The South-West Rail Link thread

 
  TinHareRailcar Junior Train Controller

Location: oz
Hi all. I want to ask a few questions about the Southwest rail link.

First of all, what were the proposed stations?
Second of all, would it be a new Camden Line?
And thirdly, why the hell was it dumped? People NEEDED that rail link, and they dumped it becuase they ( the NSW government) " Didn't have enough money". According to this video here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoSapsA_llU&feature=related, 75% of the Project was going to be funded by developers, and the remaining 25% would easily have been funded by developers. SO why on EARTH did they dump it?
Finally, what route would it have Taken? Would a new line be formed, with trains running from City- Wherever?

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  Grantham Minister for Railways

Location: I'm with stupid!
they ( the NSW government) " Didn't have enough money".  
"TinHareRailcar"


This is usually the problem, with no political will to do the work.

M
  8603 Locomotive Driver

Location: Canberra
Hi mate,

They're (NSW Govt.) delivering this project in two phases. Phase 1 is the upgrade of Glenfield station (i.e. lifts, lighting and more concrete and glass) and importantly includes grade separation of the South line and East Hills line north of the station and a new substation south of the station. The advantage of this is that these won't have to be done later. Also it includes a commuter car park which I must say they are building alot of these across the network particularly in Western Sydney.

As to why they dumped it? Who knows? They said: "not enough money" but they seem to have found $5.3 billion for the metro. I reckon they will probably begin construction when the K2R Quad works are nearing completion so that trains from Leppington (or further perhaps) don't have to queue behind all-stoppers. But that's my opinion.

The line was to have two stations. The terminus at Leppington and an intermediate station between Glenfield and Leppington, I cannot recall the name, apologies. Also, I'm not sure how much more capacity the City Circle could provide for trains to this new line. That's probably why the NSW Govt is just starting fresh with a new network (metro).

Hope that helps.
  TinHareRailcar Junior Train Controller

Location: oz
Hi mate,

They're (NSW Govt.) delivering this project in two phases. Phase 1 is the upgrade of Glenfield station (i.e. lifts, lighting and more concrete and glass) and importantly includes grade separation of the South line and East Hills line north of the station and a new substation south of the station. The advantage of this is that these won't have to be done later. Also it includes a commuter car park which I must say they are building alot of these across the network particularly in Western Sydney.

As to why they dumped it? Who knows? They said: "not enough money" but they seem to have found $5.3 billion for the metro. I reckon they will probably begin construction when the K2R Quad works are nearing completion so that trains from Leppington (or further perhaps) don't have to queue behind all-stoppers. But that's my opinion.

The line was to have two stations. The terminus at Leppington and an intermediate station between Glenfield and Leppington, I cannot recall the name, apologies. Also, I'm not sure how much more capacity the City Circle could provide for trains to this new line. That's probably why the NSW Govt is just starting fresh with a new network (metro).

Hope that helps.
"8603"



Thanks, 8603. But my point is that it takes 40 minutes to drive from Leppington to Glenfield station, so a commuter carpark might not make that much of a difference.

By the way, i think the intermediate station was to be at Oran Park.
  grog Train Controller

Thanks, 8603. But my point is that it takes 40 minutes to drive from Leppington to Glenfield station, so a commuter carpark might not make that much of a difference.  

By the way, i think the intermediate station was to be at Oran Park.
"TinHareRailcar"


Have a quick review of the geography of the area... the intermediate station is at Edmondson Park.

I think one of the reason the line has been delayed (not scrapped) is that it was committed to be finished in 2012 during the hight of the housing boom when development in the area was about to take off and would have been well and truly under way by then. Jump to 2009 and not one house has yet been built near either of the proposed stations due to the 5 years in between where housing prices slumped.

Leppington has not even been planned in detail yet or subdivided, and while Edmondson Park is ready to go and the land owners are all negotiating with developers now, it will probably be 10 years until we get action on the Edmondson Park town centre which would have sat over the station, and the associated high density development that relies on the station being there.

This is a line that serves new development, not one that serves any more than a few existing residents, so it always amuses me when people who currently live in the South West (I'm from Campbelltown) complain that they are being duped - the residents that are disadvantaged by this do not exist yet!

