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TheLoadedDog
El Sombrero!
Joined: Jun 19, 2003
Last Visited: Sep 28, 2008
Location: Macquarie Fields NSW
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:36 am
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Croydon gets what is possibly more than its fair share of limited stops trains, given that it's right between two bigger stations that these trains tend to stop at, and so if this limits the catchment area to relatively close to the station (excluding people who can walk to Ashfield or Burwood), then you'd ask why it should trump somewhere like, say, Petersham.
A friend of mine has heard a conspiracy theory that it is to do with the fact that the Presbyterian Ladies' College has a campus right there at the station (the fact that they wrecked a great pub is a rant for another time), and that they had strings pulled for a train service which could be called better than you might otherwise expect.
This is where I need you geeky types to help. As a kid in the 70s, I lived in Croydon, and mum would always take me to the city on an all stations train, or via taxi to Burwood and a faster train into town. The question is, did Croydon get to enjoy a limited stops service to the city in the old days, or is it relatively new?
Humphrey! We're leaving!
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Fred3801
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 25, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 29, 2008
Location: Inner West, Sydney
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:17 am
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| TheLoadedDog™™ wrote: |
The question is, did Croydon get to enjoy a limited stops service to the city in the old days, or is it relatively new? |
I would say it's a relatively new thing (give it 10+ years), particularly for peak trains. But I remember when I was younger some Campbo Expresses did stop at Croydon.
That's what I used to remember so Probably a question that needs some research into.
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Bwana
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jul 21, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:26 am
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I've got timetables back to '83 so I might have a look on the weekend, but I'd guess so - they generally only occur during peak, when a lot of all stoppers terminate at Ashfield, so Croydon has to be picked up by another train. PLC would have some bearing in school start/finish times, the same as Summer Hill gets a couple of extras for Newington.
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a6et
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:50 am
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In the 2 years I was at Central, from 76-78 then went bush. There were the following patterns.
All the Banko trains were all stations in the off peak & most in the peak. Thus stopping at Croydon, there was morning train that only went to Homebush & terminated with 4 cars stabling in the refuge there, & coupling up in the afternoon to go back to the Banko, via Lidcombe for the afternoon peak.
There were als services that terminated at Lidcomb & up the graveside terminal.
Morning & afternoon peak services had several some that stopped at Croydon & then to Liverpool via both Regants Park & Granville as well as a couple to the west, Generally Blacktown. These trains used $ 1 platform.
As there was no platform to serve the UP Suburban line, only those using the local could stop there.
There were also one or two that ran into the city on the Local that stopped at Croydon, Petersham, Newtown, Redfern & you no the rest.
There was one service that also stopped at Stanmore on the down suburban as well Croydon.
As an off shoot, when one considers how close each of the stations that are located on the local, & see how few people use the trains, especially the off peak, given reasonable services, what sort of patronage would they get if that line was converted to a metro or tram track as some suggest.
As such the patronage levels would be interesting to compare, along with the actual service levels they get. I would love to see those figures for the past 2 year or 5 years.
Hope this helps Ya ol Pup
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GrahamH
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Aug 04, 2007
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: At a terminal on the WWW.
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:36 am
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I saw a couple of dozen others get off the train when I also did recently early on a Saturday evening.
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Brianr
Train Controller
Joined: May 19, 2005
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Woodford, Blue Mountains
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Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:35 am
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| Bwana wrote: | | I've got timetables back to '83 so I might have a look on the weekend, but I'd guess so - they generally only occur during peak, when a lot of all stoppers terminate at Ashfield, so Croydon has to be picked up by another train. PLC would have some bearing in school start/finish times, the same as Summer Hill gets a couple of extras for Newington. |
Newington College is at Stanmore.
My '87 timetable shows a number of trains stopping at Croydon in the peak, some skipping Burwood coming from Hornsby.
I lived at North Strathfield until 1970 and seem to remember quite a few Hornsby trains stopping at Croydon in 50's and 60's.
Brian
Woodford, NSW
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Fred3801
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 25, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 29, 2008
Location: Inner West, Sydney
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Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:53 am
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| Brianr wrote: | | Bwana wrote: | | I've got timetables back to '83 so I might have a look on the weekend, but I'd guess so - they generally only occur during peak, when a lot of all stoppers terminate at Ashfield, so Croydon has to be picked up by another train. PLC would have some bearing in school start/finish times, the same as Summer Hill gets a couple of extras for Newington. |
Newington College is at Stanmore.
