Where's me Maryborough?

 
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Never mind that the return of pax rail services will be a fantastic economic boost for Maryborough / Clunes for weekend travellers, as Echuca has become.
"The Vinelander"

Echuca is a great place to visit for a weekend. There's lots to do. I'm not certain that Maryborough would attract weekend tourists by train in great numbers. What is there after you've inspected the station? (That's a real question, rather than rhetorical, as I enjoy a weekend trip by train, and would be keen to try Maryborough)

Clunes is a small town, perhaps interesting enough for a while, but again, I'm not certain that it will be weekend destination for rail travelers. My daughter spent nine weeks there in a school campus, and the times we visited her we did not get the impression that staying in the town would support us as tourists without a car, for a weekend. (except for the Clunes booktown weekend)

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  Blinkey Junior Train Controller

I think that this highlights the need for a day return service from Melbourne.In Maryborough and district, there are a few additional things to do apart from the Maryborough Railway station - I would think that the Pyreneese wineries would run bus tours to the Avoca district (20 mins from Maryborough), there is a fine Art Gallery also various musical and cultural events that occur from time to time. The Maryborough Highland festival on New Years Day etc etc

Regards

Blinkey
  Sir Thomas Bent Minister for Railways

Location: Banned
The rumour was trains would be back early July - dont think that will happen...

Rick
"RustyRick"


It wasn't THAT long ago, that when I first posted about the return of the Maryborough train, around 2005, I was ridiculed by the naysayers for making such a ridiculous suggestion Exclamation

Shades of Deja vu
"Mikelander"
No - just because it's a ridiculous idea, doesn't mean we won't see governments doing it and doesn't mean we don't think you're a fool.

Think of what useful stuff you could have done with the money and resources (that doesn't involve your foaming gunzel fantasies).
"Sir Thomas Bent"


I'm happy for you to think I'm a fool if that means I have an imagination
"Mikelander"
Yes. Somewhat overactive and possibly too full of foam.

and can see where a pax demand will be, in the medium to long term.  Don't feel too defeated DT
"Mikelander"
Not at all, Mikelander.  Unlike you, I don't delude myself into justifying any rabid gunzel fantasies on other people's money.  To me, you're sport.  Nothing more, nothing less.  So keep on going - I enjoy watching you look like an idiot.

Never mind that the return of pax rail services will be a fantastic economic boost for Maryborough / Clunes for weekend travellers, as Echuca has become.
"Mikelander"
Tell me, what about Elmore and Rochester?  How did they go with the once-a-week sop to Echuca?  

And for the locals, the ability to travel by safe and economical train
"Mikelander"
Prove it is economical, Mikelander.  You make the claim, now back it up.

it's just common-sense, which furthermore will assist in growing the area and making Maryborough another option for tree-changers.
"Mikelander"
Like Ararat? Yep.  Lotsa trees there, too.

Though, I don't expect short sighted, one dimensional economists, such as yourself to agree with me......and the pro-rail, improved PT supporters are happy to make allowances for your ilk knowing that right, and the economic prosperity of another commutable town is on their side.
"Mikelander"
Must be easy being as dim as you, seeing everything as just one or the other, or just black and white or that everyone who disagrees with you is some evil Beeching clone and everyone who isn't is lovely and smart.  I mean, who would ever consider that someone who thinks building passenger services so Mikelander can have his geriatric relatives maybe use it until they croak soon with a free pass paid for by someone else is ever so enlightened?

Now let's hear from the bus supporters, the status quo's and those who think the new train timetable for the train will remain in perpetuity at one return service a day

Mike.
"Mikelander"
Yep.  Enough using emoticons like a 15-year-old schoolgirl and having everyone agree with your fantasies.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Idea  Pity there isn't a sour grapes emoticon..... Mwa ha ha ha!
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
^Ever going to respond to a counterargument?

Never mind that the return of pax rail services will be a fantastic economic boost for Maryborough / Clunes for weekend travellers, as Echuca has become.
"Mikelander"

How so?  The proposed service (one per day) only seems to cater for regional travellers.

