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Riccardo
Minister for Railways
Joined: Aug 20, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 28, 2008
Location: Elsewhere
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:04 pm
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don't get wound up about it, this VR75 guy is just plain wrong.
There is no route to Mildura from Geelong that is less than 500km and therefore it cannot be done in 4 hours at the speedlimit or below.
Maybe he has a faultly memory. A lot of people have 'tall tales' which they tell their friends and after a while they can't remember whether the tale was true or not.
If you need to get in touch, drop a comment at the Transport Textbook or on my blog.
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Somebody in the WWW
Comeng Gunzel
Joined: Oct 08, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
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Riccardo
Minister for Railways
Joined: Aug 20, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 28, 2008
Location: Elsewhere
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:20 pm
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Here is a typical Geelong to Mildura itinerary in whereis, via Ballarat which must be close to the bird's fly trajectory
*************************************
Trip Summary(View entire route)StartGeelong, VICVia1Ballarat Central, VICEndMildura, VICDistance: 545km Time: 6hr 45min (approx)
Travel: Car (with tolls)
Win a holiday to an eco retreat or Navman GPS unit
by offsetting some of your Co2 trip emissions!StartGeelong, VIC1.Continue on Yarra St, Geelong - head towards Little Ryrie StTravel 0.1km (13sec)2.Turn left at Ryrie St, GeelongTravel 0.9km (1min)3.Turn right at La Trobe Tce, NewtownTravel 1.3km (1min)4.Continue along Keera St, Geelong WestTravel 0.4km (25sec)5.Continue along Melbourne Rd, Geelong WestTravel 9m (1sec)6.Turn right at Church St, Geelong WestTravel 1km (1min)7.Continue along Ballarat Rd, Geelong WestTravel 5.7km (5min)8.Continue along Midland Hwy, BatesfordTravel 66.6km (44min)9.At the roundabout - take the 2nd exit onto Midland Hwy, BuninyongTravel 7.4km (5min)10.Continue along Albert St, SebastopolTravel 1.1km (1min)11.At the roundabout - take the 2nd exit onto Albert St, SebastopolTravel 1.5km (2min)12.At the roundabout - take the 2nd exit onto Albert St, SebastopolTravel 0.3km (19sec)13.At the roundabout - take the 2nd exit onto Skipton St, RedanTravel 2km (2min)14.Continue along Doveton St S, BallaratTravel 0.7km (49sec)15.Turn left at Sturt St, BallaratTravel 0.4km (34sec)16.Arrive at Sturt St, Ballarat, Continue on Sturt St, Ballarat - head towards Errard St STravel 0.1km (10sec)2.Turn right at Errard St, BallaratTravel 33m (6sec)3.Turn right at Sturt St, BallaratTravel 0.5km (44sec)4.Turn left at Doveton St N, BallaratTravel 0.5km (31sec)5.At the roundabout - take the 2nd exit onto Creswick Rd, BallaratTravel 3.4km (3min)6.At the roundabout - take the 2nd exit onto Creswick Rd, WendoureeTravel 0.5km (24sec)7.Continue along Western Fwy, WendoureeTravel 5.8km (4min)8.Continue along Sunraysia Hwy Exit, Mitchell ParkTravel 0.9km (43sec)9.Continue along Sunraysia Hwy, Mitchell ParkTravel 9.8km (8min)10.Continue along High St, LearmonthTravel 1.1km (2min)11.Continue along Sunraysia Hwy, LearmonthTravel 108.9km (1hr 24min)12.At the roundabout - take the 1st exit onto Sunraysia Hwy, St ArnaudTravel 34m (3sec)13.Continue along Kings Av, St ArnaudTravel 0.5km (46sec)14.Continue along Sunraysia Hwy, St ArnaudTravel 0.8km (1min)15.At the roundabout - take the 2nd exit onto Sunraysia Hwy, St ArnaudTravel 17.3km (14min)16.Continue along Jeffcott South School Bus Rte, SwanwaterTravel 2.2km (2min)17.Continue along Sunraysia Hwy, SwanwaterTravel 71.6km (55min)18.Bear left at Ramp, BirchipTravel 36m (3sec)19.Bear left at Sunraysia Hwy, BirchipTravel 118.6km (1hr 30min)20.Continue along Ramp, OuyenTravel 0.2km (7sec)21.Continue along Calder Hwy, OuyenTravel 108.3km (1hr 11min)22.At the roundabout - take the 2nd exit onto Calder Hwy, MilduraTravel 0.2km (8sec)23.Continue along Fifteenth St, MilduraTravel 0.4km (15sec)24.At the roundabout - take the 2nd exit onto Fifteenth St, MilduraTravel 0.6km (24sec)25.At the roundabout - take the 2nd exit onto Fifteenth St, MilduraTravel 1.3km (1min)26.At the roundabout - take the 3rd exit onto Deakin Av, MilduraTravel 1.5km (2min)27.Arrive at Deakin Av, Mildura
If you need to get in touch, drop a comment at the Transport Textbook or on my blog.