My '87 timetable shows a number of trains stopping at Croydon in the peak, some skipping Burwood coming from Hornsby.
I lived at North Strathfield until 1970 and seem to remember quite a few Hornsby trains stopping at Croydon in 50's and 60's. |
There also others schools along the inner west line which add up along the line (as most other rail lines would). This may of been different in the last 30 years or so, but if you connect the dots (starting at Burwood), you got a two schools there, PLC in croydon, around four more school at Ashfield, Christain Bros at Lewisham, I think there's one more at Stanmore (I remember sometimes seeing some millitary blokes around - scouts ?) as well as Newington, then more school kids at Newtown. That adds up to around 10+ school loads of students.
Then slap on top the regular peak commuters and also the Railcorp mob out of Petersham.
Full house..
Something I've also noticed this that in recent years, South Line trains have totally skipped Burwood. The streach of track between the city and Strathfield, you generally have around 6+ trains/ph. Two along the Inner West (going to either Banko or Livo), Two going to Campbelltown (skipping burwood), and Two that Terminate at Ashfield.
So I guess in a way, they have worked it out, being as you could get any of those trains and just connect at either end at Strathfield or Central (connections though is another story for another time).
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Bwana
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jul 21, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:00 am
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| Brianr wrote: | | Bwana wrote: | | PLC would have some bearing in school start/finish times, the same as Summer Hill gets a couple of extras for Newington. |
Newington College is at Stanmore. |
My bad. For "Newington", read "Trinity"
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a6et
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:28 am
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| Fred3801 wrote: | There also others schools along the inner west line which add up along the line (as most other rail lines would). This may of been different in the last 30 years or so, but if you connect the dots (starting at Burwood), you got a two schools there, PLC in croydon, around four more school at Ashfield, Christain Bros at Lewisham, I think there's one more at Stanmore (I remember sometimes seeing some millitary blokes around - scouts ?) as well as Newington, then more school kids at Newtown. That adds up to around 10+ school loads of students.
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No scouts!
Most private boys schools especially, used to have their own army cadet corps, as did a huge amount of publi high schools, until the later part of the Vietnam war years. So I would suggest you more than likely saw cadet uniforms.
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Brianr
Train Controller
Joined: May 19, 2005
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Woodford, Blue Mountains
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Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:29 am
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| Bwana wrote: | | Brianr wrote: | | Bwana wrote: | | PLC would have some bearing in school start/finish times, the same as Summer Hill gets a couple of extras for Newington. |
Newington College is at Stanmore. |
My bad. For "Newington", read "Trinity" |
I think most Trinity kids go to Ashfield, there is a bus route. In the 50's I lived at North Strathfield and went first to Summer Hill Opportunity School, then to Fort Street at Petersham so spent 7 years catching that wonderful school train in the afternoon that stopped all stations from City to Hornsby. I did some relief teaching at Fort Street a few years ago and a lot of students went down to Petersham station for the train but few if any would now go as far as the Hornsby line stations.
Brian
Woodford, NSW
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albert3801
Chief Commissioner
Joined: May 05, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 23, 2008
Location: Werrington, NSW
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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:57 pm
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| a6et wrote: | No scouts!
Most private boys schools especially, used to have their own army cadet corps, as did a huge amount of publi high schools, until the later part of the Vietnam war years. So I would suggest you more than likely saw cadet uniforms. |
Nothing has changed - most private boys schols (and some state high schools) still do have army cadets.
http://www.cadetnet.gov.au/Pages/Home.aspx
Back in the 70's it was common for trains to be provided to cater for some of the schools in the inner west. There was a western line train that stopped at Stanmore an Summer Hill on the down Suburban (for Newtington and Trinity) as well as express trains on the locals - stopping Central, Redern, Lewisham and all to Bankstown (to cater for Christian Brothers Lewisham and St Thomas' Catholic school). These services operated to arrive at their respective sations just before school starting time.
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a6et
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:07 pm
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Age can be a pain as it plays havoc with memory, thankfully some rethinking & visualisation helps.
I mistakeny mentioned that Croydon only had a platform on the local & Down Suburban. I now realise I was wrong & the platform was in fact Summer Hill.
