alignment is unacceptable the day that the last concrete sleeper is layed on the current one .
Lastly at Wagga , is it set up to handle terminating services like the ones VLine proposes to run withing blocking the corridor much ?
This is one place where those trains could throw a large spanniard in the works if it's handled badly .
More thoughts ?
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