Diesel Fumes "Too Much" 4/4/09

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taggy Chief Commissioner

Location: At Fassifern watching double Garratts.

This is an article from the Illawarra Mercury this weekend.

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/news/local/news/general/coal-trains-clog-wollongong-air/1478174.aspx

What do we think. Could it be a number of PN's 82's are becoming ready for overhaul or is it time for newer, cleaner locomotives to make an appearance? These people should consider themselves lucky that the good old ALCOS aren't pulling the coalies anymore if they think that picture is smokey  Laughing

http://www.freewebs.com/nsw442/photogallery.htm

This photo belongs to Chris Nelson. ^

 
TE2815 Minister for Railways

Location: Mission control Minto or Thirlmere

Just put the age old Damn NIMBYs comment into the Mercury, with the added comment Bet they would be complaining more if 500+ coal trucks were going up and down the local roads.

Evil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very Mad

 
TBP Minister for Railways

Location: Singleton

Stuff em. Diesel drivers keep putting on a show  Very Happy

 
luznug Banned

Location: Banned

If i can't smoke on a train then trains should not be able to smoke. Laughing

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/06/27/stories/2008062752450700.htm

Stone India Ltd’s in-house R&D setup has designed and developed a pantograph (a power collecting trolley) to be used in locomotives deployed for experimental run of double stack container trains being planned for the proposed dedicated freight corridor, according to company sources.

The experimental run is to take place shortly in certain sections under the East Coast Railway.

The new series of pantograph, called Omniversal Intelipanto TM, has been tested and cleared by the Research Design & Standards Organisation (RDSO) of the Indian Railways, say the sources, adding that the experts from Japan, the funding country for the proposed freight corridor, too, have approved the equipment.

Big challenge

The major constraint in running high speed locomotives with double stack container trains is the increase in what is called centenary height from six metres to 7.5 metres. To balance such a high reach pantograph in double stack containers moving at a high speed in adverse wind condition has been a big challenge for all global suppliers.

The Kolkata-based Stone India Ltd, which has been catering to the requirement of the Indian Railways for more than 76 years and has introduced many critical systems for the Railways in partnerships with foreign companies, hopes to export the new series of indigenously-developed pantographs to countries planning to use electric traction for running double stack container trains, add the sources.

 
elementalpro Train Controller

Location: Sutherland Shire.

i was playing soccer today at Jannali oval (near the railway)

and a coalie went past,

i got distracted by it to see which locos they were, the lead was an 82 and i think more 82's trailing. but it was pouring out heaps of smoke aswell. and then the smell of the diesel hung around for a couple of minutes

 
Chufffa Locomotive Fireman

bring in the 85/86 class, just kidding

 
taggy Chief Commissioner

Location: At Fassifern watching double Garratts.

Coal trains coming out of the Port encounter grades in which they must power up. If they dont like it, they should not live so close to the railway - it was there first by the way.  WinkLaughing

I like the idea of bringing back the 85/86 class locos on the south coast coalies but there is one realllly big problem with that! BUT, then they would be too noisy.....  Rolling EyesVery Happy

 
whitbomb07 Junior Train Controller

Location: Newcastle/Valley Heights

The pic looks a bit suss. How often do you see white/light grey diesel exhaust?

If they have a better idea for moving the coal I'd love to hear it.

Diesels the only way to go. I even drive a diesel car (i30), and boy do I love the torque!!! It even won the 2007 Green car of the year award.

Anyway back to trains. They really need to get over themselve's or move.

Regards

Daniel

 
GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.

Easy to get rid of the diesel exhaust. Replace each pair of double 82s with triple 60s or sextuple 53s. No worries  LaughingLaughingLaughing

 
cdinoz Station Master

Location: Under the Thumb

whinge whinge f***ing whinge  Rolling Eyes

it will be a sad day when diesel locos are no longer used, no doubt largely due to morons like this calling up the EPA to have a moan.

Someone tell them to go back to their idiot box

- miss_x

How about we take all the diseasels out of action - and throw all the coal via road.

See how long it takes the Nimby's to scream "Please bring the trains back - the trucks are clogging our atmosphere......"

 
Junction box Deputy Commissioner

Location: newy

Most of the 82 in the Hunter are fine, its probably just the one pic, there isnt many 86s left so unless they wanna push the coal themselves they can forget it, coal is king in the economy at the moment.

