Future of the Williamstown/Altona/Werribee/Geelong lines

 
  Robbb01 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Shhhh!
Hey all.....
Over the past few days since the release of the transport plan i've been thinking about alternatives to the Tarneit link.

From my research i have laid out 3 options that should be considered for the Werribee railway line corridoor.

My most preffered option is
option 1-Add 2 tracks between Southern Cross-Footscray,
Add 2 extra tracks between Footscray-Werribee- to do this extra room would needed to be made between Spotswood-Footscray. The railline would dip underground from Seddon Station (which will be closed) It will then run underground to Francis street and it will come back aground there. Yarraville station will be relocated underneath Somerville Road. The former rail corridoor will have development on top. To make up for the closure of Seddon Station a new extension of route 82 to the new Yarraville Station will be made. This new route will run  down Hyde Street and into Somerville road. The route will terminate at Williamstown Road. Roue 86 will be extended to Spotswood station via Footscray, Geelong and Williamstown roads. These new trams will be put in place to encourage higher density development in the inner west, take pressure off the trains and allow Seddon Station to be closed with Minimun effects.

A new train line will be built from Laverton to Tarneit, Hoppers Crossing to Wyndham Vale via an elevated rail on Heaths road. The route will be built this way so Werribee Plaza can be served by rail. The Altona section will be duplicated and Williamstown services will run full time to the city.

My second option is to have all that except convert the Williamstown railway to light rail and connect it to the Spotswood tram. Williamstown residents would not commute via tram but interchange at Newport.

My third option is to just have that and close the Williamstown line.


I know many people disagree to trams in the west but i'm just trying to look at all the options so far.

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  Speed Minister for Railways

You seem to have overlooked  tunnelling (or bridging) from Newport to Westgate, thereby providing a direct route for trains from Geelong and Werribee into the city.

It's also a valid way to relieve bottlenecks around Footscray and North Melbourne.

This leaves the option of whether to route through to Clifton Hill or Burnley.
  Robbb01 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Shhhh!
Oh yes...i forgot to add the tunnel from Newport-City. I havnt quite decided yet though....where it will be through routed to. Maybe i could have some help with that from everyone. I've always liked to see Footscray underground....we coulod develop the land on top and put as many tracks and platforms as we want. But not everyone seems to agree
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

I believe that Southern Cross was designed with the provision for underground platforms to be added at a later date, something about the way they drilled the roof pylons into the ground.

I always thought the best way to solve the Geelong issue was to go via a tunnel from around Newport to SXS...but the money to do this would never be justified...even though it would be the optimum option.

I think that Eddington got it right on a cost-benefit viewpoint.
  Peter Spyker Train Controller

Memo: closing metropolitan railway lines is idiotic.

You would not be helping the people of Williamstown by replacing a fully functional railway line with light right.

There is no point repeating the mistakes of the 80s. St Kilda could have a damned good railway line now, if it wasn't for the mistakes of short-sighted previous governments. And it damned well needs it, because the light rail service is wholly inadequate, and far too slow.
  Robbb01 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Shhhh!
Memo: closing metropolitan railway lines is idiotic.

You would not be helping the people of Williamstown by replacing a fully functional railway line with light right.

There is no point repeating the mistakes of the 80s. St Kilda could have a damned good railway line now, if it wasn't for the mistakes of short-sighted previous governments. And it damned well needs it, because the light rail service is wholly inadequate, and far too slow.
"Peter Spyker"


It wouldn't take much longer than it does now to get from Williamstown to Newport and then swap onto a Werrbee train. If you think about it, Williamstown could be served better by light rail as it comes more often than the existing rail. Sure it doesnt hold as many people as a train but there is not many Williamstown residents. If a station was built at Newport west you could also have an increased bus services into Newport and Newport West.

However i would not want to close the Williamstown line. The only motive i have for doing it is that you can run more Werribee services in peak. I would prefer to leave it open and duplicate Newport-Footscray
  tomohawk Chief Commissioner

Location: Getting The Met to get around
Memo: closing metropolitan railway lines is idiotic.

You would not be helping the people of Williamstown by replacing a fully functional railway line with light right.

There is no point repeating the mistakes of the 80s. St Kilda could have a damned good railway line now, if it wasn't for the mistakes of short-sighted previous governments. And it damned well needs it, because the light rail service is wholly inadequate, and far too slow.
"Peter Spyker"


It wouldn't take much longer than it does now to get from Williamstown to Newport and then swap onto a Werrbee train. If you think about it, Williamstown could be served better by light rail as it comes more often than the existing rail. Sure it doesnt hold as many people as a train but there is not many Williamstown residents. If a station was built at Newport west you could also have an increased bus services into Newport and Newport West.