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luznug
Train Controller
Joined: Jan 22, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 28, 2008
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:43 pm
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| The Vinelander wrote: | | I hope this remnant of Colonialism has been restored. |
Howlong?
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luznug
Train Controller
Joined: Jan 22, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 28, 2008
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:17 pm
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| Somebody in the WWW wrote: | | BMTA511 wrote: | | Like many others have said a bus from swan hill will not cut it who wants to sit for hours on end on a crowded bus stopping all over the place when a direct train would be much more comfortable. |
"Stopping all over the place" - bit of an exaggeration, some of the stops are up to 50 minutes apart (total of 5 stops between them). |
The new 100 km, s of track to lay from Piangil to Ouyen is chicken feed when the money saved closing the old Mildura line sections between Lascelles to Maryborough and Geelong to Ballarat are added in.
ARTC own/lease the line from Hopetoun to Ouyen,
V/line the Ouyen to Mildura section.
All this could be very realistic if we had one gauge and Portland would be very happy to have access to the top of Victoria.
Piangil grain to Portland via Ouyen, Hopetoun Murtoa.
Keep up the good work “positive rail brother” but be sure when Australia becomes a republic all remnants of Colonialism will be destroyed.
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Somebody in the WWW
Comeng Gunzel
Joined: Oct 08, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:39 pm
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| luznug wrote: | | The new 100 km, s of track to lay from Piangil to Ouyen is chicken feed when the money saved closing the old Mildura line sections between Lascelles to Maryborough and Geelong to Ballarat are added in. |
And then what are you going to do if you want to incorporate Mildura as a part of the stanard gauge rail freight network?
Let's not forget the freight "curfews" on the line via Kyneton/Bendigo, most of which is laid in BG concrete sleepers between Sydenham and Bendigo, and the line north of Kyneton which has been single track since 2005 (  )
" The trains at Pennant Hills run roughly every half hour. Nobody in their right mind uses a service that shoddy. That so many do just proves how many dumb and/or desperate people there are in Sydney." - MrPC
Transport Textbook - My photos at RailPictures.Net |
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NottaGunzel
Banned
Joined: Jul 05, 2007
Last Visited: Nov 12, 2008
Location: Banned
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TheRev
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jan 30, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 30, 2008
Location: On the phone.
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:20 pm
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| luznug wrote: | | Somebody in the WWW wrote: | | BMTA511 wrote: | | Like many others have said a bus from swan hill will not cut it who wants to sit for hours on end on a crowded bus stopping all over the place when a direct train would be much more comfortable. |
"Stopping all over the place" - bit of an exaggeration, some of the stops are up to 50 minutes apart (total of 5 stops between them). |
The new 100 km, s of track to lay from Piangil to Ouyen is chicken feed when the money saved closing the old Mildura line sections between Lascelles to Maryborough and Geelong to Ballarat are added in. |
Chicken feed?