 
Fireman Dave Chief Commissioner

Location: Shh, I'm hiding

The pic looks a bit suss. How often do you see white/light grey diesel exhaust?

- whitbomb07

If a 2 stroke diesel engine (GMs) is a bit tired, they will blow white smoke like that after idling for a period of time, the smoke will smell oily rather than diesely too. Since the pic only shows 1 loco blowing smoke I'd say this is the case.

 
vdan Train Controller

Curious how the story came about because it's all based on quotes from one couple. Maybe it started as an offhand, mild complaint about it being a bit smokey. Then a journo desperate to fill column inches coaxed a more strident complaint from them, and blew it up even further so "Mr and Mrs Simpson annoyed by occasional smoke" becomes the sweeping "Coal trains clog Wollongong air". Wouldn't surprise me if in reality the so-called NIMBYs were happy to receive an explanation and get on with their lives, but the media has to paint everything as a conflict.

Maybe one day Will Simpson or Maria Simpson will Google their names, find this thread and give us the backstory Very Happy

 
8041 Junior Train Controller

The only NIMBYism I see here is the "its not happening in my backyard so tough luck".  I bet if you all were getting your backyard bbqs smoked out by defective and polluting locomotives you wouldnt be so dismissive.

There is nothing "suss" about the photo. What you think they went and lit a fire or something over there to produce the smoke and defame poor PN?

That is a disgusting display from an obviously poorly maintained and/or driven loco. If that is what it is like on the grade out of the inner harbour then what does it do on the way up the escarpment or up the blue mountains? Not to mention it was an empty. How does it go when its pulling a full load?

PN dont give a crap. They got the locos for a pittance will run them into the ground then blackmail the gov to fix or replace them by saying it is "uneconomic" and threatening to walk away. Filthy scum.  I dont care if they are hauling the national jewels no one should be able to foul peoples air like that and get away with it.  Fine them heavily the same as they do to polluting truckies, cars and industry.  Hell even backyard burnoffs are banned these days.

Just a few links to show why people would be worried.
http://www.abc.net.au/health/minutes/stories/2008/02/06/2155690.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1658115.stm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070911092135.htm
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=24580

 
KRviator - Moderator Moderator

Location: Up the front

8041, you can pull your head in any time now...

As Fireman Dave explained, some loco's will blow a bit of smoke if they've been idling for a while. This is completely normal, and disappears when they've been under load and had time to warm up.

I dare say you should have a look at the exhaust coming out of your car at a time where the engine and exhaust manifold are cold. You'll probably see something very similar.

That is a disgusting display from an obviously poorly maintained and/or driven loco.

- 8041

Geez, I'm glad we've got you on site. Poorly maintained? Got proof? Poorly driven? Got proof?

If that is what it is like on the grade out of the inner harbour then what does it do on the way up the escarpment or up the blue mountains? Not to mention it was an empty. How does it go when its pulling a full load?

- 8041

Weeeelll, it is an 82, so not as good as a 90 or a 92...Ohhh, you meant the exhaust, sorry...Well, by then the engine and exhaust will have warmed up to operating temperature, so the loco will put out less particulate emmissions than the semi trailer you'll drive behind today.

PN dont give a crap. They got the locos for a pittance will run them into the ground then blackmail the gov to fix or replace them by saying it is "uneconomic" and threatening to walk away. Filthy scum.

- 8041

Of course you've conveniently overlooked the hundreds of millions of dollars PN is investing in new state of the art locomotives and wagons, aren't you? The 92's, 83's and 73's are brand-spankers, as are the 300-something NHYH's they've brought online in the Hunter Valley in the last couple of years, the thousand wagons they'll have in Queensland, not to mention the 81 and 90 class refurbishment programs they've got running at the moment. Not to mention the 13 PN class and hundred-somethign 3-packs that take thousands of trucks of Queensland roads too. But that doesn't fit your tree-huggin hippie agenda so you "forget" about them.

I dont care if they are hauling the national jewels no one should be able to foul peoples air like that and get away with it. Fine them heavily the same as they do to polluting truckies, cars and industry. Hell even backyard burnoffs are banned these days.

- 8041

Only issue is, a loco does that only while it's warming up. Once up to temp it's generally a very clean engine, and more so, heavy diesels tend to run a lot cleaner than your average truck engine in the suburbs.

 
jd4980 Chief Commissioner

Location: Grafton

LOL i dunno whats scarier or funnier, the fact some joker with a "name" of 8041 would make such comments on this topic or that he actually might believe his own ramblings that this lone photo and article IS a big deal without really knowing what he's talking about.