However i would not want to close the Williamstown line. The only motive i have for doing it is that you can run more Werribee services in peak. I would prefer to leave it open and duplicate Newport-Footscray
"Robbb01"


There's no reason heavy rail can't run at the similar frequency to light rail. You would just have to re-signal the line. It's not a huge project. Certainly cheaper than ripping up all the tracks AND overhead wires AND platforms, and rebuilding Newport to accommodate light rail.

In addition, if you're going to run Williamstown as a light rail shuttle in peak hour, why don't you just run heavy rail shuttles in peak hour? They both have the same disadvantages (that being Williamstown passengers not being able to get onto a train at NPT...
  Robbb01 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Shhhh!
Memo: closing metropolitan railway lines is idiotic.

You would not be helping the people of Williamstown by replacing a fully functional railway line with light right.

There is no point repeating the mistakes of the 80s. St Kilda could have a damned good railway line now, if it wasn't for the mistakes of short-sighted previous governments. And it damned well needs it, because the light rail service is wholly inadequate, and far too slow.
"Peter Spyker"


It wouldn't take much longer than it does now to get from Williamstown to Newport and then swap onto a Werrbee train. If you think about it, Williamstown could be served better by light rail as it comes more often than the existing rail. Sure it doesnt hold as many people as a train but there is not many Williamstown residents. If a station was built at Newport west you could also have an increased bus services into Newport and Newport West.

However i would not want to close the Williamstown line. The only motive i have for doing it is that you can run more Werribee services in peak. I would prefer to leave it open and duplicate Newport-Footscray
"Robbb01"


There's no reason heavy rail can't run at the similar frequency to light rail. You would just have to re-signal the line. It's not a huge project. Certainly cheaper than ripping up all the tracks AND overhead wires AND platforms, and rebuilding Newport to accommodate light rail.

In addition, if you're going to run Williamstown as a light rail shuttle in peak hour, why don't you just run heavy rail shuttles in peak hour? They both have the same disadvantages (that being Williamstown passengers not being able to get onto a train at NPT...
"tomohawk"


I didn't think about all the work that would have to be done...
  Metro Transit Minister for Railways

Location: Error.
Error.
  tomohawk Chief Commissioner

Location: Getting The Met to get around
Why do all the tram routes have to be inter-connected with the rest of the system? Why cant the Williamstown shuttle be a shuttle and run from Williamstown to Newport with a small facility to house and maintain a couple of trams?

How many trams do you think would be needed to run effective shuttles from Williamstown Pier (I see no reason why it cannot go there, opens plenty of windows for a St Kilda type scene) to Newport?


Metro.
"Metro Transit"


No reason you couldn't do this with Heavy rail. It would be prohibitively expensive to convert that section to light rail, when you could re-signal and run heavy rail shuttles. 4 3-car trains should be enough to run a 5 to 10 minute service. No work would need to be done at Newport, however a third platform could be installed if it would simplify things
  Metro Transit Minister for Railways

Location: Error.
Error.
  tomohawk Chief Commissioner

Location: Getting The Met to get around
Why do all the tram routes have to be inter-connected with the rest of the system? Why cant the Williamstown shuttle be a shuttle and run from Williamstown to Newport with a small facility to house and maintain a couple of trams?

How many trams do you think would be needed to run effective shuttles from Williamstown Pier (I see no reason why it cannot go there, opens plenty of windows for a St Kilda type scene) to Newport?


Metro.
"Metro Transit"


No reason you couldn't do this with Heavy rail. It would be prohibitively expensive to convert that section to light rail, when you could re-signal and run heavy rail shuttles. 4 3-car trains should be enough to run a 5 to 10 minute service. No work would need to be done at Newport, however a third platform could be installed if it would simplify things
"tomohawk"

I agree a third platform would make things so much easier, but I cant see there would be any room to build one, unless the road way on the East side of the station was narrowed a bit.

Failing that, I think the only option would be to sink the station underground and do it that way?


Metro.
"Metro Transit"


It might be possible to turn platform 1 into an island platform and use the current Pl 2 (will be pl3) as a terminating platform for WIL services, but it would require substantial reworking. I'm wondering if it would be feasable to put "South Newport" station just past the junction... probably too far to walk to change trains though.
  xtrapolis954m Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere in HBE
Right, my turn…

Let's nuke (metaphorically speaking) Newport & the Altona link, get a high-intensity light-rail service operating, maintained in Newport Workshops. This would speed up Werribee services, provide a better service to the people of Altona/Williamstown (unless they want to go towards Werribee) & reduce the total number of movements in the Newport area, thus reducing pressure of the signallers faced with nearly 30 movements an hour. This would speed up the Werribee line, not only as the Altona loop is bypassed (thus saving 8 minutes & roughly 2 kilometers) but also as the 40kph turnouts at Newport would be abolished & the entire alignment can be straightened, possibly to 80kph, & may also lead to benefits for trains operating on the gauge.