There would also be a fair bit of red tape to get through as well - environmental auditing for land impacts etc.; acquisition of land; finding the most practical route between point A and point B...Not forgetting you will also hit the Robinvale line at some point as well.
Also, why sever an existing route?
After spending the next five to six years wasting time and resources on studies and planning, the Maryborough to Mildura line will already be upgraded, killing the need for this pipedream put forward by a few gunzels.
| luznug wrote: | | ARTC own/lease the line from Hopetoun to Ouyen, |
There is no line existing between Hopetoun and Ouyen. There have been various proposals over the years, but they have come to nix.
| luznug wrote: | <snip>
All this could be very realistic if we had one gauge and Portland would be very happy to have access to the top of Victoria.
Piangil grain to Portland via Ouyen, Hopetoun Murtoa. |
What about the line from Maryborough to Ararat and then down to Maroona? Surely this would be far more realistic than going down to Murtoa via Hopetoun and backtracking it to Ararat. You would only have to build about one kilometre of track to make a direct link between the existing lines at Ararat.
| luznug wrote: | | Keep up the good work “positive rail brother” but be sure when Australia becomes a republic all remnants of Colonialism will be destroyed. |
I don't think too much will change. Australia is relatively independent as it is.
A bus is a glorified toaster on wheels.
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Chris Brownbill
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Nov 02, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 30, 2008
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:54 pm
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| Riccardo wrote: |
If you take the Rathdowny backroad into NSW you can see the border gate and guard house - I never knew it was there! |
I went through there maybe 15 years ago. It was actually manned and operating at the time too - so may still be.
I understand that it was/is operated as a cattle tick inspection post.
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luznug
Train Controller
Joined: Jan 22, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 28, 2008
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:16 pm
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| Somebody in the WWW wrote: | | luznug wrote: | | The new 100 km, s of track to lay from Piangil to Ouyen is chicken feed when the money saved closing the old Mildura line sections between Lascelles to Maryborough and Geelong to Ballarat are added in. |
And then what are you going to do if you want to incorporate Mildura as a part of the stanard gauge rail freight network?
Let's not forget the freight "curfews" on the line via Kyneton/Bendigo, most of which is laid in BG concrete sleepers between Sydenham and Bendigo, and the line north of Kyneton which has been single track since 2005 ( ) |
A new line is built from Hopetoun to Lascelles.
All Mildura freight runs via Murtoa, Ararat the plains or she has a multitude of Ports to choose, Darwin,Adelaide,Portland,Melbourne plus many many more.
It can also be incorporated into the Dooen (Horsham) freight.
I guess having Ararat to Geelong standard gauge would be a smart move either way.
The Ballarat service could continue on to Maryborough/Donald (Broad Gauge) or is that (standard gauge) while the Ararat runs to Geelong (standard gauge).
And we all know the Swan Hill Pass runs to Mildura now (standard gauge)
Now lets talk about the Mount Gambier to Albury Pass via
Benalla, Shepparton, Bendigo, Swan Hill, Mildura, Horsham, Ararat, Portland, Mt Gambier all at 20km’h in a DMU. (standard gauge)
But unnaturally we have 2 different rail gauges at Colonial, Bush Ranger Vic’s
…..so it’s all a pipe dream…..
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luznug
Train Controller
Joined: Jan 22, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 28, 2008
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TheRev
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jan 30, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 30, 2008
Location: On the phone.
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:37 am
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| luznug wrote: | | Somebody in the WWW wrote: | | luznug wrote: | | The new 100 km, s of track to lay from Piangil to Ouyen is chicken feed when the money saved closing the old Mildura line sections between Lascelles to Maryborough and Geelong to Ballarat are added in. |
And then what are you going to do if you want to incorporate Mildura as a part of the stanard gauge rail freight network?
Let's not forget the freight "curfews" on the line via Kyneton/Bendigo, most of which is laid in BG concrete sleepers between Sydenham and Bendigo, and the line north of Kyneton which has been single track since 2005 ( ) |
A new line is built from Hopetoun to Lascelles.