And for the locals, the ability to travel by safe and economical train to work, or for social or recreational reasons be it Ballarat or Melbourne...it's just common-sense, which furthermore will assist in growing the area and making Maryborough another option for tree-changers.
"Mikelander"

Who is going to bother with a one train per day service for any of those things?

Now let's hear from the bus supporters, the status quo's and those who think the new train timetable for the train will remain in perpetuity at one return service a day    
"Mikelander"

If it can't support five return services from the outset, given the expense of the project, then trains are simply not justifiable.
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

^Ever going to respond to a counterargument?
"ZH836301"


It's a bit rich to demand an answer from him when you can't respond to demands placed on yourself.


If it can't support five return services from the outset, given the expense of the project, then trains are simply not justifiable.
"ZH836301"


By that statement, the only rail pax services (outside of) metro) that should run are Geelong, Seymour, Ballarat, Bendigo and maybe Traralgon. But that's your EcoRat opinion. Yes? There should be no XPT either, presumably.
  Highrailer Assistant Commissioner

Location: Somewhere out on the track......anywhere around the country
Hmmm speaking of Elmore and Rochester......

I caught the morning train from Rochy to Melb a few weeks ago & the train service must be doing something for the locals up there, in hindsight i should have counted the amount of people on the platform waiting for the train as well as how many boarded at Elmore, there were quite a few let alone the one's that boarded the train at Echuca.

The only down side was how slow the train was crawling along at some slow speed......seems a waste to be using Vlocity trains on that line.
  feralmet Station Master

Location: Carisbrook 3464, Vic
"geriatric relatives maybe use it until they croak soon with a free pass paid for by someone else"

That's a real choice comment Tommy, but since we will both be past it one day, I expect I'll have the pleasure of your company on one of these "unlikely" train services.  I'm looking forward to that.

It's not a matter of monetary economics, but an inevitable matter of physical resources.  There will soon be shortages of liquid fuel so dire that they will put an end to casual personal transport over long distances.  Ergo, the creation of the 21st Century rail network MUST begin now while the present abundance of liquid fuel still makes that task possible.

Rail must be recognised for what it is:  Low friction, mass transport.

Shortage of cheap liquid fuel is coming..... but when and how is a matter for argument on other more appropriate forums.

Cheers... Chris of Carisbrook
  Sir Thomas Bent Minister for Railways

Location: Banned
^Ever going to respond to a counterargument?
"ZH836301"


It's a bit rich to demand an answer from him when you can't respond to demands placed on yourself.
"ParkesHub"
To ZH836301's credit, he's done a lot more than the Mikelander ever will.  Pretty sure the rates of road travel to and from Mildura is from him.  

I doubt, aside from some inane remarks and a bunch of emoticons, we'll get anything intelligent from the Mikelander, and certainly nothing to back his claim about a Marybugger service being "economical".  But I will hound him on it - it's amusing to see what emoticon he comes up with each time, and watch to see which stock statement he trots out.  Sort of like one of Skinner's pigeons, only stupider.

I just don't want to see the same mistakes repeated again and again over railway usage in Victoria since the Bendigo line was built.  And extending passenger services to Mildura is one of those mistakes we keep making.

Problem is that Mikelander mainly, as well as some others, just have nostalgia for pwetty twains that never really existed, and not the fact that there are some things that are just black holes to suck a finite amount of resources.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

I doubt, aside from some inane remarks and a bunch of emoticons, we'll get anything intelligent from the Mikelander, and certainly nothing to back his claim about a Marybugger service being "economical".  
"Sir Thomas Bent"


An example of the proposed off-peak Maryborough/Ballarat fares as follows:

Adult single - $5.60

Concession Single - $2.80

Adult Return - $11.20

Concession Return - $5.60

Looks a reasonably economical fare to me and certainly cheaper than driving....

Idea Ohh that's right, because you're a bean counter, you're looking at the economics from your perspective of running the service ExclamationBang Head Silly me, and here's me thinking you were thinking the fares will be too expensive. Kill Me

As the new service will be met from allocated and predetermined government funding, I presume your argument is that it shouldn't run at all, as it can never cover its costs.
Consequently using your analogy, NO V/Line rail service should operate in the state of Victoria as NONE of them actually covers its operating cost Exclamation

As we will never agree, IE, I support the new Ballarat/Maryborough service for the economic development and community connectivity it will bring.
You'll never support the service because it 'loses money'.

