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Comeng Gunzel
Joined: Oct 08, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
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Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:09 pm
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As anybody who has ever had to travel by train down there knows, rail services south of Macarthur are infrequent with one 2-car Endeavour every couple of hours to Moss Vale and even less continuing south of there. They are also admittedly rather slow - for example, I know someone who drives from Goulburn to Liverpool regularily in around 90 minutes, while in 90 minutes, the Endeavour would be between Yerrinbool and Bargo, or if they caught the bus/train combo leaving at 1:15pm, they'd be sitting on a train awaiting departure at Moss Vale.
Services south of Moss Vale consist of a small handfull of CityRail Endeavours to Goulburn, two CountryLink Xplorers to Canberra & two XPTs each day to the Riverina continuing to Melbourne.
The corridor from Macarthur to Goulburn is 168.3km long, or only 89km to Moss Vale. Over that line, populations are:
Wollondilly Shire - 40,344 (Menangle Park to Bargo)
Wingecarribee Shire - 40,636 (Yerrinbool to Wingello)
Goulburn Mulwaree Council - 27,112 (Tallong, Marulan, Goulburn)
& some old rail patronage statistics from a post
| Cset wrote: | Campbelltown - Goulburn = 1,380 trips/day
Moss Vale - Goulburn = 190 trips/day. |
The line covers a long area and obviously the needs of a service to places at each far end are different. Places in Wollondilly Shire are essentially dormitory suburbs to Western Sydney with plenty of people working in the Campbelltown areas and some people commuting to the CBD even while patronage from the southern end fluctuates more as most/all patronage is not commuting to work and is generally people going to Sydney for a longer period or a day trip.
In the previous Electrification to Goulburn - Meh, just get that done with? thread some of the proposals were to electrify only part-way to somewhere like Picton. What would be the benefit of that? Wollondilly Shire would get a better service but what would happen to the rest? Picton-Tahmoor-Bargo is one conurbation of towns (like Mittagong-Bowral-Moss Vale) & it would be strange to provide a significantly better rail service to one of them. For that distance, you could just extend some Macarthur trains and use a G/H set for it.
The other idea which has been floated here before is to extend the overhead to Moss Vale or Goulburn. What is the real benefit in that? "Electrification" only means that trains use electric over diesel traction, not that it instantly makes them faster, better or more frequent. There's no freight to benefit on this line and little benefits to a passenger that cannot be acheived with diesel trains. Not to mention the issue of ARTC & double stacking.
As it is a major freight route, could a solution to the passenger services be combined with improvements to the route for freight? Was something like a Mittagong to Douglas Park diversion following the M5 floated before IIRC? Could a new, more direct route benefit both passenger services and freight? For instance you could run local trains along the old alignment (or at least part of it) to service the Wollondilly Shire towns, while trains from Goulburn could run a more frequent service along the "new" route, to provide a service at least comparable to road travel time.
Canberra is only 50 minutes past the CityRail terminus at Goulburn by road. Could you consider it to be an extension of this corridor? We have had discussions before about a VFT from Sydney to Canberra. A new alignment could provide for that. Would another option for serving the Southern Highlands towns be a high-speed train to Canberra which could pick up passengers at the major stations like Goulburn, Mossy, Bowral & Mittagong instead of the above idea?
At very minimum, patronage on the current route could be improved by providing a more frequent service than the current offering, which would possibly require more Endeavour sets. I would guess that poor cost recovery would be one reason why the service level is as it is.
I'm open on all of this  , which is why I made this thread to discuss ideas 
" The trains at Pennant Hills run roughly every half hour. Nobody in their right mind uses a service that shoddy. That so many do just proves how many dumb and/or desperate people there are in Sydney." - MrPC
Transport Textbook - My photos at RailPictures.Net |
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Riccardo
Minister for Railways
Joined: Aug 20, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 28, 2008
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Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:09 pm
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But for the slow alignment, it is suitable distance for normal commuter services.
Diesel is fine, as Vline has shown. But paths need to be through to Sydney (and not because I fetish single seat journeys, but because the connecting electric trains are inevitably slow and crowded).