All Mildura freight runs via Murtoa, Ararat the plains or she has a multitude of Ports to choose, Darwin,Adelaide,Portland,Melbourne plus many many more. |
Firstly; what are you on, and can I have some please?
I pretty much answered this in my post which you seem to have ignored.
Why on earth would you bother to build a new line from Lascelles to Hopetoun (about 20 - 30 miles or so apart), when you can utilise existing infrastructure? We all know it's a government's job to pinch pennies and cut costs at every opportunity - and for once I am going to agree with them. Let's look at what we already have:
The line from Maryborough to Mildura:
This line is already undergoing major rehabilitation to a faaar better standard. The line from Geelong to Ballarat is complete, and the line from Ballarat to Maryborough is also nearing completion. I believe works are well underway past Maryborough as well.
Now.
The whole project is going to take two years going by publicity, with six months nearly complete now.
Why waste this money when you will simply close the line between Lascelles and Maryborough; presumably pulling it up as well?
The answer is simple. There will never be a line from Lascelles to Hopetoun.
The next part of our existing infrastructure is the Maryborough to Ararat railway, which is currently booked out and baulked at either end.
This railway is about 108km long, and would recquire pretty much the same treatment as the Mildura line to get it up to scratch. Heavy works occured on this line in the 1980's where all trestle bridges were replaced with either concrete bridges or ArmCo culverts, so G class locos could operate at 80km/h in the section.
Going by the progress that is being made on the Mildura line, it would take roughly six months or less to achieve the same 80km/h standard on this corridor.
Now comes the clincher:
Governments being cheap-skates and all; it would cost far more to build the line from Lascelles to Hopetoun - but that's not all. You would most certainly have to do environmental impact audits (red tape...) as the line would pass through possibly two National Parks. Not forgetting you will also have to upgrade the line from Hopetoun to Murtoa, which is about 100km give or take.
Okay.
It is cheaper to upgrade the line from Maryborough to Ararat as pretty much everything is there (perway, civil engineering and of course the track itself), plus at the other end to get a continual flow of traffic you would only need to construct about 1 - 2km of track to make a direct link from the Ararat - Maryborough line to the Ararat - Maroona line. By far the cheaper option.
| luznug wrote: | The existing line to Mildura via Ballarat.
It can also be incorporated into the Dooen (Horsham) freight.
I guess having Ararat to Geelong standard gauge would be a smart move either way. |
How so?
Instead of making everything of uniform gauge, you are simply complicating things further.
The way I see it, the line from Gheringhap to Mildura line will eventually be converted to standard gauge when a Government can finally get it's act together. There is also a very serious proposal for a link between Yelta and Broken Hill - this is most certainly standard gauge! There is already talk (how much of it is true, I don't know) that the line from Ouyen to Pinnaroo is ear-marked for gauge conversion for mineral sands traffic.
You also have the line from Seymour to Albury getting converted to standard gauge towards the end of the year. Why am I mentioning this?
Simple.
V/Line are converting three or so N class locomotives and 15 N cars to standard gauge for the Albury pass. It has always been a belief of mine that the line from Ballarat to Ararat will one day be converted to standard gauge, and with V/Line making the jump it certainly sets a presedence for the Ararat pass to operate via the Geelong line (about 20 minutes extra). The main trunk from Ballarat to Melbourne remaining as BG RFR.
So everything beyond Ballarat passenger and freight service-wise would be on standard gauge operating via North Shore (Geelong). This would certainly be desirable as the network would be reletively uniform again - if it were to ever happen...
| luznug wrote: | | The Ballarat service could continue on to Maryborough/Donald (Broad Gauge) or is that (standard gauge) while the Ararat runs to Geelong (standard gauge). |
Read what I have written above and get back to me.
| luznug wrote: | | And we all know the Swan Hill Pass runs to Mildura now (standard gauge) |
Huh?