Just another case of ill informed academics, NIMBY's, Greenies and general do-gooders having a say and being heard rather then being told to shut the smeg up and stop making things hard for people trying to do their jobs.

 
MBAX Chief Commissioner

Location: Mostly the Imperial

Last year a Helensburgh resident complained about ARG 31 class noise levels to the EPA. I can tell you that the EPA take complaints VERY seriously and can make life difficult. Don't dismiss lightly.

 
jd4980 Chief Commissioner

Location: Grafton

Last year a Helensburgh resident complained about ARG 31 class noise levels to the EPA. I can tell you that the EPA take complaints VERY seriously and can make life difficult. Don't dismiss lightly.

- MBAX

Too true MBAX. Here in Grafton one clown managed to stop crew changes in Grafton, because run in run out of the couplers stopping in dyno was unacceptable, the squeel or brakes stopping on the air was not acceptable either. We lost the battle and now have to change crews out of town mostly, day and night. While we lost the battle, we won the war, he's now complaining about how much more noise we make roaring through town full tilt, also there seems to have been lots of dogs and tresspassers on the line near his place too in the last 6 months Wink  I think ARTC have finally told him to smeg off.

 
taggy Chief Commissioner

Location: At Fassifern watching double Garratts.

Lets lighten things up a bit here.

When a human emits smelly fumes there is a saying something alongs the lines of "You need a pull through with a wire brush!" Maybe, 8211's insides need a good clean out!  Laughing

jd4980, I also laughed at 8041 as the 80's were sooooo kind to the environment...NOT!  Laughing

However, I thank both Fireman Dave and KRivator for explaining the possible reasons for the problem.  Clap

 
8041 Junior Train Controller

KR

Nothing but spurious justification for illegal air pollution.

You dont work for Pacific National do you?

I dont care what the causes were it is wrong to inflict your diesel fumes and smoke on poor folk trying to have a barbie in their backyard.

Thats why we have the EPA. Or would you prefer that we just pollute the environment at will? I really cant believe that in this day and age we have such dare I say neanderthal attitudes to the issue of air quality. Did anyone bother to look at the articles I referenced? Any comments?

 
jd4980 Chief Commissioner

Location: Grafton

Any comments?

- 8041

Yeah, you've just removed all doubt your a dropkick.

EPA, please, just another waste of space beurocratic department trying to justify their existance by making people who want to advance our society for the better, miserable and preying on simple city dwellers that believe the propoganda put in front of them.

What exactly do you do for a living? Let me guess, some sort of academic, or pencil pushing nerd that also has no understanding of what goes on outside ? Ever been outside the city ? Guess what we do have trees in our country, smeg loads of them actually and they're doing their jobs of controlling air quality just fine, same as they have since the beginning.

 
alltrainzfan Chief Commissioner

Location: At Many of Places Yet Nowhere

KR

Nothing but spurious justification for illegal air pollution.

You dont work for Pacific National do you?

I dont care what the causes were it is wrong to inflict your diesel fumes and smoke on poor folk trying to have a barbie in their backyard.

Thats why we have the EPA. Or would you prefer that we just pollute the environment at will? I really cant believe that in this day and age we have such dare I say neanderthal attitudes to the issue of air quality. Did anyone bother to look at the articles I referenced? Any comments?

- 8041

You know what mate? The way you're going, let's just ban everything which has exhaust. That's not just cars and trains, but that includes coal stations, airplanes, trucks and anything with exhaust, because they're "illegal". I'm sure that'll make your point clear.

It's not illegal. If it's illegal, then it wouldn't be operating in the country today. Simple. Is it banned? No. Is it illegal? No. Not under any law passed by the State and Federal Governments, nor the Australian Constitution, nor International Laws or treaties.

The articles that you referenced are beside the point and completely irrelevant.

If you're so concerned, start a climate change extremist group which will take all cars, trucks, ferries and trains off the road. If the 82 is emitting illegal fumes, then I'm sure that everything else which emits fumes are illegal, so we shouldn't drive cars anymore. LaughingWink

KRviator and Fireman Dave explains very clearly about the situation. He is an experienced driver who actually works with the trains themselves, and knows what he's talking about, not an environmental extremist who wants this banned and that banned. If you want them banned, find the alternative to shift material, let alone shift yourself when you need transportation from Point A to Point B, because it all has exhaust thus they're illegal, unless you walk (from Sydney to Wollongong would be a bit far-fetched don't you think?). Laughing

To reiterate:

That is a disgusting display from an obviously poorly maintained and/or driven loco.

