RRL Project - West Werribee / Southern Cross

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kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Well the Feds have chipped in  $ 3.2m and Brumby on 774 Radio said today State will fund the rest and that , work to start late this year and to be completed within 4 1/2 years which seems ambitious. Lets say they get it done by the by 2014 - 15 that would be great result . Coupled with electrification to Sunbury (funded by State) by 2012 - 13 will make a great improvement to Northern Group services and VLP services from South west, West and North .
 
Nightfire Chief Commissioner

Location: Gippsland
Is there any detailed scope of works for this project ?

So far we have herd

*2 track railway from Southern Cross Station to West Werribee
(most of It possibly high speed class 1 track)

*A new platform 15 &16 at Southern Cross Station

*Rebuild of Sunshine Station

* A new bridge over the Maribyrnong River

*Use of disused tracks from South Kensington to Southern Cross Station ?

*New station at Tarneit

Talk that Bendigo trains won't get delayed be suburban trains ?

What's going to happen at Footscray ?
 
MelbourneCity Chief Commissioner

Work is to start on platforms at Southern Cross before the year's end.

Various TV News bulletins tonight showed an animation of a Velocity crossing a new bridge over the Marybronong River. Looked good, even for an artist's impression.

I don't know the track layout particularly well from Southern Cross, but I assume there is a right of way to South Kensington which can be resumed for this line?
I suppose they will have to widen that cutting at Footscray. Footscray will be quite complicated.

I Assume the plan is for the metro tunnel to go ahead, with the Watergardens/Sunbury electric services diving under, in to new underground platforms at Footscray. This obviously would free two platforms for regional trains.
Is that the intention? Obviously the tunnel is not starting any time soon, so perhaps much larger works are required at Footscray.

Be great once trains for Bendigo, Ballarat, Geelong and beyond are on separate tracks from metropolitan services. I hope the line is built for 160kph.
 
Nightfire Chief Commissioner

Location: Gippsland


I Assume the plan is for the metro tunnel to go ahead, with the Watergardens/Sunbury electric services diving under, in to new underground platforms at Footscray. This obviously would free two platforms for regional trains.
Is that the intention? Obviously the tunnel is not starting any time soon, so perhaps much larger works are required at Footscray.

- MelbourneCity


The planed tunnel Is from Dynon/South Kensington to Domain then Caulfield
 
duttonbay Minister for Railways

Be great once trains for Bendigo, Ballarat, Geelong and beyond are on separate tracks from metropolitan services. I hope the line is built for 160kph.
- MelbourneCity

Where is the new station at Tarneit to be built? Will this be considered a Metropolitan or V/Line station?
 
DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

Talk that Bendigo trains won't get delayed be suburban trains ?
- A user


Only by suburban trains to Sunshine, then by Geelong, Ballarat and Melton passenger trains and slow freight trains beyond there.
 
aussiebbq Assistant Commissioner

Location: Ballarat, Australia
There is no room for another track, (or another two tracks) between Sunshine and South Kensington as it is now. Some major work (major being reconstrution of not only the station but the roads, land, buildings also) around Footscray station would be needed and some great $ would be needed. Myself I can't see how it will be done, even if V/line used tracks running through Tottenham yard between Footscray and South Kensington will be very hard, after all this is why the line was built to Dynon running under Footscray.
 
Nightfire Chief Commissioner

Location: Gippsland
There is no room for another track, (or another two tracks) between Sunshine and South Kensington as it is now. Some major work (major being reconstrution of not only the station but the roads, land, buildings also) around Footscray station would be needed and some great $ would be needed. Myself I can't see how it will be done, even if V/line used tracks running through Tottenham yard between Footscray and South Kensington will be very hard, after all this is why the line was built to Dynon running under Footscray.
- aussiebbq


I think they will have to use Bunbury Street Tunnel to get through Footscray, but before that can happen the DoI will have to build a new freight passage through the area for ARTC (that use the existing tunnel now)
 
The Vinelander Chief Commissioner

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Idea  Something that hasn't been considered which was pointed out to me by an insider is where the line will diverge towards Tarneit just past Deer Park, it will cross Robinsons Rd, presumably south east  of the Womens Prison, then abruptly meet the recently opened Deer Park 4 lane freeway by-pass.

