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mjja
Sir Nigel Gresley
Joined: Jan 13, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 21, 2008
Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:12 pm
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Yeah, I know we have overcrowded trains and all that, but getting people out of their cars is still a good thing to do.
Based on many conversations with many people, I have come to the conclusion that most of them only use their cars out of habit. They whinge when the price of petrol goes up, but don't investigate alternatives.
So my ideas are to do with getting people to take that first step towards getting on public transport: give them a Myki for other reasons.
Yes, I know the idea of using Myki for small cashless purchases has been shelved, but hopefully it hasn't been designed out of the system and can be un-shelved at a future date.
Now suppose we abolish (say) parking meters in most areas of Melbourne, and replace them with Myki readers. The cost to the user would be the same, but they'd do it on their Myki instead of fishing around in the glove box for a $2 coin. Then with their monthly Myki statement they get a letter saying "HEY did you know you can ride trains, trams and buses with this?"
Even better would be to put booms and Myki readers at railway station car parks. The car park is part of Zone 1+2, same as the station. You go in, you pay a fare. You happen to ride the train, that's part of the fare. If you're a freeloader pinching a parking spot we don't care becuase you paid for a trip anyway.
And then if we need to make a clearway in a strip of shops all we need is a park and ride at one end, and people can take the tram to the shop of their choice instead of trying to park near it.
Of course, there is one major (potential) drawback - it works both ways. If it makes the switch from car to PT easy, it also makes the switch from PT to car easy. But I'm fairly sure that in these days of petrol prices (which I for one don't see easing any time soon) I think we have more to gain than to lose.
Ideas, criticisms, flames?
Happy Gunzelling and remember, "Go by rail!"
Michael Angelico
President, Smart Passengers Inc
(My opinions are my own unless specifically stated.)
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alstom_888m
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 26, 2007
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Craigieburn Suburban Railway Line, Melbourne
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:30 pm
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Actually I like it.
The only thing that puts me off train is the fact that I have to wait 20 odd minutes every time. Up the frequency, I'd rather 3-car trains at 10 minutes than 6-car at 20.
Also some orbital lines would be nice. What if I want to go from Essendon to Sydenham? You don't seriously expect me to catch a train to the city and catch another out do you?
And don't say bus. There's just something about buses I don't like.
Reliable, Economical, Safe, By Rail.
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mjja
Sir Nigel Gresley
Joined: Jan 13, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 21, 2008
Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:43 pm
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OK, better services, now that's something I can comment on! But not in this thread. Head over to Smart Passengers forums, we've got some discussion happening there.
Happy Gunzelling and remember, "Go by rail!"
Michael Angelico
President, Smart Passengers Inc
(My opinions are my own unless specifically stated.)
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Natronomonas
Train Controller
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:01 pm
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Buses = no legroom. That's why I don't like them.
I do like the idea of myki for parking meters and the like though, and boom gates at suburban stations. Actually I'd quite like to see a small charge at station carparks - carparks are a low value use of often prime land. Put the money raised towards connector buses or something, so that you have a choice though.
Myki-enabled vending machines would also be handy!
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GeoffreyHansen
Minister for Railways
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Waiting for the next commuter service to Bathurst
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:08 pm
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Good thinking Mija!
Bring the 3900s back to Brisbane
Bring Karlsruhe Tramtrains to Australian cities
Extend the proposed Metro to Taylor Square
Extend the Gold Coast line to the Tweed
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ZH836301
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Apr 26, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: BleakCity
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:22 pm
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| mjja wrote: | | Based on many conversations with many people, I have come to the conclusion that most of them only use their cars out of habit. They whinge when the price of petrol goes up, but don't investigate alternatives. |
The main reason people don't use PT, is because it is pathetically slow, not because they can't buy a can of coke with their ticket.
No amount of ticketing manoeuvring will change that.
(Hence why people are so angry about myki - all they see is she who doesn't want to know flogging off something they couldn't care less about, rather than getting to work on the actual system).
You say they don't look for alternatives - well in most cases, an alternative doesn't exist.
| alstom_888m wrote: | Also some orbital lines would be nice. What if I want to go from Essendon to Sydenham? You don't seriously expect me to catch a train to the city and catch another out do you?
And don't say bus. There's just something about buses I don't like. |
Shirley...
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drwaddles
In need of a breath mint
Joined: Aug 16, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Lifting the A-League trophy!
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:27 pm
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| alstom_888m wrote: | | And don't say bus. There's just something about buses I don't like. |
Bus.
If you don't like it, don't travel. We don't have enough money to throw around to appease people with irrational hatred of buses, Yellowsilversparktachi.
| Natronomonas wrote: | | Buses = no legroom. That's why I don't like them. |
I always go for the club seating because of the same problem. It's nothing that can't be changed even within the existing vehicle constraints. We just need to make an issue.
People who talk out their asre usually have bad breath.
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drwaddles
In need of a breath mint
Joined: Aug 16, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Lifting the A-League trophy!
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:29 pm
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| ZH836301 wrote: | | mjja wrote: | | Based on many conversations with many people, I have come to the conclusion that most of them only use their cars out of habit. They whinge when the price of petrol goes up, but don't investigate alternatives. |
The main reason people don't use PT, is because it is pathetically slow, not because they can't buy a can of coke with their ticket.
No amount of ticketing manoeuvring will change that.
(Hence why people are so angry about myki - all they see is she who doesn't want to know flogging off something they couldn't care less about, rather than getting to work on the actual system).
You say they don't look for alternatives - well in most cases, an alternative doesn't exist. |
Agreed.
