Low-floors, curves and grades

tonyp · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:44 am

Here are some pix of the press-preview in Plzen of the Skoda ForCity (15T) that I've mentioned before in this forum in relation to achieving a fully-accessible 100% low floor design that also has normal pivoting bogies and good hill-climbing power - all issues to varying degrees in Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide. This revolutionary beast is completely low floor, can go around small radius curves just like a normal bogie tram (without crawling, squealing and grinding!), has 16 hub motors and suspension to cope with less than perfect track and reduce the wear on both track and tram. I hope an Australian operator will be bold enough to try it; it already has orders for Prague and Riga and might be tendering for Toronto.

Several different seating types are displayed in the interior, this is one of them. Note ticket validators for off-tram ticket purchase which is the system there:

Monitors above driver's head are display from internal and external cameras:

View of bogie and motors with skirt removed:

There are two internal passenger information systems. One is a digital display over the passageways between carriages, the other is is GPS-based system. Apart from a map that changes as the tram moves, the middle screen shows the current stop, the other routes that can be interchanged to at that stop, the times the next of those other trams come, the following stops for this tram and how many minutes to each, a symbol for interchange to rail station at the relevant stop and an indication of whether a stop is a fully-accessible platform stop (for systems that are still moving towards accessibility-compliance).

The source of these pix, where more pix are available are:
http://technet.idnes.cz/dnes-poprve-vyjel-prototyp-tramvaje-pro-prahu-21-stoleti-pkx-/tec_reportaze.asp?c=A080916_223514_tec_reportaze_rja
http://www.prazsketramvaje.cz/view.php?cisloclanku=2008091601

drwaddles · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:55 am

Is that triple-gauge track?!

People who talk out their asre usually have bad breath.

tonyp · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:00 pm

Natronomonas · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:34 pm

They should trial anything without squeal, IMO! Very Happy

They look pretty good from the photos, but I doubt they'll get shortlisted here with YT in control... but you never know, nationality may get less important over time.

574M · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:44 pm

penov · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:30 pm

Very interesting to see the bogies, which means its not really 100% low floor at the ends of the cars but near enough. Anything that removes the yacht ride of our present Citidis trams is a bonus and you never have a 100% low floor bus anyway. I believe in bogies for less likelihood of derailment in a side swipe as Melbourne will have to live with trams sharing roads with motor vehicles for many tears to come. If only the design could be manufactured in Oz under licence.

tonyp · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:40 pm

penov - it is truly 100% low floor (standing/walking area) at the ends also. Have a careful look at the pix in the references cited in my post. The no. 2 end in the uni version is like this with same floor level and 5 seats:

based on this subframe:

Of course if the driving cab is at the end, the driver's position is elevated anyway so it's not an issue. With bidirectional of course there is a driver's cab at both ends so the issue becomes academic. I tell ya, the more you study this design the cleverer it is! Every issue that has arisen with low-floors in the last 20 years has been addressed as far as I can see. "Simply clever" as Skoda Auto says, even though an unrelated company sharing the same trademark! BTW trolleybuses are also 100% low floor (walking area) so it's not strictly true that buses can't be too - just helps not having that polluting lump of cast iron to fit somewhere on board!

574M and Natronomonas - I'm sure ComEng would have come up with something as clever and designed for the local market if they were allowed to survive but unfortunately the current drift is towards globalisation so some other lucky country gets to manufacture for us. If we're lucky we might be allowed local assembly if the market is big enough. Unfortunately the only plant (ex ComEng) is owned by one of the o/s manufacturers so we're a bit up shyte creek.

And yes interesting issue with YT/Veolia. Do you think their French bias extends to vehicles - even if an (I assume) unrelated French company? If this is the case then only non-French owned operators will have the chance to be free of the rail-grinders (unless they choose Bombardiers where you get a choice of either rail grinders or up and down floors to trip over!).

Australian operators have historically tended to stay in their comfort zones, first everything was British (the 'best', like heck!), then US then recently slowly taking in western Europe - but unfortunately it doesn't provide us with the best-designed vehicles. Funny thing is the Czechs were by far the world's largest tram manufacturers for most of the second half of the 20th century and have awesome experience in design, operation and engineering as this example shows. Unfortunately they have not been able to knock off the commercial strength of the big westerners since the 1990s - except for some success in North America of all places. Barring some miracle their best chance might be to sew up a deal with Bombardier or somesuch to manufacture under licence.

Natronomonas · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:21 pm

409 · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:33 pm

As much as I would love to see one operate here in Adelaide, there is no way. With the motors mounted outside of the wheels (and by the looks of the photos, by some fair way), they would not have a hope of clearing the platforms here due to our tight clearances.

However, I may be wrong so I am going to ask, what is the total body width of these trams?

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"I'd use an 830 for my respirator!"

tonyp · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:36 pm

^^
Yes I reckon it is meant to be a "t"!

The floor height is roughly along the line of the bottom edge of the doors, just a slight ramp down at the exits of a few mils as you see in the photo. The external bogie height is not a guide as the bogie housing only goes in at that height for as much as is needed for the bogie to pivot. The centre section of the bogie drops down below floor level (there are no continuous axles) and there is only a slight rampover in the central aisle of about 100 mils across the bogie pivot points. So yes it is all low floor but some almost imperceptable undulation at certain points. No major ramps and certainly no steps. However the floor of the drivers cab has the luxury of sitting above outer bogie level but I don't think anybody quibbles about that in a "100%" claim. The driver could be dropped down to the lower level but then he wouldn't have the commanding viewpoint he needs. The plan might help (you should get better quality at one of those refs):

Edit: just saw your post 409. The plan answers your question, 2460 mm wide (how's that for Adelaide?). 3400 high from track to roof, excluding panto, 31.4 m long. Total pax capacity 300, about 60 seats in this version.

409 · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:13 pm

So close yet so far, only 60cm too wide! Suppose if some of the narrowed German systems wanted a few, we could always tack our order onto theirs like we did with the Flexis.

2008 BOGIE AWARD WINNER - Best Contribution to Model Railways

LINK TO YOUTUBE PROFILE

"I'd use an 830 for my respirator!"

tonyp · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:31 pm

409 · Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:19 am

Whoops, my mistake. Had a long day today. Either way, there is only about 3/4cm of space between the edge of the platform and the body of a Flexi so there isn't much in the way of space anyway.

2008 BOGIE AWARD WINNER - Best Contribution to Model Railways

LINK TO YOUTUBE PROFILE

"I'd use an 830 for my respirator!"

mjja · Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:03 am

Very interesting. What would the performance of the beast be? I don't speak Czech.

Happy Gunzelling and remember, "Go by rail!"

Michael Angelico
President, Smart Passengers Inc
(My opinions are my own unless specifically stated.)

penov · Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:01 am