There was no forward planning in the construction of the by-pass and consequently the freeway will need to have a new overpass built, or there will have to be a tunnel built under same.

A further note, although I'm going to benefit  Embarassed more than most by this much anticipated rail infrastructure project, it even makes my compulsory early retirement age increase to 67 worthwhile, there will be no 160kph running from Sunshine to SCS.

As I've previously pointed out, it takes from a standing start at Sunshine, until around the Robinsons Rd crossing for a VLocity to reach 160kph.

Mike.
 
freightgate Chief Commissioner

Location: Albury, New South Wales
A question from the border please.  Will the new line being built from SSC to West Werribee also have electrification so as to provide an alternate path from West Werribee to the city via Tarneit and Sunshine ?

This makes perfect sense to me. Connex (as it is presently) could then terminate at West Werribee and passengers for Geelong could change at that location.

Having regard to electrification on the cross metro line to Sunshine would permit more flexibility in the connex side of the network also.

Bill
 
freightgate Chief Commissioner

Location: Albury, New South Wales
I think they will have to use Bunbury Street Tunnel to get through Footscray, but before that can happen the DoI will have to build a new freight passage through the area for ARTC (that use the existing tunnel now)
- Nightfire


The plan does not require use of the Bunbury St tunnel as I understand it. However, the route is likely to crowd the approach and departure tracks to the North Dynon area from the northern side.

Bill
 
Nightfire Chief Commissioner

Location: Gippsland
I think they will have to use Bunbury Street Tunnel to get through Footscray, but before that can happen the DoI will have to build a new freight passage through the area for ARTC (that use the existing tunnel now)
- Nightfire


The plan does not require use of the Bunbury St tunnel as I understand it. However, the route is likely to crowd the approach and departure tracks to the North Dynon area from the northern side.

Bill
- freightgate


Well how will the line get through Footscray ?
There's like no room to put two extra tracks through the station.

Id say the whole railyards area around North Melbourne will change with redundant little used parts of track that were once part of the Melbourne Yard Hump / Spencer Street Yard (West Tower) removed to make way for this new track and the proposed "E Gate" development.
 
alstom_888m Chief Commissioner

Location:
From Sunshine - Footscray we are likely to see the RRL cut through Tottenham Yard (which is used a lot less than in previous times, if at all) then I can only assume a tunnel will be carved under Footscray. There is a disused double track line from Footscray to Southern Cross, to the south of the current suburban line. It then runs west of the suburban line, behind the stabling sidings at North Melbourne. Could quite easily be restored and connected to Southern Cross platforms 15 and 16. Problem is, how do you connect them to the current regional platforms? New flyover?
 
aussiebbq Assistant Commissioner

Location: Ballarat, Australia
A question from the border please.  Will the new line being built from SSC to West Werribee also have electrification so as to provide an alternate path from West Werribee to the city via Tarneit and Sunshine ?

This makes perfect sense to me. Connex (as it is presently) could then terminate at West Werribee and passengers for Geelong could change at that location.

Having regard to electrification on the cross metro line to Sunshine would permit more flexibility in the connex side of the network also.

Bill
- freightgate


Hell No!

The whole reason for this new track is to get Connex trains and vline trains off the same line.
 
duttonbay Minister for Railways

The whole reason for this new track is to get Connex trains and vline trains off the same line.
- aussiebbq

Does that mean that the new Tarneit station will only be served by V/Line trains? (I have asked this question before, and received no answer)
 
fast01 BUTTSCRATCHER!

Location: Somewhere your not.