I think it is very important that this line goes ahead as all of the planning is based on it being there, and I agree that it will likely go ahead when the K2RQ is complete. the K2RQ was supposed to be done by 2010 originally but is now looking like 2013, so it makes sense that the SWRL ends up being pushed back by a similar amount.

That said, there is no reason why they couldn't have them BOTH finish in 2013 (other than maybe there then being twice as much track laying going on at once - skills shortages and all).

I guess the short of it is that due to the 5 year delay in developing the area, those 75% developer funds - don't exist yet!
  michinyon Chief Commissioner

You would not necessarily need a lot of extra capacity at the city circle for the SW Link.

There are a lot of different ways you could arrange it,   but the idea would be to have some of the existing trains which terminate at Revesby,  Liverpool,  or Glenfield  to be extended to originate and terminate at Leppington instead.
  ivahri Train Controller

Grog,

I'm sorry but you are incorrect that the demand isn't already there- take a drive like I do every day down Camden Valley Way & Cowpasture Rd & you will see how many people travel from this area. Existing suburbs include Hoxton Park, Horningsea Park & Carnes Hill, and Oran Park is being cut up as we speak. Traffic is already hopeless, that is why the 4 laning of Camden Valley Way to Cowpasture Rd is also underway- the station at Leppington would serve a lot of people already there.

I still say the line should be extended to Rossmore (where the proposed storage yards will be), then in the next phase swing around towards Oran Park to serve Camden & Narellan (taking traffic off Narellan Rd & people from Campbelltown station), and then swing north to follow the Northern Rd through Luddenham towards the western line near Penrith. Flat country, easy engineering, and more importantly providing a link between three major CBDs- Liverpool, Campbelltown & Penrith. Unfortunately designers seem to be transfixed on the Sydney CBD being the be all & end all of employment generation... which it isn't.

Cheers,


Richard
Thanks, 8603. But my point is that it takes 40 minutes to drive from Leppington to Glenfield station, so a commuter carpark might not make that much of a difference.  

By the way, i think the intermediate station was to be at Oran Park.
"TinHareRailcar"


Have a quick review of the geography of the area... the intermediate station is at Edmondson Park.

I think one of the reason the line has been delayed (not scrapped) is that it was committed to be finished in 2012 during the hight of the housing boom when development in the area was about to take off and would have been well and truly under way by then. Jump to 2009 and not one house has yet been built near either of the proposed stations due to the 5 years in between where housing prices slumped.

Leppington has not even been planned in detail yet or subdivided, and while Edmondson Park is ready to go and the land owners are all negotiating with developers now, it will probably be 10 years until we get action on the Edmondson Park town centre which would have sat over the station, and the associated high density development that relies on the station being there.

This is a line that serves new development, not one that serves any more than a few existing residents, so it always amuses me when people who currently live in the South West (I'm from Campbelltown) complain that they are being duped - the residents that are disadvantaged by this do not exist yet!

I think it is very important that this line goes ahead as all of the planning is based on it being there, and I agree that it will likely go ahead when the K2RQ is complete. the K2RQ was supposed to be done by 2010 originally but is now looking like 2013, so it makes sense that the SWRL ends up being pushed back by a similar amount.

That said, there is no reason why they couldn't have them BOTH finish in 2013 (other than maybe there then being twice as much track laying going on at once - skills shortages and all).

I guess the short of it is that due to the 5 year delay in developing the area, those 75% developer funds - don't exist yet!
"grog"
  MBAX Chief Commissioner

Location: Mostly the Imperial
Any easy solution to the Narellan Road problem would be RailCorp buying out or leasing the Glenlee Line. Upgrade Springs Road and you have a transport hub for Narellan and Camden out of Glenlee with a direct link to the City. Plenty of room for bus interchanges and car parks there too.