Something you may have missed earlier...RFR lines will most likely never be converted to standard gauge. This includes the direct Ballarat, Bendigo and Traralgon routes. Geelong is excluded as standard gauge already exists adjecent.
| luznug wrote: | Now lets talk about the Mount Gambier to Albury Pass via
Benalla, Shepparton, Bendigo, Swan Hill, Mildura, Horsham, Ararat, Portland, Mt Gambier all at 20km’h in a DMU. (standard gauge) |
I reckon you should take up building routes on MSTS. It's about the only chance you will ever get to see the above in this lifetime, sadly.
| luznug wrote: | But unnaturally we have 2 different rail gauges at Colonial, Bush Ranger Vic’s
…..so it’s all a pipe dream….. |
I reckon! Going by what you are talking about, it always will be as it isn't a realistic proposition.
A bus is a glorified toaster on wheels.
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luznug
Train Controller
Joined: Jan 22, 2005
Last Visited: Nov 28, 2008
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:26 am
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If the line was built via Hopeton it would benefit Portland instantly, Adelaide would be closer and it would be SG
The Government needs to spend infrastructure dollars that bring down grocery prices(not BG). This is what Rudd came to Power with. And this line could do that.
Brumby can keep the Pass services separate by retaining the Broad Gauge and investing in pass services in the triangle of Ararat Maryborough Geelong. Over night service to Mildura along the plains too.
If what the Freight Rail Operators Group Rail Network Capability and Projects 2007 – 2014 wrote comes true.
Then we will have an Adelaide bypass , Bunbury street tunnell fixed and then double stack from the port of Melb to Perth (Double stack from the Port of Melb to Dynon is not long off)
The Western line will be the main artery for the Warnambool, Portland, Mt Gambier and Mildura lines. (rebuild the Warnambool line from Hamilton SG).
By then the Western line would probably be double line
and all those broad gauge pass lines would be 160kmh.
I don’t know why you sledge any new rail lines being built when a 6-lane freeway with 24hr exhaust brakes has scared the Mullum Mullum Valley!!!!!!!!
I think building new freight lines in Country Vic wont be too hard.
Also this from the Australian Rail Summit 2008
$1 million towards an Adelaide rail freight movements study, part of which will look at re-routing the main freight rail line north of the Adelaide Hills;
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dalts 1985
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jul 29, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 30, 2008
Location: Warrnambool by the sea on the Shipwreck Coast of Victoria
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:00 am
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Pass the Valium please...
"A vote for Labor means no more of Howard's bullsh*t |
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TheRev
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jan 30, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 30, 2008
Location: On the phone.
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:15 am
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| luznug wrote: | | If the line was built via Hopeton it would benefit Portland instantly, Adelaide would be closer and it would be SG |
Wha...?
So you're telling me that by using existing infrastructure, ie: the Mildura to Maryborough, Maryborough to Ararat then built 1 - 2km of track linking the Maryborough to Ararat line to the Ararat to Maroona line, it wouldn't benefit the Portland or Mt Gambier (if and when it ever re-opens)?
Think about it: tax dollars will be saved as 99% of the infrastructure already exists! Why build a new railway when it's not really needed, the existing infrastructure will benefit other lines (Portland for example), be an asset and you can save a bucket of money to spend elsewhere on the system where it's needed at the same time?
How will Adelaide be closer?
| luznug wrote: | | The Government needs to spend infrastructure dollars that bring down grocery prices(not BG). This is what Rudd came to Power with. And this line could do that. |
What about fuel prices? It's a lot cheaper to cart fuel by rail than road. You don't have the extra taxes that trucking companies have to pay, making it cheaper for the consumer at the other end...
| luznug wrote: | | Brumby can keep the Pass services separate by retaining the Broad Gauge and investing in pass services in the triangle of Ararat Maryborough Geelong. Over night service to Mildura along the plains too. |
Now we're getting a bit ridiculous.