As I reflect on this, I am pretty certain that there were trains that used the down Suburban line in the peak that did stop Redfern then Summer Hill & all stations, my gut tells me they were Liverpool trains but I can't be certain.
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21C123
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
Last Visited: Sep 6, 2008
Location: In the inspection pit checking the "bicycle chains"
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:43 am
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| Fred3801 wrote: | | TheLoadedDog™™™ wrote: |
The question is, did Croydon get to enjoy a limited stops service to the city in the old days, or is it relatively new? |
I would say it's a relatively new thing (give it 10+ years), particularly for peak trains. But I remember when I was younger some Campbo Expresses did stop at Croydon.
That's what I used to remember so Probably a question that needs some research into. |
Not at all a new thing. I have dug up the November 1960 suburban timetable and it shows a lot of services with various limited stopping patterns. Generally however these seem to be around start and finish times for schools. During the day, Croydon stoppers seemed to almost all be "all stations" affairs, so I assume TLD™ and his Mum were travelling in the "off peak"!
There are many and interesting variations in the stopping patterns, such as:
- train from Liverpool via Granville, stopping all stations to Summer Hill, except Rookwood, thence Redfern, Central etc;
- train from Liverpool via Granville, stopping all to Lidcombe, thence Strathfield, Croydon, Redfern, Central etc (i.e. NOT Burwood or Ashfield);
- train from Blacktown, stopping all stations to Strathfield, except Rookwood, thence Burwood, Ashfield, Redfern, Central etc (i.e. NOT Croydon);
- train from Hornsby stopping all stations to Strathfield, thence Croydon, Ashfield, Redfern, Central etc (i.e NOT Burwood, and a later similar service omitting Ashfield and Burwood, but still stopping at Croydon);
- limited stop train from Penrith: various stops, then Strathfield, Burwood, Croydon, Redfern, Central etc;
- even an all stations from Parramatta to Strathfield, except Rookwood, then Ashfield, Redfern, Central etc.
From this, it can be seen that all sorts of permutations existed. I think that many of them were arranged deliberately to spread the load of school children alighting or embarking at various stations, so that they were not all trying to travel on one train on each main line.
I don't know if it is still the same today, but back in the mid-1970's we had a very "cosmopolitan" (ecumenical??) mix of school uniforms on W227 to the Mountains: Sydney Grammar (and Prep) ex Sydney, Christian Brothers, St Thomas's, Newington, Trinity, PLC, MLC ex Strathfield (from Lewisham, Summer Hill, Ashfield, Croydon and Burwood) and James Ruse and King's ex Parramatta (from the good old (very old!) Harris Park buses ex Carlingford!!!).
As mentioned in other posts, some of this variety of stopping patterns certainly existed into the 1970's and was a sensible way of spreading the daily school loadings...
TimP
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TheLoadedDog
El Sombrero!
Joined: Jun 19, 2003
Last Visited: Sep 28, 2008
Location: Macquarie Fields NSW
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:47 am
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| 21C123 wrote: | | During the day, Croydon stoppers seemed to almost all be "all stations" affairs, so I assume TLD™™ and his Mum were travelling in the "off peak"! |
Well, I wasn't that hot at telling the time then, but my sister was already in "Big Skool", so as that would've started about nine and finished about three, and she didn't come with us, I reckon that off peak'd be a good guess.
Thanks to you and everybody else who has replied.
That stretch of line is special to me. Those rattler trips as a toddler are still in full living Technicolor in my head.
Humphrey! We're leaving!
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21C123
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
Last Visited: Sep 6, 2008
Location: In the inspection pit checking the "bicycle chains"
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:55 am
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| a6et wrote: | | As I reflect on this, I am pretty certain that there were trains that used the down Suburban line in the peak that did stop Redfern then Summer Hill & all stations, my gut tells me they were Liverpool trains but I can't be certain. |
The 1960 timetable mentioned above shows several Homebush terminators with a Central, Redfern, Summer Hill and all station pattern, as well as at least one service with that pattern continuing on to Liverpool via Granville.
I have just spotted another interesting variation, namely the 7.24am to Blacktown, which stopped at Redfern, Ashfield, thence all station except Rookwood. nothin unusual there, except that it commenced from Sydney terminal, not Central Electric. There would not have been many services on which you could validly leave Sydney Terminal with only a ticket to Ashfield, I think 
TimP
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