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mjja
Sir Nigel Gresley
Joined: Jan 13, 2003
Last Visited: Jan 7, 2009
Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
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| mjja |
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:25 am
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| Revenue wrote: | | For me, the Stony Point Line is interesting in that it could provide a model to extend the suburban 'frequency' of the network. For example, you could run a shuttle sprinter between Melton and Sunshine to connect with suburban services. Customer's wouldn't love it, but I'm sure that it would result in higher patronage (eg. operate Sunshine-Melton like Newport-Williamstown). There's always a balance between what people like, and what actually generates patronage - the most loved solution isn't necessarily the one that generates the highest patronage. |
I agree. The benefits of electrification as demanded by the Meltonians after they were left out of MOTC are not actually benefits of electrification but of a suburban style service. Traditionally in Melbourne we have always done the two together but it doesn't have to be that way. A 20 minute service frequency with a single Sprinter or V/Lo would do the trick - either unloading them all at Sunshine or going right to SSS. All for a tiny fraction of the cost of electrification.
Happy Gunzelling and remember, "Go by rail!"
Michael Angelico
President, Smart Passengers Inc
(My opinions are my own unless specifically stated.)
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mjja
Sir Nigel Gresley
Joined: Jan 13, 2003
Last Visited: Jan 7, 2009
Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
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Revenue
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Dec 01, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 27, 2008
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:33 am
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| Quote: | | A 20 minute service frequency with a single Sprinter or V/Lo would do the trick - either unloading them all at Sunshine or going right to SSS. All for a tiny fraction of the cost of electrification. |
With track capacity a little tight, if you were going to bring them into SSS, then you might as well electrify! 
So here's the 64 million dollar question - if Meltonians were offered the choice of their current direct services, or a high frequency connection to Sunshine, which would they prefer. I think that the community would probably want to stick with the status quo - even though the later would probably deliver significantly higher patronage.
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Natronomonas
Train Controller
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Last Visited: Jan 8, 2009
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| Natronomonas |
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:42 pm
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If the latter, it might be 'sold' as long as there was a reliable connection/interchange (cross-platform, not underpass or something), since I doubt Sunshine is 'turn up and go' frequency.
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fullofrubbish
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Mar 14, 2007
Last Visited: Jan 7, 2009
Location: Parkville
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| fullofrubbish |
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:31 pm
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| revenue wrote: | | If Meltonians were offered the choice of their current direct services, or a high frequency connection to Sunshine... |
Why do they have to be mutually exclusive? I say in addition to the existing direct hourly service to/from Ballarat, what about offering an hourly sprinter/velocity type shuttle to Sunshine on the opposite half hour? I.e
10.00 - direct to SCS
10.30 - shuttle to sunshine
11.00 - direct to SCS
and vice versa
Potentially, Melton's off-peak service could be doubled with just one velocity, driver and conductor! Anyone out there with good knowledge of the Ballarat line who think they could work out an example timetable?
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Somebody in the WWW
Comeng Gunzel
Joined: Oct 08, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 31, 2008
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| Somebody in the WWW |
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:44 pm
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I presume this will not be popular due to the perceived 'divide' between diesel and electric trains in Victoria, which is more related to the current services provided than the type of traction, but why does any expanded diesel service have to be a shuttle?
If it was electrified the service provided would most likely be as a 'new' line running all the way to the CBD, not a shuttle from Sunshine. Why does the type of traction have to determin this?
You could, for example run diesel stock as suburban services, operating through to the CBD as an interim measure. No differences to how an electric service would operate, except the different form of traction.
For those who think it sounds too strange to contemplate - someone who catches the train from Oak Flats to Wollongong in NSW will often have an electric set on one service and an Endeavour from Nowra on the next one - no major difference in terms of the service provided.
Thoughts? 
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alstom_888m
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 26, 2007
Last Visited: Dec 23, 2008
Location: Craigieburn Suburban Railway Line, Melbourne
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| alstom_888m |
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:29 pm
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It's perception that counts. Melbournians won't see a diesel service as suburban.
Reliable, Economical, Safe, By Rail.
Away for Summer. Won't be on RP.