I'll move on...

I wrote several pages back that I'm no longer responding to ZH's frankly wierd comments.

He/she appears to be on some mind altering substance perhaps a reflection on life at Sunbury Question , and simply posts unintelligible gibberish Exclamation
ZH would be at home on a pro-car/bus forum and is likely a member of the Liberal party, read, anti-PT outside of Melbourne and I wonder why he/she bothers to post such extreme right wing economics in these pages.

As for you DT, clearly you aren't employed in the policy development area of DoI with some of the imaginative people I'm personally acquainted with, who already have some great runs on the board with more to come as you believe Victoria stops at the end of the RFR lines, and, as that is the implied case in your single dimensional economist counters, you too may soon be ignored by me.

The premature end of your 'sport' Question

I don't quite understand why you need to back up your potentially sensible, though in my view bean counter, economist counter-arguments with personal insults.
IMO it can only mean a lack of knowledge or real interest about the future direction of regional pax rail and a wanton desire to have pax rail artificially constricted to the limits of the RFR, despite the pax voting with their feet and their posteriors whenever new or reinstated rail services are introduced, and their patronage increases way beyond the scope of the original bus service/s.

Counter from your economist perspective as you will, however you cannot counter the facts as they stand; pax, new pax and ongoing increasing numbers of pax embrace reinstated regional rail services.
It's been proven with Bairnsdale, Ararat, and soon with Albury/Wodonga et al. Compare former travel figures before the temporary cessation of rail services to the present bustituted figures and my case rests, along with the added cars at Seymour station belonging to people who live further up the line towards Albury.

Your counter would be buses don't lose money, trains do. The service to Albury should remain as buses.

But I digress.
Strangely enough governments, in our case, the current Victorian government realises reintroduced rail equals greatly increased patronage, which goes in concert with growing the state beyond the limits of what you consider to be its boundaries, IE the end of the RFR lines.

Moreover, despite the totally outrageous fares charged in the UK compared to us more fortunate in Victoria, frequent cross country rail services work well over there which leads me to suggest ongoing pax rail development here in Victoria, particularly so as the region within a 160KM arc of the CBD which, whether we like it or not has become a semi-rural combined with semi-urban residential development region with a variation of Melbourne's green wedges therein.


A really forward looking State Government would be putting much greater emphasis into growing Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo and lessening the growth priority on Melbourne.    A V/Locity service linking Geelong, Ballarat, Maryborough and Castlemaine to Bendigo running 2 - 3 return trips a day would assist and cater for regional centre growth , and also provide feeder services from  the intermediate towns to connect at Castlemaine, Ballarat and Geelong to/from Melbourne . In this way these intermediate towns would automatically become more attractive places to live as they would be linked to both their nearest provincial centre as well as to Melbourne.  This is the sort of radical "years ahead of its time" transport initiative a forward looking Government should be undertaking .
"kuldalai"


Agreed, so IMO roll on the regional pax rail improvements for the reasons I've stated earlier and let me open an undoubted further counter from you, with more economist rant about why the next rail project, IMO, shouldn't be Geelong to Bendigo via the existing per way and the undoubted economic development and community connectivity that will bring.

This idea BTW discussed in these pages some 3 or 4 years ago was dismissed out of hand by the one dimensional economists and no doubt will be again.

How times have rapidly moved on Exclamation

It will be an expensive exercise, and it won't happen next year or the year after, however it will happen perhaps in the next 10 years but IMO it won't be a pointless project despite yours and others impending counter arguments.

As the small towns in this arc grow, as their quality of life attributes become increasingly apparent, and their links with their service towns continues to develop, IE Geelong, Ballarat, Maryborough, Castlemaine, Bendigo and potentially to Echuca, the connectivity realised by a rejuvenated cross country pax rail service developed through a community consultation process is inevitable.

My greatest dread is that Ted, who by virtue of his conservative, pro-car ideology may one day be at the reins of this state and all this potentially good work, as exists in the UK may well be for nought, or at best remain the status quo bus service.