Canberra needs a high speed train.
If you need to get in touch, drop a comment at the Transport Textbook or on my blog.
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tonyp
Train Controller
Joined: Dec 20, 2007
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Sydney
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Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:55 pm
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| Riccardo wrote: |
Diesel is fine, as Vline has shown. . |
For a passenger, diesel (multiple unit) is never as good as electric because of vibration, noise and smell. It's a cheap compromise at best. Locomotive hauled? Poor acceleration, smoothness loss and still noise and smell. Most attractive passenger diesel train remains the XPT and this is not an interurban train.
Southern Highlands are going to be bottom priority for many years because of lack of planning for urban devlopment or major economic activity. And relative wealth of populations in places like Bowral, combined with fast motorway, means that most will drive. It is lucky to have any local trains at all.
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GeoffreyHansen
Minister for Railways
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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Location: Waiting for the next commuter service to Bathurst
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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:11 am
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I suppose the Southern Highlands is caught between a rock and a hard place with the risk that an investment in electrification will be made pointless if a VHST line is ever built.
Personally I think that the government should make a decision about the Southern Highlands line. A VHST would probaby not serve short haul commuters so much, so I would suggest electrifying the existing line to Picton or ideally to Mittagong/Moss Vale to serve commuters in the long term.
I would assume that a TGV style line would be built away from much of the existing settlement which to me would make electrification over a short distance of the line desireable, or would I be wrong here?
Ideally I would like to see V set/Oscar style running on the Southern Highlands just like they do on the other Cityrail lines. It would be great if some services could even go via Sydney airport (eg with a track linking Central platforms 14 and 15 with the Airport line).
What is really poor is the alignment between Goulburn and Canberra. I notice from the Countrylink timetable that it takes about 90 minutes for the Xplorer to travel this section but about 2 hours 47 minutes from Goulburn to Sydney. I remember thinking last year that the section between Goulburn and Canberra felt like a Mountain branchline rather than a railway to the national capital.
Would a new alignment between Goulburn and Canberra be an option?
I wonder if it would be possible to design infrastructure that could be shared in parts by bothe TGV and traditional trains? Just a thought.
Bring the 3900s back to Brisbane
Bring Karlsruhe Tramtrains to Australian cities
Extend the proposed Metro to Taylor Square
Extend the Gold Coast line to the Tweed
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Riccardo
Minister for Railways
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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:33 am
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| tonyp wrote: | | Riccardo wrote: |
Diesel is fine, as Vline has shown. . |
For a passenger, diesel (multiple unit) is never as good as electric because of vibration, noise and smell. It's a cheap compromise at best. Locomotive hauled? Poor acceleration, smoothness loss and still noise and smell. Most attractive passenger diesel train remains the XPT and this is not an interurban train.
Southern Highlands are going to be bottom priority for many years because of lack of planning for urban devlopment or major economic activity. And relative wealth of populations in places like Bowral, combined with fast motorway, means that most will drive. It is lucky to have any local trains at all. |
Do you have proof for any of this? Or did you just pull it out of your?
If you need to get in touch, drop a comment at the Transport Textbook or on my blog.
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Riccardo
Minister for Railways
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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:41 am
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| GeoffreyHansen wrote: | I suppose the Southern Highlands is caught between a rock and a hard place with the risk that an investment in electrification will be made pointless if a VHST line is ever built.
Personally I think that the government should make a decision about the Southern Highlands line. A VHST would probaby not serve short haul commuters so much, so I would suggest electrifying the existing line to Picton or ideally to Mittagong/Moss Vale to serve commuters in the long term.
I would assume that a TGV style line would be built away from much of the existing settlement which to me would make electrification over a short distance of the line desireable, or would I be wrong here?
Ideally I would like to see V set/Oscar style running on the Southern Highlands just like they do on the other Cityrail lines. It would be great if some services could even go via Sydney airport (eg with a track linking Central platforms 14 and 15 with the Airport line).