- A user

A poorly maintained loco? Sweet, every vehicle on the road today is poorly maintained because they all have exhaust. Therefore there's no definition of "well maintained".

If that is what it is like on the grade out of the inner harbour then what does it do on the way up the escarpment or up the blue mountains? Not to mention it was an empty. How does it go when its pulling a full load?

- A user

It goes like any locomotive. Just with added power to go up the grade.

PN dont give a crap. They got the locos for a pittance will run them into the ground then blackmail the gov to fix or replace them by saying it is "uneconomic" and threatening to walk away. Filthy scum.

- A user

I know!!! They are the worst transport company!!! They're investing in green machines which emit less emissions than all previous locomotives. Do you believe it is PN's interest to increase fumes? If it is, then I'd hate to know what you think of every truck company in the World - they're much worst...oh hang, much better infact. Yet PN is scum? Do they have the money to replace every locomotive in their fleet with new ones? You can find the money and alternatives, otherwise don't claim they're not giving a damn. Money doesn't fall off the trees. Costs for new environmentally friendly locos are expensive, and require many investments and profits to afford.

I dont care if they are hauling the national jewels no one should be able to foul peoples air like that and get away with it. Fine them heavily the same as they do to polluting truckies, cars and industry. Hell even backyard burnoffs are banned these days.

- A user

Yep, chuck them in jail too. Wink It's despicable, and everyone in this world who owns a vehicle should be fined and in jail too because all vehicles emit exhaust.

Btw 8041, shouldn't the loco 8041 be scrapped? It's an old, leaky Alco, back from the 1970-80s, with lots more emissions. It should be destroyed Exclamation

Back to the article, any petrol consuming machine will emit emissions such as that, especially when at a stop, standstill, cold engines, up a grade, more power etc. Nothing unusual, and nothing too much. The 82s are modern and amongst the more environmentally friendly locomotives, and trains emit much less emissions than trucks racing down the Hume Highway etc.

 
luznug Banned

Location: Banned

Hello Kids i thought i would use the internet for what it is designed for..

Finding facts not KR's corporate spin LaughingLaughing

"Eyes for Transport"

Rutges Cargo has boosted its environment program with the delivery of its first low emissions ‘green' truck.

Investment in the vehicle is part of the European air cargo trucking and security transport specialist's wide-ranging scheme to reduce its carbon footprint.

By the end of 2008, all of Rutges' Euro 2 trucks will have been phased out and the 200+ vehicles in its fleet - from small vans to mega trailers - will be at least Euro 3, with the majority compliant with Euro 4 and 5 emissions standards.

All new vehicles entering the company's fleet will meet Euro 5 emissions standards, reducing emissions by 75% - 80% compared to older vehicles.

The company's investment in double-deck trailers is also helping customers to absorb the increasing cost of transportation, as well as making a considerable contribution to protecting the environment. The mega trailers carry up to 66 Euro pallets, 50% more than single deck trailers.

Within the next five years, Rutges Cargo has also made a commitment to run all of its vehicles on alternative fuels like LPG and bio-fuels. Standard engines in the company's current fleet are not all ready for bio-fuels, but these will be progressively converted.

While the network of LPG fuel stations throughout Europe is now quite extensive, there are fewer bio-fuel stations across Europe. However, Rutges Cargo believes this does not present a huge problem due to its vehicles' 1,000 litre fuel tanks and 3,000 km range.

The company is also working on initiatives to reduce ‘empty running' of its fleet, and a €500,000 investment in advanced capacity planning software is helping to improve the efficiency and utilisation of the fleet and increase on-time performance. The company has already seen a 20% reduction in the number of empty vehicles.

http://www.eyefortransport.com/content/rutges-cargo-deploys-its-first-%E2%80%98green%E2%80%99-truck

So Trucks are becoming a cleaner option then Rail on some routes.

Did anyone bother to listen to this from the general site:

This is a very interesting interview from the former Liberal Party member and speechwriter for former environment minister Robert Hill.

He has also been an industry lobbyist, consultant and spin doctor.