That is, until the bigger picture political cycle resets itself.

Comment as you will with your predictably economics perspective.

Mike.
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

 
^Ever going to respond to a counterargument?
"ZH836301"


It's a bit rich to demand an answer from him when you can't respond to demands placed on yourself.
"ParkesHub"
To ZH836301's credit, he's done a lot more than the Mikelander ever will.  Pretty sure the rates of road travel to and from Mildura is from him.  
"Sir Thomas Bent"


Yeah true. However when asked repeatedly to nominate any country rail projects he supports, there's just silence. However, I think he's answered by stating this :- "If it can't support five return services from the outset, given the expense of the project, then trains are simply not justifiable."

Essentially, by that statement, there should be no pass rail at all. Period. The reason is that there is no pass rail service that does not require a subsidy. Including Metro.


Problem is that Mikelander mainly, as well as some others, just have nostalgia for pwetty twains that never really existed, and not the fact that there are some things that are just black holes to suck a finite amount of resources.
"Sir Thomas Bent"

That's true too. When I mentioned reopening the closed lines around Ballarat, some thought me serious!!!
  PClark Chief Commissioner

I think that a lot of the rail fanatics, who justify any financial loss on providing rail services as a "community service obligation" whose "community benefits"  way outweigh any monetary costs involved, are living in a fantasy world where money grows on trees or is produced by waving a magic wand and chanting "Abracadabra".

Try that argument on anybody who has just bought a fairly modest family home in a comfortable, but hardly "posh" suburb like Mont Albert or Glen Iris and finds themselves owing Brumby and his cohorts $50,000+ in Stamp Duty!
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

I think that a lot of the rail fanatics, who justify any financial loss on providing rail services as a "community service obligation" whose "community benefits"  way outweigh any monetary costs involved, are living in a fantasy world where money grows on trees or is produced by waving a magic wand and chanting "Abracadabra".
"PClark"


...or have read The Magic Pudding too many times. I think the issue is really to determine the 'trade off' position. Most voters do support passenger rail...for whatever reason.

You are close to the Liberal Party. What is the feeling about country pass rail in the Party? There's scant to read from their website.



Try that argument on anybody who has just bought a fairly modest family home in a comfortable, but hardly "posh" suburb like Mont Albert or Glen Iris and finds themselves owing Brumby and his cohorts $50,000+ in Stamp Duty!
"PClark"


We are about to pony up $47K for our new Macedon digs. But, really Peter, I think most of us realise that we do need to pay our taxes to get services that benefit everyone and not just ourselves (I could do with a bit less on the stamp duty though!!!).
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Yeah true. However when asked repeatedly to nominate any country rail projects he supports, there's just silence.
"ParkesHub"

Wrong - I already answered your question back on P22 of the Mildura thread.

However, I think he's answered by stating this :- "If it can't support five return services from the outset, given the expense of the project, then trains are simply not justifiable."

Essentially, by that statement, there should be no pass rail at all. Period. The reason is that there is no pass rail service that does not require a subsidy. Including Metro.
"ParkesHub"

Again, wrong - I can't see how one could arrive at that conclusion from a comment directly attributed to "the project" (ie. Maryborough).

This project is building new stations and tying up rollingstock at a cost of $50 million, and I would sure hope that $50 million would amount to more than a pathetic single service each way per day.  Given it will already use up one set, a shuttle should be capable of five return trips per day, and given the expenses have already been made, that's exactly what I want to see.  One service per day will carry nothing but geriatrics, the carless, and the poor - a drain that will have no effect on reducing highway traffic.

And it's incredibly bogus, juvenile thinking to assume that any loss is equated as the same (you're not the only one doing it).  Using rail where rail is not the most economical method (ie. where single coaches would suffice) is only adding unnecessarily to expenses, and increasing those subsidies (which means less many to spend on actual service quality).  To use the analogy I posted earlier, if you were a freight operator, would you route a semi for a punnet of strawberries?

By that statement, the only rail pax services (outside of) metro) that should run are Geelong, Seymour, Ballarat, Bendigo and maybe Traralgon. But that's your EcoRat opinion. Yes? There should be no XPT either, presumably.
"ParkesHub"

Completely one dimensional thinking - why would you extrapolate my Maryborough response to other, markedly different, lines?