But no-one wants to know.
  Athol Chief Train Controller

Location: Within sight of the Newcastle St bridge over the Main North, Cardiff NSW
I still say the line should be extended to Rossmore (where the proposed storage yards will be), then in the next phase swing around towards Oran Park to serve Camden & Narellan (taking traffic off Narellan Rd & people from Campbelltown station), and then swing north to follow the Northern Rd through Luddenham towards the western line near Penrith. Flat country, easy engineering, and more importantly providing a link between three major CBDs- Liverpool, Campbelltown & Penrith.
"ivahri"

Irrespective of whether it goes down to Narellan or not, joining the western line would also provide a coal route from Lithgow to Port Kembla to tie in with the completion of the Maldon to Dombarton line, which has been seeing some serious interest recently.
  newington Chief Commissioner

Location: Here, very occasionally.
Just out of curiosity...

why does the poll say 89% no
                               10% yes

What  happens to the remaining 1%
  Oldfart Chief Commissioner

Location: Right base for BK 11R
Grog,

I'm sorry but you are incorrect that the demand isn't already there- take a drive like I do every day down Camden Valley Way & Cowpasture Rd & you will see how many people travel from this area. Existing suburbs include Hoxton Park, Horningsea Park & Carnes Hill, and Oran Park is being cut up as we speak. Traffic is already hopeless, that is why the 4 laning of Camden Valley Way to Cowpasture Rd is also underway- the station at Leppington would serve a lot of people already there.

I still say the line should be extended to Rossmore (where the proposed storage yards will be), then in the next phase swing around towards Oran Park to serve Camden & Narellan (taking traffic off Narellan Rd & people from Campbelltown station), and then swing north to follow the Northern Rd through Luddenham towards the western line near Penrith. Flat country, easy engineering, and more importantly providing a link between three major CBDs- Liverpool, Campbelltown & Penrith. Unfortunately designers seem to be transfixed on the Sydney CBD being the be all & end all of employment generation... which it isn't.

Cheers, Richard
"ivahri"


That's my 'territory' as well. Partly agree that the demand is there from those existing areas, although (apart from Oran Park, which is several Km away) they were developed some years ago before any serious consideration was given to the SW Link, and they are a bit to the north of it rather than surrounding it. Many commuters from those areas that do use rail currently park and ride at either Holsworthy or Warwick Farm, effectively making them quasi-Liverpool stations. My understanding is that an extension of the T-way to the SW Link is also part of the deal, which should give better bus options to it from several of those suburbs.

On the other hand I believe what Grog is saying about the delayed development and sourcing of developers funds is correct. Which is why I'm optimistic about it being completed, particularly since there is a commitment to build all the facilities at Glenfield to enable it to go ahead.

As for extensions, the existing areas beyond Rossmore are undeveloped and probably will remain so for a while yet. Had Badgery's Creek airport been going ahead you would almost certainly have seen an extension up between its two parallel runways to a terminal station, giving a reasonable rail connection with the existing Sydney Airport. As you say, that area is relatively easy to engineer. I doubt the same is true, however, of an Oran Park/Camden line, which passes through somewhat more awkward country. My preference for Camden would be a Glenlee option, although I believe Camdenites would actually resist it as they would fear it might destroy the "English village" feel of the place.

As Minchinyon relates, the SW Link is not all that problematic regarding loading up the City Circle as it really only involves extension of services on lines that are not yet at their full capacity. My preference would have been for a full "Clearways' style operation with all South Line services originating from Leppington and cross-platform transfers, with only a couple of minutes waiting, at Glenfield with Airport and Campbelltown Express Line services. The 'bumpf' produced for the SW LInk however indiacted a mix of South Line and via Revesby services. The latter have somewhat greater growth potential as they can tap into the quad past Revesby and be run into Sydney Terminal if CC capacity is exceeded (although several peak services could be accommodated by going through the Circle, terminating at Central and being stabled during the off peak at Mac'town.)

The same is not true of the NW Link, which would barely be able to handle more than 4 tph without another route being provided through to the city (CBD Link, NW metro or whatever). I know I'm in a minority here in supporting a city Metro, but I see it as the real, long term solution to opening up the capacity at the core of the transport system to accommodate much more patronage on multiple lines, particularly initially from the NW and west.
  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong

Leppington has not even been planned in detail yet
"grog"

I think you find it has. The display I saw even had street names on main roads on the plans, divided into 3 'areas' Leppington North with the plans showning 12000 dwellings... and was only released for development by the NSW Gumnut last month, Leppington South roughtly andther 12000 dwellings and Leppington South with about 3000 dwellings.

The plans were on a public display sometime. Wont be too long before (if not already) North Leppington will see bulldozers... and no adequate transport facilities.
  Crazy-D Chief Train Controller

What  happens to the remaining 1%
"newington"

Rounding most likely with the percentages being rounded down.

