Highpoint Line?

 
  Somebody in the WWW Banned

Location: Banned
The nearest stop on route 57 to Highpoint is a fair distance away and is a decent walk up a hill and through the carpark (very pedestrian unfriendly) if you want to get to the shops.

Trams are not suitable as a trunk service from middle suburbs to the CBD - for example, in this instance it takes 50 minutes from West Maribyrnong to the CBD.

Trams have their place for shorter, local trips (say Ascot Vale to Highpoint in this instance), while a heavy rail service would be more suitable for longer trips say from Maribyrnong or Avondale Heights to the CBD.

As I said several posts above, the main users of a heavy rail service would be locals - not shoppers. ZH836301 is on the money with his comment - better tram and bus services linking it to other areas (ie Western Suburbs) would bring in far more shoppers.


What's wrong with making the '82 a through running cervice to Melbourne CBD?
"dad2natalie"

And what exactly would the point of that be? Not everything needs to be centered around the CBD - and it would remove a major destination (Moonee Ponds) from that route, which exists purely for suburban trips.

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  wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
Wouldn't it make more sense to reroute the 82 tram though the shopping centre carpark right up the front door, with reserved track all the way, and a bus interchange to boot?
  Mel Deputy Commissioner

The 57 From Highpoint is not how you get to the city from there. You take the 82 to footscray then train. It saves you 25 minutes. The 57 takes nearly an hour from Highpoint to Elizabeth street.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

I mentioned route 57 to outrule the idea of re-routing route 82 to City.  The optimal way of taking route 82 to Footscray station to get a train to City still means there is no need to re-route route 82 to City.
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
The nearest stop on route 57 to Highpoint is a fair distance away and is a decent walk up a hill and through the carpark (very pedestrian unfriendly) if you want to get to the shops.
"Somebody in the WWW"


Yes, I have walked it. So what? Walking is healthy.


Trams are not suitable as a trunk service from middle suburbs to the CBD - for example, in this instance it takes 50 minutes from West Maribyrnong to the CBD.
"Somebody in the WWW"


Would you say that to someone who lives nearby the South Wantirna route?


Trams have their place for shorter, local trips (say Ascot Vale to Highpoint in this instance), while a heavy rail service would be more suitable for longer trips say from Maribyrnong or Avondale Heights to the CBD.
"Somebody in the WWW"


So you would have us all live off Chapel St and catch the train at East Richmond, South Yarra or Winsdor to get to the City?

What's wrong with making the '82 a through running cervice to Melbourne CBD?
"dad2natalie"


Nothing wrong with that idea, mick.
  Somebody in the WWW Banned

Location: Banned
Yes, I have walked it. So what? Walking is healthy.
"574M"

Not going to get people out of their cars with that attitude.

Would you say that to someone who lives nearby the South Wantirna route?
"574M"

Is that something you dreamed up?

So you would have us all live off Chapel St and catch the train at East Richmond, South Yarra or Winsdor to get to the City?
"574M"

What?
  Mickelaar The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: At the layout, tinkering.
Oscar, not everyone lives in Footscray, Maribyrnong or Moonee Ponds. Runnung the service to the CBD provides two good points A) People form the other side of Melbourne have the direct and quicker opportunity of visiting one of the biggest and best shopping malls in Victoria, whilst increasing service from the Mooney Ponds area to Melbourne CBD. For not much extra cost.

Not going to get people out of their cars with that attitude.
It will if petrol keeps going. better PT and higher fuel prices WILL get people out of the car.

FYI I leave the car at home and catch the train to the city (Geelong) solely because of high prices. I guarantee you that I am not the only one. And.... walking is healthy. Wink
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
I live in Brunswick and there are very few homemaker stores here.  I have to go to Highpoint or Northlands for such goods.  Both are hard to reach by public transport.  Highpoint is marginally easier - bus and #82 tram or two trains and #82 tram.  I quite like the #82 actually as it moves well in some of its sections.  I do not like the Maribyrnong Road part as traffic does not like stopping to let people on/off the tram.
"Edith"

When you say it moves quite well, does that mean it's comparable with car travel, or just faster than on-street trams? I'm thinking of marketable opportunities here...