There was no forward planning in the construction of the by-pass and consequently the freeway will need to have a new overpass built, or there will have to be a tunnel built under same.
- The Vinelander
It should be a simple Road over rail bridge, the bypass seems to be laid on an embankment anyway so its a simple measure of cutting out the required earth, insert road deck girders and there you.
With that said though I agree (shock horror) that it is a lack of forward planning that a bridge wasn't provided.
 
wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
There is a disused double track line from Footscray to Southern Cross, to the south of the current suburban line.
- alstom_888m

It isn't quite disused, a few broad gauge freights use it ("broad gauge freight!" I hear a few people exclaim).

It runs from the bridge over the Maribyrnong River to Simms Street Junction, then heads north-east, while the main SG line goes east. It continues on the angle until it reaches the back of South Kensington station, then runs parallel to the suburban lines east, rising upgrade to be beside the Essendon Flyover suburban tracks. From there it splits into a few parts, the mainline ('Inside Goods Lines') is parallel to the suburban tracks to North Melbourne, the sidings to the south used to be the Melbourne Yard arrival roads. There was also the 'Outside Goods Lines' on the south side of the sidings, this is disused and disconnected at the down end.

Could quite easily be restored and connected to Southern Cross platforms 15 and 16. Problem is, how do you connect them to the current regional platforms? New flyover?
- alstom_888m

From what I have read elsewhere that is pretty much it. The new line get though Footscray on a new route, cross the river on a new bridge, run around the back of South Kensington, then will split west of North Melbourne.

One set of tracks will go to new platform 7/8 at North Melbourne then follow the lines to Southern Cross platform 15/16. The other branch will go uphill and run over the North Melbourne Flyover, then descend the other side into the current country platforms. The works will need a few additional bridges over Dudley Street to ensure separation between different types of trains.

I would assume the line via North Melbourne would be used for short distance railcar services for commuters, some passengers would want to use the loop, and there would be poor access to the carriage sidings preventing loco hauled services (unless a new / additional depot were built in the North Melbourne area).

I wonder if the new track will be dual gauge from Sunshine to enable passenger services from the North East to avoid the Bunbury Street tunnel and shunting in Dynon?



The name of the project seems to have changed. It was first called Regional Rail Link (RRL) now it seems to be Regional Rail Express (RRE).
 
The Vinelander Chief Commissioner

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The name of the project seems to have changed. It was first called Regional Rail Link (RRL) now it seems to be Regional Rail Express (RRE).
- wongm


The mob that re-built the Bendigo line traded as Regional Rail Link so that may have caused issues with naming of this project, possibly leading to the name change to RRE.

Mike.
 
bramt Deputy Commissioner

The works will need a few additional bridges over Dudley Street to ensure separation between different types of trains.
- wongm


Should be easy, stumps from the previous bridges that served Melbourne Yard are still there (on the north side at least) right next to the other bridges.

What speed is the track South Ken-Sunshine going to be? Will it actually give a timetabled decrease in journey time to Bendigo, or just reduce the likelihood of a delay?
 
SN7 Deputy Commissioner

One of the massive advantages of this project will be the greater flexibility given to V/Line , the new platform 15 & 16 at Southern Cross will be signalled to allow turnback working, a problem with platform 13 & 14 at the moment, which are soley through platforms. An arrival 3 set vlocity will be able to divide and form separate trains, this will also eliminate Eastern services having the ridiculous South Ken empty moves, which will save many crew hours, as run around facilitys are also planned.

The Sunbury electrification and additional DMUs on order will release all H sets, to run dedicated Bacchus Marsh services, more than likely involving the entire H set fleet configured into 7 car Push Pull mode.
I would imagine looking at the layout the platform at Bacchus Marsh could be modified to incorporate a dock similar to places such as Nambour, where local trains use the dock & through use the main platform.
I would also imagine that Melton- Bacchus Marsh services will gain a 20-30 Minute off peak service once its all said & done.
 