In addition to Edmondson Park, there is a small estate slowly popping up towards the south called Ingleburn Gardens. This estate would only have 250 houses plus a school and aged care facility(?). The line is set to cut right through the estate.
  Oldfart Chief Commissioner

Location: Right base for BK 11R
Just out of curiosity...

why does the poll say 89% no
                               10% yes

What  happens to the remaining 1%
"newington"


Why does it ask whether the SW Link should have been dumped? It hasn't been. Stage 1 is going ahead and stage 2 has been postponed, but has never been cancelled.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
The writeip in the RailCorp page in MX magazine mentions a (one) flyover at Glenfield. I was under the impression that there were two flyovers, one north and one south of the station.

The Map in the same Mx showed SWRL trains going to the Y-link; CBD via Granville and CBD via Sefton.
  KymN Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The writeip in the RailCorp page in MX magazine mentions a (one) flyover at Glenfield. I was under the impression that there were two flyovers, one north and one south of the station.
"awsgc24"

You are right.  The major project assessment documentation shows a flyover north of Glenfield (stage I - up East Hills over Main South) and one to the south (both SWRL lines over the Main South and the SSFL. (stage II).  The southern one - the Leppington branch is the more complicated.
  jaseee Chief Train Controller

The writeip in the RailCorp page in MX magazine mentions a (one) flyover at Glenfield. I was under the impression that there were two flyovers, one north and one south of the station.

The Map in the same Mx showed SWRL trains going to the Y-link; CBD via Granville and CBD via Sefton.
"awsgc24"


Well actually it was CBD via East Hills, as opposed to via Sefton. You can see it here:
http://www.cityrail.info/news/xpress/pdf/CityRail_Xpress_108.pdf
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney

The line was to have two stations. The terminus at Leppington and an intermediate station between Glenfield and Leppington, I cannot recall the name, apologies. Also, I'm not sure how much more capacity the City Circle could provide for trains to this new line. That's probably why the NSW Govt is just starting fresh with a new network (metro).

Hope that helps.
"8603"


The intermediate station is on former Army base land, and to commemorate this station is named after a battle in which WWII Australians fought, namely Bardia, which is in Libya in North Africa.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
The writeip in the RailCorp page in MX magazine mentions a (one) flyover at Glenfield. I was under the impression that there were two flyovers, one north and one south of the station.

The Map in the same Mx showed SWRL trains going to the Y-link; CBD via Granville and CBD via Sefton.
"awsgc24"


Well actually it was CBD via East Hills, as opposed to via Sefton. You can see it here:
http://www.cityrail.info/news/xpress/pdf/CityRail_Xpress_108.pdf
"jaseee"


Quite so! More clear if I has said CBD via Regents Park.
  am134 Locomotive Fireman

Looking at the diagram it seems that all services will originate from both Leppington and Campbelltown/Macarthur...

thus suppose 30mins frequency on the Cumberland Line, Glenfield is set to have a Cumberland Line service every 15mins...

If East Hills frequency is set to 4tph, Glenfield is set to have 8tph to City via East Hills in the offpeak.

Then we have the South Line trains, suppose 30mins frequency, we would have train every 15 at Glenfield.

So I suppose

Cumberland Line = 4tph
South Line = 4tph
East Hills Line = 8tph (at Glenfield junction)

which I believe is a bit overkill in the offpeak. I really think that the Cumberland Line trains can just originate from Campbelltown, not much for a short change at Glenfield for people on the SWRL. Considering from Campbelltown to Merrylands the journey is duplicated, it does seem just a tad overkill...

Well the reason why I've come up with the numbers is that I do firmly believe that Macarthur residents deserve at least 4tph to East Hills, especially when smaller stations such as Padstow and Riverwood (i.e. smaller than Campbelltown) get 6. The current 2tph scenario is pathetic and downright insulting. Especially when they've said that the SWRL will receive 4tph to East Hills Line, I sincerely hope that the Campbelltown Line (which has a higher population density) will receive at least the same level of service.