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SteamtoStay
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Sep 02, 2005
Last Visited: Jan 8, 2009
Location: Behind you!
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:39 pm
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| alstom_888m wrote: | | It's perception that counts. Melbournians won't see a diesel service as suburban. |
What if we purchase some of the Adelaide comengs? I don;t know much about them, except they're diesels that look like our sparks... 
Happy Chanukah! 
David S.
*Vice President, Smart Passengers Inc
(My opinions are my own unless specifically stated.)
*Holder of Cert I, Transport & Logistics
*Bogie Winner 2008 - "Best Contribution to Signalling and Infrastructure"
*Youngest person in 20 years to author four Connex Circulars
*Youngest person ever to sit at the control desk in METROL (I think)
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vlinecars
V/Man - "Yeah!"
Joined: Feb 01, 2003
Last Visited: Jan 8, 2009
Location: Moe, Victoria
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| vlinecars |
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:14 pm
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| fullofrubbish wrote: | | Potentially, Melton's off-peak service could be doubled with just one velocity, driver and conductor! Anyone out there with good knowledge of the Ballarat line who think they could work out an example timetable? |
I'll see what I can come up with; the issue though would be sourcing the crew and the sprinter or VLocity! All three items are pretty scarce at V/Line; though during the off peak a Sprinter or VLoc could probably be let free!
Cheers,
Matt Julian
Railpage Australia™ Forums - Young Member of the Year, 2006 & 2008
Railpage Australia™ Forums - Most Informative Poster, 2006 & 2008
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alstom_888m
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Aug 26, 2007
Last Visited: Dec 23, 2008
Location: Craigieburn Suburban Railway Line, Melbourne
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Revenue
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Dec 01, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 27, 2008
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melbtrip
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Mar 02, 2004
Last Visited: Dec 21, 2008
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| melbtrip |
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Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:31 pm
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| Revenue wrote: | | Quote: | | Whatever they do, the track must be duplicated. |
Thus killing the idea dead! 
Anyone can run a rail network with unlimited funds! The challenge is how to deliver the maximum benefit for a fraction of the cost so you can put your money into other things.
Personally, I'd be curious to see what kind of service could be operated with a single sprinter carriage running a shuttle service between Melton (or maybe even Bacchus Marsh) to Sunbury - with NO additional capital works (or very, very minor capital works).
For example, it might be found that you need to let trains cross at Bacchus Marsh. You could put an extra platform in, but it would be cheaper to just add a siding past the station (eg. train from city lets off passengers, goes into the siding to let train past - gives the crew time to change ends without blocking the line for 10 mins). If you can find a solution with NO infrastructure requirements, you could actually trial it for a few months during the day or on weekends and see what reaction you get. |
What is need for the new Bacchus Marsh service is the following:
• Duplicated of the track between Deer Park West Junction and Bacchus Marsh
• Electrification between Sunshine and Bacchus Marsh
• Extra Platform at Bacchus Marsh so has two Platforms
If the state government wants to do electrification to Bacchus Marsh and They need to do the following:
• Run them as express service and not as a stopping all station service
• New trains with Better seats (nearly same seats as new V/Line trains or Sydney’s City Rail H set (OSCAR) Outer Suburban Cars)
I think I will not get a replay back from Revenue about my ideas of running the new Bacchus Marsh service.
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fullofrubbish
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Mar 14, 2007
Last Visited: Jan 7, 2009
Location: Parkville
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Revenue
Assistant Commissioner
Joined: Dec 01, 2004
Last Visited: Nov 27, 2008
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Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:29 pm
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| Quote: | What is need for the new Bacchus Marsh service is the following:
• Duplicated of the track between Deer Park West Junction and Bacchus Marsh
• Electrification between Sunshine and Bacchus Marsh
• Extra Platform at Bacchus Marsh so has two Platforms |
If that logic had been applied to Cranbourne, we never would have gotten that electrification - as the cost would have been about five times higher
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PClark
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Apr 01, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 27, 2008
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Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:35 pm
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Maybe, but Cranbourne is the "end of the line" for the foreseeable future.
Bacchus Marsh is on the RFR to Ballarat so more frequent sparks on a still single track would cause chaos for the Vline services sharing the same track.
There are already enough problems.
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