Take Swan Hill for example - being a longer line, the tipping point as extra services are added before extra rollingstock is required is different.  Journey length also means different responses to speed, frequency, hours of operation, etc.  Other lines may see freight usage that is keeping rail to high standards or have passenger loadings spread differently.  In common though, all are 'existing' with no new infrastructure cost (bar maintenance) to keep open (ie. no new platform building costs).

Regardless, my general thinking is that service frequency should increase on Vline's longer routes (including its coach network).
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Looks a reasonably economical fare to me and certainly cheaper than driving....
"The Mikelander"

If you're so poor you don't mind running your life in line with one train service, that is.

Silly me, and here's me thinking you were thinking the fares will be too expensive.
"The Mikelander"

Yes, silly you.   IdeaIdeaIdeaIdea

As the new service will be met from allocated and predetermined government funding, I presume your argument is that it shouldn't run at all, as it can never cover its costs.
Consequently using your analogy, NO V/Line rail service should operate in the state of Victoria as NONE of them actually covers its operating cost
"The Mikelander"

I suppose in your world, -9000 = -2000?  Because that's is exactly what you're trying to say, after all.

As we will never agree, IE, I support the new Ballarat/Maryborough service for the economic development and community connectivity it will bring.
"The Mikelander"

Economic development?  The train won't actually run at times convenient for outsiders to visit the town.

And connectivity?  It already has a coach service.

wrote several pages back that I'm no longer responding to ZH's frankly wierd comments.
"The Mikelander"

Where weird = differs from Mikelander's trains to everywhere viewpoint.

He/she appears to be on some mind altering substance
"The Mikelander"

Yes please.

ZH would be at home on a pro-car/bus forum
"The Mikelander"

I like cars, can't say I like buses though.

and is likely a member of the Liberal party
"The Mikelander"

Wrong, I'm not a party hack like yourself.

anti-PT outside of Melbourne
"The Mikelander"

Wrong, as PT ≠ trains to everywhere

extreme right wing economics
"The Mikelander"

Wrong, but apparently left wing to you means throwing out basic economic principles.

IMO it can only mean a lack of knowledge or real interest about the future direction of regional pax rail and a wanton desire to have pax rail artificially constricted to the limits of the RFR, despite the pax voting with their feet and their posteriors whenever new or reinstated rail services are introduced, and their patronage increases way beyond the scope of the original bus service/s.
"The Mikelander"

Who cares?  Wasting hundreds of millions to flush out a few more pensioners doesn't justify anything.

Your counter would be buses don't lose money, trains do. The service to Albury should remain as buses.
"The Mikelander"

Very Happy  Because the Albury line with it's multiple large towns is directly compareable to Maryborough  ExclamationExclamationExclamationExclamationExclamationArrowIdeaQuestion

Ted, who by virtue of his conservative, pro-car ideology
"The Mikelander"

Cite?  I honestly don't see much difference between the two parties - token rail service here, billion dollar freeway there.
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

Yeah true. However when asked repeatedly to nominate any country rail projects he supports, there's just silence.
"ParkesHub"

Wrong - I already answered your question back on P22 of the Mildura thread.
"ZH836301"

Please don't think that this:
Aspects of the RFR project (such as signalling upgrades and the Bungaree diversion), greater regional service frequencies, and increased speeds where justifiable.

...is any kind of an answer to what I asked you! It's vague and non-specific. Not what I asked about.

However, I think he's answered by stating this :- "If it can't support five return services from the outset, given the expense of the project, then trains are simply not justifiable."

Essentially, by that statement, there should be no pass rail at all. Period. The reason is that there is no pass rail service that does not require a subsidy. Including Metro.
"ParkesHub"

Again, wrong - I can't see how one could arrive at that conclusion from a comment directly attributed to "the project" (ie. Maryborough).
"ZH836301"

Easy. You made the statement and, in the absence of anything other, there's really only one conclusion to draw. So, tell us, what services ex-Melbourne are worth retaining?