The Western Suburbs lines (Cumberland and South) could do with just 2tph, providing a City service for Casula and above of 4tph which is better than the 2tph they receive now.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Didn't know about the Leppington-Blacktown trains!  I wonder if they will ever materialise.
  Oldfart Chief Commissioner

Location: Right base for BK 11R
Didn't know about the Leppington-Blacktown trains!  I wonder if they will ever materialise.
"simonl"


I think you're right. Have always wondered why Clearways is promoted as keeping the lines separate, but the SW Link material has a mix of South and via Revesby services running from it. As for the Cumberland services going from there, I think that might be journalistic licence to make sure the average punter knows they will be able to take that route from Leppington somehow.

My prreference would be for a simple, 'pure Clearways' operation with cross-platform transfers at Glenfield. All South line could come from Leppington, all Cumberland from Campbelltown and all Airport/Sydenham services from Macarthur. Mostly separated lines, clockface services, and regular stopping patterns. Peak pattern up to 8-4-4/8. Off peak pattern preferably no less than 4-0-4/0.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
My prreference would be for a simple, 'pure Clearways' operation with cross-platform transfers at Glenfield. All South line could come from Leppington, all Cumberland from Campbelltown and all Airport/Sydenham services from Macarthur. Mostly separated lines, clockface services, and regular stopping patterns. Peak pattern up to 8-4-4/8. Off peak pattern preferably no less than 4-0-4/0.
"Oldfart"

At first, I thought that to get the cross platform interchange would require flyovers on both sides of the station, but they're building that anyway.  So yeah, that sounds like a good idea.

The alternate would be the cheaper option of sending all the Revesby trains to Campbelltown and all the Liverpool trains to Leppington.  That means you don't need a flyover on the north side of the station.  Which moves the Cumberland line.
  Oldfart Chief Commissioner

Location: Right base for BK 11R
My prreference would be for a simple, 'pure Clearways' operation with cross-platform transfers at Glenfield. All South line could come from Leppington, all Cumberland from Campbelltown and all Airport/Sydenham services from Macarthur. Mostly separated lines, clockface services, and regular stopping patterns. Peak pattern up to 8-4-4/8. Off peak pattern preferably no less than 4-0-4/0.
"Oldfart"

At first, I thought that to get the cross platform interchange would require flyovers on both sides of the station, but they're building that anyway.  So yeah, that sounds like a good idea.

The alternate would be the cheaper option of sending all the Revesby trains to Campbelltown and all the Liverpool trains to Leppington.  That means you don't need a flyover on the north side of the station.  Which moves the Cumberland line.
"simonl"


Sounds fair. I suppose there might be not much in whether Glenfield to Mac/C'town or Glenfield to Leppington might have a bigger catchment of passengers wanting to go to Parra/B'town. It might come down to which turnback/s can deal with all the relevant services better (Leppington alone or C'town and Macarthur combined), which requires more trains to operate and/or which blends into other service patterns better.

At the other end of things, I notice one of the Cumberland services already extends to Quakers Hill, which suggests that might be a useful operating model for all Cumberland services (turning back at wherever the double track ends to supplement City bound services out of Richmond).

We haven't mentioned (non-Lidcombe bound) Bankstown line services and my assumption is they would continue to turn back at Liverpool.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Sounds fair. I suppose there might be not much in whether Glenfield to Mac/C'town or Glenfield to Leppington might have a bigger catchment of passengers wanting to go to Parra/B'town. It might come down to which turnback/s can deal with all the relevant services better (Leppington alone or C'town and Macarthur combined), which requires more trains to operate and/or which blends into other service patterns better.

At the other end of things, I notice one of the Cumberland services already extends to Quakers Hill, which suggests that might be a useful operating model for all Cumberland services (turning back at wherever the double track ends to supplement City bound services out of Richmond).

We haven't mentioned (non-Lidcombe bound) Bankstown line services and my assumption is they would continue to turn back at Liverpool.
"Oldfart"

Well, there is a case for extending to Leppington in that otherwise you would need to double change to get between Campbelltown & Bankstown, if the Cumberland line is re-routed or not operational.  I suppose there are always costs with extending services.

The advantages of the double flyover are it enables more non-city bound trips, such as the current Cumberland line.  So i guess it might be a good idea.

Perhaps running the Cumberland line properly, and extending it even as far as Riverstone in the peak would at least give the inner Richmond line a decent frequency, and City bound pax can change at Blacktown.

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