To get to the City from Maribyrnong by PT is a slow process on the #57 tram.  It might be quicker by #82 and train from Footscray.  If we add a lot of new residents to the mix we need to get the PT right before we clog up the roads with cars.
"Edith"

Are the slow sections two lanes or three? It should be acceptable to put caterpillar barriers downto give the trams a free run if there's three lanes, but reducing from two lanes to one is a bit difficult (politically, not physically!).

In this area we have two significant Activity Centres and they are quite different in there PT access - Footscray Station and Highpoint.  I really hate buses and it is interesting to see how infrequent the ones at Highpoint are.  Sure they have lot of choice of destinations, but they are not very frequent.  A bit like Northland and Chadstone, too.
"Edith"

True - although Chaddy has so many routes from Oakleigh that they combine to make a reasonably passable service.

What we really need of course is the GoZones they have in Adelaide - where a whole lot of bus routes have their timetables coordinated so there's a high frequency clockfaced service over the sections they all cover, but it doesn't cost them any extra money because each route is still running at the same frequency.
  Bobman Locomotive Fireman

That's what I thought. You will never get a rail link built where there is an existing PT link via trams.
574M


What was the justification for the 109 tram extension, if Box Hill was already served well by the Lilydale/Belgrave lines?
  Riccardo Minister for Railways

Location: Gone. Don't bother PMing here.
True - although Chaddy has so many routes from Oakleigh that they combine to make a reasonably passable service.

What we really need of course is the GoZones they have in Adelaide - where a whole lot of bus routes have their timetables coordinated so there's a high frequency clockfaced service over the sections they all cover, but it doesn't cost them any extra money because each route is still running at the same frequency.
"mjja"


And what is actually on the ground? (time for meej to check Riccardo's blog for some training tracks)

There's a small sign indicating which buses go to Chaddy, but no other PID to suggest how to get there, the frequency, when the services start and stop and where to wait for the buses. there is the so-called Smart Bus electronic timetabling but this gives the misleading impression that these services are better than the others, when they aren't.

Standing at FSS, there is no indication how to get to Chadstone.

rather than a simple map like so



FSS==============Oak============Dandy
..................................... ...............................
.....................................Chaddy...............................
  wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
That's what I thought. You will never get a rail link built where there is an existing PT link via trams.
"574M"

What was the justification for the 109 tram extension, if Box Hill was already served well by the Lilydale/Belgrave lines?
"Bobman"

Servicing people who live in Kew? Trying to capture traffic at the other end of the line, rather than trams being full in the city and empty in the suburbs?
  Edith Chief Commissioner

Location: Line 1 from Porte de Vincennes bound for Bastille station
I live in Brunswick and there are very few homemaker stores here.  I have to go to Highpoint or Northlands for such goods.  Both are hard to reach by public transport.  Highpoint is marginally easier - bus and #82 tram or two trains and #82 tram.  I quite like the #82 actually as it moves well in some of its sections.  I do not like the Maribyrnong Road part as traffic does not like stopping to let people on/off the tram.
"Edith"

When you say it moves quite well, does that mean it's comparable with car travel, or just faster than on-street trams? I'm thinking of marketable opportunities here...
"mjja"


It is as fast as a car in many sections, although it does have to stop sometimes.  It tends to get caught in traffic close to the Footscray end.


To get to the City from Maribyrnong by PT is a slow process on the #57 tram.  It might be quicker by #82 and train from Footscray.  If we add a lot of new residents to the mix we need to get the PT right before we clog up the roads with cars.
"Edith"

Are the slow sections two lanes or three? It should be acceptable to put caterpillar barriers downto give the trams a free run if there's three lanes, but reducing from two lanes to one is a bit difficult (politically, not physically!).
"mjja"


Slow sections are mainly around shopping centres with cars moving into and out of parking spaces.  Mostly it is about the length of the journey by #57.  Train from Footscray is much faster and the #82 is mostly quick.

In this area we have two significant Activity Centres and they are quite different in there PT access - Footscray Station and Highpoint.  I really hate buses and it is interesting to see how infrequent the ones at Highpoint are.  Sure they have lot of choice of destinations, but they are not very frequent.  A bit like Northland and Chadstone, too.
"Edith"

True - although Chaddy has so many routes from Oakleigh that they combine to make a reasonably passable service.