Such things are just a distraction from the real issues.
People who talk out their asre usually have bad breath.
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Kerpal
Train Controller
Joined: Jul 17, 2005
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Waiting for an express that'll never come ...
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:57 pm
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Maybe they should concentrate on getting Myki working for public transport first!
Better yet ... why don't we start carrying our e-tags around and using those on public transport? The system works already and the range would make tagging on/off trams no problem at all ...
I'm only half joking.
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Riccardo
Minister for Railways
Joined: Aug 20, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 28, 2008
Location: Elsewhere
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:02 pm
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| drwaddles wrote: | | alstom_888m wrote: | | And don't say bus. There's just something about buses I don't like. |
Bus.
If you don't like it, don't travel. We don't have enough money to throw around to appease people with irrational hatred of buses, Yellowsilversparktachi. |
Only minor amendment, flick switch to sarcasm. See if the dribbler gets it. Otherwise 10/10.
If you need to get in touch, drop a comment at the Transport Textbook or on my blog.
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drwaddles
In need of a breath mint
Joined: Aug 16, 2006
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Lifting the A-League trophy!
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:05 pm
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LOL thanks Riccardo.
People who talk out their asre usually have bad breath.
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Riccardo
Minister for Railways
Joined: Aug 20, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 28, 2008
Location: Elsewhere
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:30 pm
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| Natronomonas wrote: | Buses = no legroom. That's why I don't like them.
I do like the idea of myki for parking meters and the like though, and boom gates at suburban stations. Actually I'd quite like to see a small charge at station carparks - carparks are a low value use of often prime land. Put the money raised towards connector buses or something, so that you have a choice though.
Myki-enabled vending machines would also be handy! |
That's an idea - will raise it on the blogs.
Reduce the train fare slightly (or don't raise it as much) for those who don't park at the station, put in a small charge for those who do, and put the charge towards better connecting bus services.
See for those who wonder where I stand on buses...the answer is usually near the door so I can get off...I think buses in Australia are just truck bodies with a bit of steel cladding.
I would like to see buses built as monocoque or whatever they call it like giant Taragos or whatever, car handling characteristics, smoother, safer.
And also get rid of the large buses that carry air around all day. Use small buses, and run them more frequently. And avoid the long runs.
I live about 1.5km from the station and I should be able to get a little turn-up-and-go Super Tarago like thing, with running say every 6 minutes linked with the t-u-a-g train freq I prpose, and just go round on a continuous circuit to a point which happens to be in a straight line as far from the station as it can do in the timeframe. No loops, diversions etc. Just go straight there and straight back.
If you need to get in touch, drop a comment at the Transport Textbook or on my blog.
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Natronomonas
Train Controller
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:57 pm
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| Riccardo wrote: |
Reduce the train fare slightly (or don't raise it as much) for those who don't park at the station, put in a small charge for those who do, and put the charge towards better connecting bus services.
I would like to see buses built as monocoque or whatever they call it like giant Taragos or whatever, car handling characteristics, smoother, safer.
And also get rid of the large buses that carry air around all day. Use small buses, and run them more frequently. And avoid the long runs.
I live about 1.5km from the station and I should be able to get a little turn-up-and-go Super Tarago like thing, with running say every 6 minutes linked with the t-u-a-g train freq I prpose, and just go round on a continuous circuit to a point which happens to be in a straight line as far from the station as it can do in the timeframe. No loops, diversions etc. Just go straight there and straight back. |
A few points:
Driver cost constant. (probably biggest cost, and recurring - govt hates)
Maintenance similar, only slightly less on minibus.
Fuel usage - probably not that different, going from 30 to 60 seats.
So you may as well run some 'proper' bus services doing more than just station loops - maybe 10km routes linking a couple of stations, shops etc along primary or busy secondary roads (ie orange on Melway/Sydway).
There are obviously some savings to be had on smaller vehicles; maybe some routes could be picked that were basically sound with such vehicles, or smaller vehicles could be used offpeak, running in conjunction with larger at peak times. (This should happen on the 401, I think, given the loadings I've seen).
Going for "true cost' for some services like this, myki could work too - charge an extra dollar for a minibus to your door, the main road bus is under normal fare rules. myki for the station carpark if you don't want either option. Incremental charging would certainly be easier... (aka buget airline model). Reasonable in my book - can always compensate those who MUST use PT with concessions... oh, we already do that. And the extra money from those for whom it is a reasonable choice can go back into improving the system, hopefully further increasing ridership.
edit:
As a followup, reading through the PTUA's EWLNA submission, they quote a new car park at the station as costing $17k for (presumably only) one new passenger. Try charging that to your myki!!
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Speed
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Mar 19, 2007
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:34 pm
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The Metcard system removed the need to carry change for tram and bus fares. Bars, on the other hand, still require piles of small change (or splitting $50 notes into small change before spending it). If you want novel Myki ideas, bars could take Myki.
There are already suggestions that Myki could be used to buy groceries. Unlike pubs, most grocery stores take credit-cards and EFTPOS.
If you use Myki at a bar then you also know that you have a means to get home. On the other hand, it might encourage boisterous drunks onto public transport.
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Tremere
Locomotive Driver
Joined: Nov 06, 2006
Last Visited: Nov 30, 2008
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:07 pm
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Would it be technically feasible to build myki elements into an existing credit/debit card? Especially newer ones which work wirelessly (like myki)
Then allow banks to build it into their cards. Bam, you'd have an instant customer base, just tell people to activate the myki portion online. IMO better than trying to make myki a stored-value card in its own right.
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