What is really poor is the alignment between Goulburn and Canberra. I notice from the Countrylink timetable that it takes about 90 minutes for the Xplorer to travel this section but about 2 hours 47 minutes from Goulburn to Sydney. I remember thinking last year that the section between Goulburn and Canberra felt like a Mountain branchline rather than a railway to the national capital.
Would a new alignment between Goulburn and Canberra be an option?
I wonder if it would be possible to design infrastructure that could be shared in parts by bothe TGV and traditional trains? Just a thought. |
Sorry for the extreme view, but the HST is the ONLY job required for this area. It would probably follow the freeway and have stations like Mandurah line does. It does not matter that people can't use it for local commuting - that is the role of buses to get people aronud locally.
The HS line would not be busy enough to depend on Canberra traffic only, you could fit several interurban stoppers between a 15 minute frequency to Canberra at peak times. And you could carry containerised freight at evening shoulder times say 9pm-12am.
I would suggest a SYD-Bowral-Goulburn-Canberra pattern by default, with extra stations at Douglas Park (Pheasants Nest) and Bargo/Tahmoor that could be stopped at by a Bowral stopper.
The HST would definitely get the "wealthy" people out of their cars because it would beat driving to the CBD offices these people work in by 50% or more, especially if Sydney's rail system could be fixed.
You could then can the Cityrail service and return the Endeavours to Nowra or wherever.
If you need to get in touch, drop a comment at the Transport Textbook or on my blog.
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tonyp
Train Controller
Joined: Dec 20, 2007
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Location: Sydney
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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:41 am
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| Riccardo wrote: |
Do you have proof for any of this? Or did you just pull it out of your? |
Would have thought it was obvious - but I agree dmu technology has improved compared to years ago. Plenty of technical papers I've seen over the years. In a hurry I find for example this quote -
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity_125:
"These new DMUs have better acceleration than the HST due to a higher power/weight ratio, typically 30% more. However it is widely accepted that such vehicles cannot approach the high level of comfort and noise reduction afforded by the Mk 3 coaches of the HST. The sound and effect of an underfloor diesel engine is now widely recognised as being unsuitable for Inter-City trains."
Come up to Sydney and ride a V set.
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thadocta
Chief Train Controller
Joined: Apr 18, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:10 pm
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| tonyp wrote: | Would have thought it was obvious - but I agree dmu technology has improved compared to years ago. Plenty of technical papers I've seen over the years. In a hurry I find for example this quote -
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity_125:
"These new DMUs have better acceleration than the HST due to a higher power/weight ratio, typically 30% more. However it is widely accepted that such vehicles cannot approach the high level of comfort and noise reduction afforded by the Mk 3 coaches of the HST. The sound and effect of an underfloor diesel engine is now widely recognised as being unsuitable for Inter-City trains." |
First time I have ever heard Wikipedia referred to as a "technical paper".
Dave
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tonyp
Train Controller
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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:06 pm
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I dinna refer to Wiki as a technical paper!
I don't want to put any more mileage into this subject because it's a distraction from the thread. dmus are fine for their purpose on main south as well as in Victoria because they are far more cost effective than electrifying just for a limited passenger service. NSW was lucky to have three of the four interurban lines electrified for coal and so is lucky to have better passenger trains for it (and probably better capacity - I haven't seen too many 8 car double deck dmus in Australia!). Step from an Endeavour into a V set and back again and you'll understand the difference straight away. An equivalent comparison is not available to Victorians, so if Endeavours/Bombardiers is all you experience then you won't notice. But in any case far better a good modern train of any type to attract people than an old one.
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masspac
Locomotive Fireman
Joined: Apr 22, 2008
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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:36 pm
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sorry to disappoint anybody who wants a better service for the southern highlands but people have been wanting a better service for years and the only thing that has happened is more services have been cut. It is all political, the southern highlands has always been a safe liberal seat if it was a swinging seat we would have had electrification a long time ago but until that happens nothing will change in the southern highlands. I hope i am wrong but i don't think so.