574M - Moderator White Guru

Location: Shepparton

Does that mean that the new Tarneit station will only be served by V/Line trains? (I have asked this question before, and received no answer)
- duttonbay


No, I think the terminology is so to justify the infrastructure spending. Tarneit has always been planned as a suburban service, and will likely be an electric service, since Kevin Rudd is paying for the Infrastructure.
 
574M - Moderator White Guru

Location: Shepparton


I wonder if the new track will be dual gauge from Sunshine to enable passenger services from the North East to avoid the Bunbury Street tunnel and shunting in Dynon?
- wongm


Doubt it. Dual gauge track, I am told, is speed limited to 60kph.  Not fast enough, if its new track, why does it have to be slow?



The name of the project seems to have changed. It was first called Regional Rail Link (RRL) now it seems to be Regional Rail Express (RRE).
- wongm


Observant.
 
574M - Moderator White Guru

Location: Shepparton
One of the massive advantages of this project will be the greater flexibility given to V/Line , the new platform 15 & 16 at Southern Cross will be signalled to allow turnback working, a problem with platform 13 & 14 at the moment, which are soley through platforms. An arrival 3 set vlocity will be able to divide and form separate trains, this will also eliminate Eastern services having the ridiculous South Ken empty moves, which will save many crew hours, as run around facilitys are also planned.
- SN7


Run round for 15/16? That's interesting.


The Sunbury electrification and additional DMUs on order will release all H sets, to run dedicated Bacchus Marsh services, more than likely involving the entire H set fleet configured into 7 car Push Pull mode.
I would imagine looking at the layout the platform at Bacchus Marsh could be modified to incorporate a dock similar to places such as Nambour, where local trains use the dock & through use the main platform.

I would also imagine that Melton- Bacchus Marsh services will gain a 20-30 Minute off peak service once its all said & done.
- SN7


Do Melton and Bacchus Marsh have the revenue traffic to warrant 20-30 minute off peak service? Does anyone know the daily traffic figures for these stops?
 
duttonbay Minister for Railways


Does that mean that the new Tarneit station will only be served by V/Line trains? (I have asked this question before, and received no answer)
- duttonbay


No, I think the terminology is so to justify the infrastructure spending. Tarneit has always been planned as a suburban service, and will likely be an electric service, since Kevin Rudd is paying for the Infrastructure.
- 574M


Thanks. As one of the objects of this exercise is to remove contention between suburban and V/Line trains, where will the split between this traffic be? Will the Tarneit sparks share trackage with the Geelong and Ballarat trains as far as Sunshine?
 
kuldalai Chief Commissioner

1. With 15/16 at Sxs realistically what is likely to be provided is  220m long platforms to hold up to 8 car V/locity trains. Two way signalling in both platforms and in and out from Franklin St. But only one way in and out off the Viaduct tracks account junction complexity, overlaps , goods lines etc . Also with close proximity of running road to plat 15, splits and joins only likely in 16 for safety reasons. As for loco run arounds doubt it will be provided for, too expensive and disruptive to other traffic in area .
Electrification of 15/16 probably only needed and justified for major race meetings at Flemington at this stage if at all initially.

2. RRL is extra two tracks West Werribee through to Southern Cross non electrified throughout for exclusive use by VLP trains. Ballarat trains join in at Deer park area, and Bendigo trains at Sunshine .  Completely separates sparks and VLP . High speed operation should be possible right into Sth ken area, like previous proposals at 115kmh !!!

3. Dual gauge unlikely in from Sunshine for two reasons the available capacity of say 22 trains per hour will be taken up completely by VLP broad gauge services to South West, West and North in peak hours; and secondly dual gauge restricts broad gauge operation to 80 kmh for safety reasons . VLP sg trains from the Nth East will already have separate sg access into Sxs via Jacana, Albion and Dynon so one does not need to introduce additional dg complexity and signalling onto RRL between Sunshine and Franklin St .

4. Kyneton/Bendigo travellers need to push for / advocate for some third line trackage beyond Sunshine towards Ginifer if VLP trains are not to get caught up behind by what will be an extended spark service to Sunbury .
 

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