By that statement, the only rail pax services (outside of) metro) that should run are Geelong, Seymour, Ballarat, Bendigo and maybe Traralgon. But that's your EcoRat opinion. Yes? There should be no XPT either, presumably.
"ParkesHub"

Completely one dimensional thinking - why would you extrapolate my Maryborough response to other, markedly different, lines?
"ZH836301"

Well, it was you who failed to create the distiction between Maryborough and other lines so why would anyone choose to create the distinction that you might think but do not state? It's your point to make....no-one elses!
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
I think you're backpedaling to save face - the distinction was quite clear in the responses.

And I've answered your question - take it, or leave it.

(Unless you wanted a foaming response, such as I support 1 in 2.3 sleeper replacement from 87.145 to 96.894 on the Timbuktu Line.)

So, tell us, what services ex-Melbourne are worth retaining?
"ParkesHub"

All of them, for the moment.
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

I think you're backpedaling to save face - the distinction was quite clear in the responses.

And I've answered your question - take it, or leave it.
"ZH836301"


I don't need to pedal or backpedal. If you were a tad more fulsome in your replies generally and sans poorly delivered sarcasm (Timbuktu, for instance), you might stand a better chance of convincing others of the merits of your case.

So, tell us, what services ex-Melbourne are worth retaining?
"ParkesHub"

All of them, for the moment.
"ZH836301"


Thanks
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Both Bendigo - Echuca and  Ballarat - Maryborough routes lend themselves to a more radical approach like running  3 - 4 return shuttle trips daily connecting at Bendigo &  Ballarat respectively with mainline RFR  V/Locity services to/from  Melbourne.  

Given the lower line speeds  Bendigo - Echuca and Ballarat - Maryborough these shuttles could be run more effectively with 2 Sprinters coupled on the Echuca leg, and a Single Sprinter on Maryborough . (Leave the faster Vlocity sets on the RFR Corridors.)

The additional track maintenance costs associated with running extra trips would be marginal, and the initial track upgrading cost is the same for 1 train as 5 .

Running these two services as stand alone high frequency Sprinter shuttles would better meet local travel needs  to and from the main regional centres of Bendigo & Ballarat whilst still providing properly scheduled connections to and from Melbourne .
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The additional track maintenance costs associated with running extra trips would be marginal, and the initial track upgrading cost is the same for 1 train as 5 .  
"kuldalai"


IMO re-instating old stations, platforms, DDA access along the line will be almost as big an upgrade cost as the track itself.

Every little, once dying now growing hamlet is going to want its station re-instated.

Mike.
  Ballast_Plough Chief Commissioner

Location: Lilydale, Vic
Both Bendigo - Echuca and  Ballarat - Maryborough routes lend themselves to a more radical approach like running  3 - 4 return shuttle trips daily connecting at Bendigo &  Ballarat respectively with mainline RFR  V/Locity services to/from  Melbourne.
"kuldalai"


I still maintain that I'd like to see 2 Sprinters running shuttles between Maryborough and Geelong which would carefully connect to RFR services at Ballarat & Geelong.

e.g. Sprinter arrive from Maryborough at Ballarat. 10 mins later Vlo arrives from city, then departs for Ararat or back to Melb. Then 5 mins later Sprinter heads off to Geelong.
  Blinkey Junior Train Controller

Hear tell that they are starting driver training on the Ballarat - Maryborough section this week - better get out there with the cameras to get the first short of a Velocity on this line.

Will update when I hear more

Blinkey
  Blinkey Junior Train Controller

Local member for Ripon will be making an announcement on Tuesday morning regarding the passenger rail service to Maryborough.

Again, I will update when I get more info

Blinkey
  Junior Rodgie Dodgie

Location: Allansford
Hear tell that they are starting driver training on the Ballarat - Maryborough section this week - better get out there with the cameras to get the first short of a Velocity on this line.

Will update when I hear more

Blinkey
"Blinkey"


If your after a Velocity this week.. Im sorry to dissapoint.. Its a plain old N class this week.. Doing the Driver training
  Blinkey Junior Train Controller

Ah well, later perhaps.

It will be good to see any type of passenger train on the line

Yours Blinkey

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