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neety
Deputy Commissioner
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:58 am
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The only thing that is even remotely likely to happen is getting the 'day train' back to Goulburn. Even to get that, we'd be extremely lucky. To even think about electrification, well.... keep dreaming
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Riccardo
Minister for Railways
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:35 pm
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| tonyp wrote: | | Riccardo wrote: |
Do you have proof for any of this? Or did you just pull it out of your? |
Would have thought it was obvious - but I agree dmu technology has improved compared to years ago. Plenty of technical papers I've seen over the years. In a hurry I find for example this quote -
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity_125:
"These new DMUs have better acceleration than the HST due to a higher power/weight ratio, typically 30% more. However it is widely accepted that such vehicles cannot approach the high level of comfort and noise reduction afforded by the Mk 3 coaches of the HST. The sound and effect of an underfloor diesel engine is now widely recognised as being unsuitable for Inter-City trains."
Come up to Sydney and ride a V set. |
Why do you assume I am Victorian?
You know jack about me (thankfully) so to assume I don't regularly ride V sets is just plain wrong.
As it happens, I used to live in Sydney and rode the Vs daily. I recognise they are quieter and more comfortable than a DMU but guess what?
We are comparing:
-diesel trains
-nothing (trains that don't run)
-nothing (trains that don't exist)
-nothing (trains that pollies refuse to let run all the way to Central)
-nothing (electric trains to Goulburn powered by flying pink elephants)
and guess what - diesel trains win. You can bet on the fictional trains if you want.
If we were talking about running DMUs under the wires from Sydney to Newcastle or Wollongong, you might have had a point.
If you need to get in touch, drop a comment at the Transport Textbook or on my blog.
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TE2815
Minister for Railways
Joined: Mar 19, 2004
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Location: Under the newsdesk !
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:15 pm
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| masspac wrote: | | sorry to disappoint anybody who wants a better service for the southern highlands but people have been wanting a better service for years and the only thing that has happened is more services have been cut. It is all political, the southern highlands has always been a safe liberal seat if it was a swinging seat we would have had electrification a long time ago but until that happens nothing will change in the southern highlands. I hope i am wrong but i don't think so. |
You are not wrong. As I have posted here before, and before you were a member, the Highlands is a catch 22 situation. In 1996 IIRC we, Timetable Review Team (CR, BL, VH, RH, TR and I), sought some improvements in our submissions arguing that service improvements will increase patronage.
The response was patronage level must increase before service improvements or increases can be considered.
Typical bureaucratic mumbo jumbo 
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tonyp
Train Controller
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Location: Sydney
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:27 pm
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| Riccardo wrote: |
We are comparing:
-diesel trains
-nothing (trains that don't run)
-nothing (trains that don't exist)
-nothing (trains that pollies refuse to let run all the way to Central)
-nothing (electric trains to Goulburn powered by flying pink elephants)
and guess what - diesel trains win. |
Yes like I said. Perhaps I read too much into your 'diesel is fine' remark.
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Oldfart
Chief Commissioner
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Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:41 am
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Over 20 Cityrail and CLink services each way each day is actually not too bad considering the typical loadings. It could be improved in the short term by:
* Clockface working, instead of odd times.
* More direct services to Sydney (currently limited by intense conflicting local traffic from Campbelltown inwards - the current services trundle slowly behind all-stopper EMUs - may be overcome by the 2012 planned 'track enhancements' - shown on diagrams as additional track on the opposite side from the SSFL.
In the longer term the whole thing needs to be re-thought, especially in the light of peak oil making air and road travel less competitive with rail. My suggestion is in two stages:
1 - Extending the SSFL from Macarthur to Mittagong via the freeway corridor, and running faster Countrylink services on it (plus an upgraded Goulburn to Canberra track and CTC)., with Cityrail still running 'local' DMUs on the old line.
2 - Linking Newcastle, Sydney and Canberra airports by hi-speed rail links (300kph) exclusively for passenger and fast (air container type) freight, with the SSFL being used exclusively for bulk freight. The Sydney-Canberra link could have stops at Wilton (buses to Picton and W'gong), Sthn Highlands (new corridor east of towns?) and Goulburn Parkway (east of town), and bypassing Queanbeyan via a new corridor to the airport.
A man of genius makes no mistakes; his errors become the portals of discovery (James Joyce).
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