Thoughts?

Cheers, Lachlan.
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
Truth be told, I think the easiest solution would be to shuttlize the Williamstown line (Heavy or Light rail, who cares?) and then duplicate the Altona Loop. It's there for a reason - a Werribee stopper running express between Laverton and Newport will take 32 minutes to North Melbourne. Conversely a Geelong train will only take 24 minutes on the same section, if it runs express Werribee to North Melbourne.

Normally this wouldn't be much of a problem, but remember that Footscray-Newport, after the 80% rule is applied, can only handle a train every 3 minutes, and Newport-Werribee (express) can only have one train every 5 minutes after he same 80% rule is allowed for.

Provision of the Altona Loop allows a Geelong train to overtake a Werribee train - treat it as a reallllllly long passing loop, that just happens to run on a different alignment.

If we were to abolish the Altona Loop we would also need to provide four tracks from Laverton to Altona Junction. I think it'd make more sense to duplicate the Loop and add flyovers at each end - but that's just my opinion.
  xtrapolis954m Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere in HBE
The thing is, though, you have clearance issues with the paralleling streets (you would need to rip up the existing track; move it & then put in another one if you were to duplicate it) & intersecting streets (something about no new tracks over roads – thanks union!). There would be the room to duplicate between Westona & Laverton, and for some parts between Altona Junction & Seaholme, but it would be of little benefit as the 20-minute service – in both directions – would not be able to be significantly increase frequencies.

Cheers, Lachlan.
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
I think Williamstown service should have full time service to city (Flinders Street) and then make Werribee railway corridor as two tier service.

• Werribee service to use express route and go express from Newport to Footscary and express to North Melbourne and stops all stations to Flinders Street.
• Laverton service: stopping all stations

Note it more likely the state government will upgrade the Williamstown service to a full time service to the city then downgrade it to just a shuttle services from Williamstown to Newport.

Note if they down grade it and most people in Williamstown would be unhappy with the state government because of this.

Now the state government has the plan for the future for transport for this great state of Victoria, they should act on this plan and start the following projects straight away:
• Regional link from West Werribee to Sunshine which I fully support
• Laverton project

It’s time for action and which I mean by action the state government  should deliver the goods that were in this transport plan.
  tomohawk Chief Commissioner

Location: Getting The Met to get around
Urgh, here we go.

So, how do you propose we run Werribee expresses, Laverton Stoppers, and Williamstown trains full time through Newport to North Melbourne with acceptable frequency and reliability on all lines? And that's just if the Tarneit link goes ahead. If it doesn't, add Geelong express trains into that mix, too.

I do like the idea of all those trains running into the city, but the fact is this isn't something we can just do tomorrow. The only real hope of getting it to be reliable is to stop all trains all stations NPT - NME.
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
Urgh, here we go.

So, how do you propose we run Werribee expresses, Laverton Stoppers, and Williamstown trains full time through Newport to North Melbourne with acceptable frequency and reliability on all lines? And that's just if the Tarneit link goes ahead. If it doesn't, add Geelong express trains into that mix, too.

I do like the idea of all those trains running into the city, but the fact is this isn't something we can just do tomorrow. The only real hope of getting it to be reliable is to stop all trains all stations NPT - NME.
"tomohawk"


Under state transport plan the Geelong express trains will run on the new regional link, so that takes Geelong service from the Werribee railway corridor.

So because of this there should be enough room for the following:
• Werribee service to use express route and go express from Newport to Footscary and express to North Melbourne and stops all stations to Flinders Street.
• Laverton service: stopping all stations
• Williamstown trains full time to the city stopping all stations
  tomohawk Chief Commissioner

Location: Getting The Met to get around

Under state transport plan the Geelong express trains will run on the new regional link, so that takes Geelong service from the Werribee railway corridor.

So because of this there should be enough room for the following:
• Werribee service to use express route and go express from Newport to Footscary and express to North Melbourne and stops all stations to Flinders Street.
• Laverton service: stopping all stations
• Williamstown trains full time to the city stopping all stations
"melbtrip"


a) Please stop typing "Footscary". It's Footscray.

b) I will believe the transport plan when I see the line open.

c) Until then, we still have to deal with Geelong trains running via Newport.
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange

Under state transport plan the Geelong express trains will run on the new regional link, so that takes Geelong service from the Werribee railway corridor.