Part One http://www.themonthly.com.au/tm/node/1527

Part Two http://www.themonthly.com.au/tm/node/1526

The fact that the pollution obsessed Gunzuls are very aggressive in there defence makes one wonder what agenda some RP's are really pushing.
Rolling Eyes

 
KRviator - Moderator Moderator

Location: Up the front

KR

Nothing but spurious justification for illegal air pollution.

- 8041

Illegal is it? Oh my golly gosh, you'd better warn the EPA. Oh, right, these NIMBY's probably already did and got told to sod off. Actually, you'd better get a copper at every intersection in the country, and fine those illegal goddamn nazi-facist, environmentally-vandalising truckies, who belch out diesel particulate every time they change gears. What's that skip? That's normal for a diesel engine? So it ain't illegal? Well bfancy that, hey? 8)

You dont work for Pacific National do you?

- 8041

Nah mate. I've just got "Trainee Driver, Pacific National" in my signature for a lark. I don't really work for 'em. 8)

I dont care what the causes were it is wrong to inflict your diesel fumes and smoke on poor folk trying to have a barbie in their backyard.

- 8041

OMGZOROZ!!!!111 Shocked  I'm having a barby soon, so you mean to tell me I've gotta stop every motorised vehicle in a 5 mile radius so I don't have a transient "uncomfortableness" on my BBQ? Get a grip. Or a life. So it happens a few times a week, big deal. If it happened every day for hours at a time there might be cause for complaint. As it happens, it doesn't, therefore, these NIMBY's (who most likely brought there after the railway line went in) should put up and shut up.

Thats why we have the EPA. Or would you prefer that we just pollute the environment at will?

- 8041

That's not what I said, what I said was these are not necessarily problems, but issues that happen when you  start powering up with a "cold" engine. And something that could have been forseen when buying a house next to a highly-trafficked railway line.

Of course the other option is we set every loco to idle not below 4 notch so they'll stay warm, but then you've got perhaps a thousand locomotives across the country all sitting there idling at 50% power just to stay warm so we don't upset a couple of NIMBY's (and 8041) a couple of times a week.

I really cant believe that in this day and age we have such dare I say neanderthal attitudes to the issue of air quality.

- 8041

Call it what you like. I'm calling it a practical approach. Did they build their house there before the railway line? No? Then they really have no grounds for complaint, do they? They knew the railway was there and still chose to buy/build there.

Did anyone bother to look at the articles I referenced? Any comments?

- 8041

No, and you're a fool. How's that?

KRviator and Fireman Dave explains very clearly about the situation. He is an experienced driver

- awsgc24

I'm not, Fireman Dave is. I'm just a lowly trainee. But getting there. Laughing

Hello Kids i thought i would use the internet for what it is designed for.. Finding facts not KR's corporate spin

- Luznug

Why does everyone think I'm a spin doctor when I come out and actually say something positive about PacNat? Rolling EyesLaughing

So Trucks are becoming a cleaner option then Rail on some routes.

- Luznug

Of course they are, no point running a train for a couple of pallets. A truck will always win Sydney-Walgett.

BUT[/i] where they are operating in parallel, on a level playing field, even the most unsightly, enviromentally-unfriendly locomotives out there today (80 Class?) would be more efficient than the cleanest and greenest trucks over the same corridor.

Steel wheels on steel rails have something like 10% of the rolling resistance of rubber on road. Couple that with the ability to double stack, load up an 80' wagon with two 40' boxes at 20 tonnes each and you've got 4 semi trailers worth of freight sitting there on one wagon. Or two if the boxes are heavier, nonetheless the effect is the same.

If you don't believe me, just look at Adelaide-Perth and Adelaide-Darwin where rail has something like 90% or thereabouts of the freight task.

EDIT: Fixed typo in F D's name...

 
luznug Banned

Location: Banned

KR what you don't quite understand about Private Corporations are..

The CEO and Board Members come first.

The Share Holders Come Second

Middle Management will cover their asses some they come third

The Mum and Dad Share Holders come fourth

And the loyal worker always cops in the neck or lucky lucky last.

I like your passion and loyalty to Pac Nat but they care even less about Citizens rights, Communitys and the EPA.

That's why some RP members rub you up.

IF Pac-Nat and ARTC are looking to the future then electrics (as much as i hate them on a Gunzul level) should be leading the charge in Australia Rail.

 

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