Triangle? Are you referring to the Ballarat - Maryborough; Maryborough - Ararat; Ararat - Ballarat triangle? Little bit of a problem there; the line from Maryborough to Ararat is currently standard gauge. I don't think the government is so stupid as to convert it back to broad gauge again!
Overnight service via the plains to Mildura? I hope you're not talking about sending a passenger train via the Cressy line to Ararat and then up to Mildura...You've just added another 100 - 200km onto an already long journey if that's what you mean. I am sure the passengers would thank you for this bright idea and making their travelling time an extra couple of hours longer.
| luznug wrote: | If what the Freight Rail Operators Group Rail Network Capability and Projects 2007 – 2014 wrote comes true.
Then we will have an Adelaide bypass , Bunbury street tunnell fixed and then double stack from the port of Melb to Perth (Double stack from the Port of Melb to Dynon is not long off) |
You're actually the first person I know of that has said double stack containers aren't far off operating from the Port of Melbourne (which one?) and Dynon.
What I would like to know is how much longer it would take to stack these containers onto wagons, only to tow them about 2km (if you are referring to Appleton for example). It would make far more sense if trains arrived in Melbourne from Adelaide, Perth or wherever double stacked rather than extra stacking for a short shunt as you seem to be suggesting.
Double track to Perth? You're dreaming. If it ever did happen, it wouldn't be in my lifetime or yours. The 'Y' Link at the former site of Tottenham 'B' box will become a reality. I think works may have already starting in some rudimentry form.
By "fixing" Bunbury Tunnel; what exactly do you mean? I didn't know there was anything really wrong with it. Is there an existing plan to lower the depth? You certainly can't raise it, as there isn't much between the tunnel roof and the road which runs on top of it.
| luznug wrote: | | The Western line will be the main artery for the Warnambool, Portland, Mt Gambier and Mildura lines. (rebuild the Warnambool line from Hamilton SG). |
Dear God. You really are in "La-La Land" aren't you.
The Hamilton to Koroit line will never re-open. I can hardly see taking standard gauge to Warrnambool as being a realistic proposition either. Aside the fact that the perway is built to light lines standard - you would seriously have to beef up the civil engineering to even get the line to any sort of modern standard. In one, you would be building a railway from scratch pretty much and spending a lot of money which would return very little.
I am afraid the government will always view the railway to Mildura as running from Ballarat upwards. Whether it goes via the straight line or via Gheringhap doesn't really matter. The eventual plan is for the Mildura corridor to become standard gauge. Every single sealed level crossing is being upgraded with dual gauge concrete sleepered track panels from Ballarat onwards - this is part of the current upgrade. There has to be some future in the line becoming standard gauge. Why would they bother otherwise? The current study to extend the line from Yelta through to Broken Hill would also suggest this will happen if it ever gets wings.
| luznug wrote: | By then the Western line would probably be double line
and all those broad gauge pass lines would be 160kmh. |
The Western line will never be double track as traffic simply doesn't warrant it.
The main arterial lines to Melbourne are 160km/h. I don't see routes such as Swan Hill; Bairnsdale; Ararat; Maryborough (when it happens) or Warrnambool ever becoming capable of 160km/h in the present climate as there is not the population density to support spending the money on such infrastructure.
| luznug wrote: | I don’t know why you sledge any new rail lines being built when a 6-lane freeway with 24hr exhaust brakes has scared the Mullum Mullum Valley!!!!!!!!
I think building new freight lines in Country Vic wont be too hard. |
I'm not sledging building new railway lines; I am merely sledging your ill-though out, half baked ideas.
If there was ever an actual need to build a new railway (for example Yelta to Broken Hill), then yes, I am fully supportive of it. If it's building a line to compete with already existing infrastructure which is totally capable of meeting the same needs as the proposed line, then I am against it.
| luznug wrote: | Also this from the Australian Rail Summit 2008
$1 million towards an Adelaide rail freight movements study, part of which will look at re-routing the main freight rail line north of the Adelaide Hills; |
Heard that, and I'll believe it if and when it ever happens.
A bus is a glorified toaster on wheels.
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