So because of this there should be enough room for the following:
• Werribee service to use express route and go express from Newport to Footscary and express to North Melbourne and stops all stations to Flinders Street.
• Laverton service: stopping all stations
• Williamstown trains full time to the city stopping all stations
"melbtrip"


a) Please stop typing "Footscary". It's Footscray.

b) I will believe the transport plan when I see the line open.

c) Until then, we still have to deal with Geelong trains running via Newport.
"tomohawk"


Williamstown trains service should allowed to be run full time to the city as a stopping all stations service.

I do not believe that state government would down grade the Williamstown trains service so I becomes a full time shuttle service between Newport and Williamstown.

It more likely hood that state government would make Williamstown trains services a full time service to the city and to downgrade it to a shuttle service full time.
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
The thing is, though, you have clearance issues with the paralleling streets (you would need to rip up the existing track; move it & then put in another one if you were to duplicate it) & intersecting streets (something about no new tracks over roads – thanks union!).
"xtrapolis954m"

Big deal. Sounds like we're afraid of a bit of extra work! Wink

And it's not a case of adding new crossings, just duplicating current crossings. I dunno how that fits in with Union standards.

There would be the room to duplicate between Westona & Laverton, and for some parts between Altona Junction & Seaholme, but it would be of little benefit as the 20-minute service – in both directions – would not be able to be significantly increase frequencies.

Cheers, Lachlan.
"xtrapolis954m"

If the line were duplicated between Altona Junction and Laverton, then it would be feasible to run up to 15 trains per hour in each direction - though I'm not proposing that many, yet!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, Melbtrip-
I don't actually expect you to read the remainder of this post, but I would appreciate it if you did. And don't feel bad if you don't understand something. It's okay to ask questions; often better than making false statements and looking like an idiot.

Anyway...

After reading through your most recent posts, I wish to remind you of the usefulness of the excel add-on I sent you. Didn't that prove that your timetable is simply not possible with a high level of TPH?

1) I am trying to prove that it isn't feasible to run a high level of service unless Werribee trains run Stopping-All-Stations to Newport. Newport to Footscray will then become the main pinch-point.

2) You are, unfortunately, right in that it is unlikely that the State Government will "downgrade" the Williamstown service. But that doesn't make it a good decision. Until there are twice as many tracks from Newport to North Melbourne, it will mean that in order to provide a better service between Newport and Werribee, Williamstown will have to become a sacrificial lamb.

3) The Laverton project is a good idea; I'm glad we agree on something. But it doesn't increase the number of trains we can run between Newport and Footscray, it just frees up a few paths which are then consumed by the Werribee stoppers - if they run direct then more time is required between them and a Geelong express.

4) The Reigonal Rail Link between West Werribee and Deer Park is not a good idea, for a number of reasons. Paramount among them is that while it will free up track capacity for Werribee and beyond, there are very few people on this forum who believe that there will be room for the extra trains from Sunshine to the city (regardless of the rail tunnel). Also, duplication of the Altona Loop should be a heckuvalot cheaper and faster!

5) Tomohawk is right - if/when the Tarniet Link happens is irrelevant, because it does not exist NOW. The VTP website says "short-term" but that is relative - "short-term" could mean "in the next 100 years" compared to "in the next 1000 years". If it does happen, I don't expect a cut ribbon until maybe 2020 - which leaves 12 years that still need an upgraded timetable that has room for the Geelong trains!
  Metro Transit Minister for Railways

Location: Error.
Error.
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
Or... why can't it be left as it is? if it works now, it will work in the future. Don't fix something that is not broken.


Metro
"Metro Transit"

Good point, except that we're looking at increasing capacity on the line, so we can see more choochoos run. Of course, we tell everyone else that our motive is to relieve overcrowding... Razz

Aside from all else, without actually checking I'm under the impression that it is commonplace in the current timetable to break the 80% rule of headways, which is known worldwide to watch reliability and punctuality drop exponentially.
  Metro Transit Minister for Railways

Location: Error.
Error.
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
Does the Williamstown line really need an increase of capacity? I mean in terms of urgent works needed across the network I would have put works on the Williamstown line as fairly low in terms of urgency.

Do Williamstown line trains get really packed at all?


Metro.
"Metro Transit"


I think Melbtrip is the only one asking for increased capacity on the Williamstown line. The rest of us are decreasing it's service in order to increase Werribee and Altona services.

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