What we really need of course is the GoZones they have in Adelaide - where a whole lot of bus routes have their timetables coordinated so there's a high frequency clockfaced service over the sections they all cover, but it doesn't cost them any extra money because each route is still running at the same frequency.
"mjja"


I agree that Chaddy has many routes, but it does depend on whether you want to take a direct bus or change to a train somewhere.  GoZones are a good idea.
  Somebody in the WWW Banned

Location: Banned
What we really need of course is the GoZones they have in Adelaide - where a whole lot of bus routes have their timetables coordinated so there's a high frequency clockfaced service over the sections they all cover, but it doesn't cost them any extra money because each route is still running at the same frequency.
"mjja"

It's usually just two routes with an overlapping section which have a 30min off-peak/60min night/weekend service which combine to provide a 15min weekday/30min night/weekend frequency in the section where they duplicate eachother.

Most are routes on main roads out of the CBD into the inner suburbs, for where Melbourne generally has trams.

I wouldn't consider a bus once every 30 minutes on weekends to be a "high frequency" service.


[quote="http://www.adelaidemetro.com.au/routes/gozones.html"]A: A Go Zone is not a route but a zone that offers convenient services every 15 minutes between 7.30 am and 6.30pm Monday to Friday and every 30 minutes at night, Saturday, Sunday and public holidays. This service is delivered by a variety of different routes, which are displayed at each stop so you know which bus to hail.[/quote]
  MelbourneCity Chief Commissioner

Oscar, not everyone lives in Footscray, Maribyrnong or Moonee Ponds. Runnung the service to the CBD provides two good points A) People form the other side of Melbourne have the direct and quicker opportunity of visiting one of the biggest and best shopping malls in Victoria, whilst increasing service from the Mooney Ponds area to Melbourne CBD. For not much extra cost.
"dad2natalie"


Yes but, people on the "other side" of the city have access to the same shops much closer - they're not going to go the extra distance for something they can go more or less locally.
Chadstone, Highpoint, Southland, Northland, Eastland, Knox City, Dandenong, Doncaster, Fountain Gate etc all have the same shops selling exactly the same things at the same price.

The only one that people will travel to is Chadstone as it has some "upmarket" designer stores... but soon Doncaster will have them + a few more.
  Somebody in the WWW Banned

Location: Banned
not everyone lives in Footscray, Maribyrnong or Moonee Ponds
"dad2natalie"

Mick, is the 82 tram the sole public transport link to Highpoint? No? It exists for those such suburban trips, while numerous bus routes and the 57 tram provide for other journeys

People form the other side of Melbourne have the direct and quicker opportunity of visiting one of the biggest and best shopping malls in Victoria
"dad2natalie"

Train to Footscray > 82 tram. Otherwise, has the 57 from the CBD to West Maribyrnong ceased operating since I last checked?

whilst increasing service from the Mooney Ponds area to Melbourne CBD.
"dad2natalie"

Is the 8-minute frequency on route 59 not enough?

For not much extra cost.
"dad2natalie"

Running a new service from Moonee Ponds to the Melbourne CBD (which would take 30mins roughly) at a reasonable frequency would obviously cost a significant amount in addition to the present cost of running the Footscray - Moonee Ponds service - factor in the following costs:

- extra trams required to operate it
- extra staff required to drive these services, and to maintain the extra trams.
- extra wear and tear on rollingstock and track.
- an upgrade of the Elizabeth Street terminus, which is already congested in peak.

All for what?

Lose the CBD-centric obsession Idea

Yes but, people on the "other side" of the city have access to the same shops much closer - they're not going to go the extra distance for something they can go more or less locally.
"MelbourneCity"

Good point - I doubt there's a rush of people going from say, Caulfield to Highpoint.
  Mickelaar The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: At the layout, tinkering.
Mick, is the 82 tram the sole public transport link to Highpoint? No? It exists for those such suburban trips, while numerous bus routes and the 57 tram provide for other journeys
"somebody.."
It doesn;t matter what it's for. It's more a matter of what can it do.
Train to Footscray > 82 tram. Otherwise, has the 57 from the CBD to West Maribyrnong ceased operating since I last checked?
"somebody.."
Then route it up maribyrnong road. Pointelss. Extend the 82. The whole point is to eliminate multiple modes of transport. It puts the common at a point where they wont want to catch PT. You are thinking like a foamer, not norma community member.
Is the 8-minute frequency on route 59 not enough?
"somebody.."
At times... no.
Running a new service from Moonee Ponds to the Melbourne CBD (which would take 30mins roughly) at a reasonable frequency would obviously cost a significant amount in addition to the present cost of running the Footscray - Moonee Ponds service - factor in the following costs:

- extra trams required to operate it
- extra staff required to drive these services, and to maintain the extra trams.
- extra wear and tear on rollingstock and track.
- an upgrade of the Elizabeth Street terminus, which is already congested in peak.

All for what?

Lose the CBD-centric obsession Idea
"somebody.."
I think you may be looking into it a bit too much. Wear & tear would be minimal. Upgrade of the terminus, I doubt that would be needed. Especially if the frequency is not as high.[/quote]Think outside the square Oscar. Not everyone is a foamer and wants to travel all over Melbourne. Get there easily, and get there as quick as possible is human.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Then route it up maribyrnong road. Pointelss. Extend the 82. The whole point is to eliminate multiple modes of transport. It puts the common at a point where they wont want to catch PT. You are thinking like a foamer, not norma community member.
"dad2natalie"

Are you trying to insinuate that the public are too stupid to read a timetable?

Because if you extend the tram, they'll read it, then continue to change to the faster train at Footscray.

...get there as quick as possible
"dad2natalie"

Irony?
  route14 Chief Commissioner

If you are too lazy to transfer between different modes of transport, catch route 57.  If you want to get to City quick, take route 82 to Footscray and change to a train.
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
Here's my (eastern suburbs boy's) point of view after a study of the Melway and Google Earth.

Route 82 is weird in that it covers track run by 57 but it runs "backwards". It would be more logical to split it, with 82 terminating at West Maribyrnong (thus becoming a fairly quick way of getting from Footscray station to Highpoint).

The problem is that there's then a section of road not covered. My initial idea was to have 57 run to Moonee Ponds and have a shuttle service along Maribyrnong Road, but I don't think that's a very good use of resources. To be worthwhile that shuttle would need to be extended to some trip generator - maybe the zoo? That would duplicate the Route 504 bus which I've heard is a fairly good service, so maybe that's not such a good idea either.

I'm here, shoot away!
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
That really slaughters Moonee Ponds - Maribyrnong/Highpoint connectivity.
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
True, and Moonee Ponds is a fairly big transport hub so it really wants connectivity. Thinks again...
  Batman1988 Junior Train Controller

Location: Wayne Tower railway station, Gotham City
Being a resident at the nearby Student Village, I am strongly in favour of a Highpoint linve via Showgrounds (a line which is part of my proposed network map, coming shortly!) Apart from shoppers and retail workers, the real beneficiaries of this line would be the students at the Villiage who currently use Footscray to travel to the City King and City Flinders campuses of Victoria University (of which there are quite a few). The station would be just a simple, 5-minute walk away. A trip that required a hour for train travel and tram/bus connections would now be as little as ten to fifteen minutes, all told.

Add in another station at Maidstone's Edgewater estate (there's a nice big red brick building near the entrance on Gordon Street which would make for a great station facility, let's go get it!), and you have a new line servicing a large catchment, as well as relieving pressure on Footscray station. The line would have to go further, of course. Keilor perhaps?
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Ten minutes from an hour?  Yeah, sure.

Good luck trying to get a line into Maribyrnong from the racecourse.
  Batman1988 Junior Train Controller

Location: Wayne Tower railway station, Gotham City
Could you perhaps add some more detailed reasoning behind that conclusion? What would be required? Reconfiguring of the tracks at Showgrounds (the route I would take)? New signalling? Of course, the new infrastructure to run the line to Highpoint would be needed, but would a tunnel under the Maribyrnong River the olny solution?
  Edith Chief Commissioner

Location: Line 1 from Porte de Vincennes bound for Bastille station
I would have thought that it would be possible to put a bridge over the river (eg same height as the one from South Kensington to Footscray), then tunnel straight into the bank on the West side.  The bank is fairly high and can then stay underground under Highpoint to where ever you want to go.

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