Since Hong Kong's MTR is due to take over our trains at the end of this year, and because a number of imporvements that have been promised, I wonder if they will consider platform screen doors for all undergorund stations.
MTR's metro system in Hong Kong has them extensively, possibly at all stations.
I think platform screen doors should be mandated on underground stations, for a number of reasons. They prevent anyone, including children and absent minded adults from falling off the platform and ending up in the tunnel. I beleive that not installing platform screen doors on either new or upgraded violates the spirit of the Commonwealth DDA.
If someone from Sydney wants to discuss Syndey doing the same, feel free to start a thread on the installation of platfrom screen doors on the Syndey suburban forums.
If not only we do this in Melbourne but Syndey does that same, as possibly any Australian city with underground stations, then there could be a massive joint venture order. I have some ideas about what to do.
There are a number of different types of platform screen door. They were pioneered in St Petersburg, Russia, the first station to have them installed was Park Pobedy (Cyrillic:???? ??????) in 1961. These are of the "horizontal elevator" type.
Then in 1987, the Singapore Mass Rapid transit pioneered platform screen doors in Asian rapid transit. Then in Hong Kong, in 1998, the Tung Chung line and Airport Express were the first in Hong Kong to be fitted with platform screen doors.
It appears that Westinghouse is the largest manufacturer of platform screen doors.
They also make platform edge doors, a subest of PSDs that provide a gap to allow for airflow from the tunnel, and automatic platform gates.
Other related products include media walls and automatic platform gates, quite useful for stations on curves.
The trouble with platform screen doors is that each type of train has doors at a different position and would require either lots of screen doors or fewer large ones. The cost would be very high too and it would increase dwell times at every station (even just by 5 seconds). Screen doors could work if each group had there own rolling stock running exclusively to that group (ie. Caulfield gets only Siemens, Burnley gets only Xtraps etc.) But then where to the Hitachis go?
People fall onto the tracks because of their own stupidity, it's not Connex or MTM's fault. Platforms have tactiles and a yellow line so that people will stand back from the edge to stop them selves from falling off. If they refuse to stand behind the yellow line, then they will lose balance if a train zooms past them.
Now that I think about it, Flinders Street, Flagstaff, Melbourne Central and Parliament don't actually have tactiles. Hopefully they will be done relatively soon.
MyrtoneDeputy CommissionerJoined: Feb 13, 2007 Last Visited: Jul 30, 2010 Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
The trouble with platform screen doors is that each type of train has doors at a different position and would require either lots of screen doors or fewer large ones.
Actually, there is a solution to the problem, the Italian firm of OCLAP ca offer platform dynamic doors
712M wrote:
The cost would be very high too and it would increase dwell times at every station (even just by 5 seconds).
I don't really think it would cost that much and from where did you get that information that it would increase dwell times? In fact it can reduce dwell times because passeger can judge better about where to stand.
712M wrote:
Screen doors could work if each group had there own rolling stock running exclusively to that group (ie. Caulfield gets only Siemens, Burnley gets only Xtraps etc.) But then where to the Hitachis go?
The porblem with the Comeg and Hitatich trains is the manually opened doors, which seem to be incompadible.
712M wrote:
People fall onto the tracks because of their own stupidity, it's not Connex or MTM's fault.
No, they fall because they are absent minded, not because of any (overall) mental defficiancy. They do not choose to be absent minded.
712M wrote:
Platforms have tactiles and a yellow line so that people will stand back from the edge to stop them selves from falling off. If they refuse to stand behind the yellow line, then they will lose balance if a train zooms past them.
Exactly, if platform screen doors are provided, these people will be better off. You cannot refuse to stand behind screen doors.
712M wrote:
Now that I think about it, Flinders Street, Flagstaff, Melbourne Central and Parliament don't actually have tactiles. Hopefully they will be done relatively soon.
I might hope that of Flinders Street, but it is a surface station. On underground stations, platform screen doors are a much better protection.
michinyonChief CommissionerJoined: Jan 29, 2009 Last Visited: Jan 22, 2010
I think most of the above ground platforms are not in any condition for PSDs to be installed unless they get a complete resurfacing. Anyway budget wise it is probably not the highest item on the priority list, judging by the many other things that need to be done.
By the way these are the new half-height doors that are starting to be installed on elevated stations in Singapore. Suicides and accidents (though already rare) will probably be completely eliminated, of course unless people are so determined to climb over them.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1015142/1/.html
heisdeadjimChief CommissionerJoined: May 26, 2009 Last Visited: Jul 30, 2010
Without engaging in a personal attack on the OP, this issue is the flip side of that coin that people call "double decker trains". Both great ideas in theory, never to happen in practice.
Essentially, a phyrric vision of what would never happen, without a radical revamp of the system that no one is prepared to countenance.
You may be referring obliquely to the very unfortunate incident in the Caulfield loop recently, where a passenger died after getting caught in the doors of a Comeng of a down Frankston service. I don't wish to re-boot that debate, suffice to say that the guy deliberately, certainly, fatally, forced the doors open of a moving train.
My point being, NO safety method is enough when people are determined to force doors. You'll find these proposed platform doors forced open as a train leaves. Or, people will stand in the prospective opening denying others access.
The drivers would now be responsible for activating off train equipment, how do you propose they would work?
As mentioned, on any given loop platform you'll be getting one of three variants of train, how to you determine which is which? The reason why Hong Kong works because it was designed from the outset with that functionality built in. Retrofitting it would be cost prohibitive.
MyrtoneDeputy CommissionerJoined: Feb 13, 2007 Last Visited: Jul 30, 2010 Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Why underground stations ? The above-ground ones have more wind gusts to propel the prams onto the tracks.
I think you'll find that platform screen doors are more common on underground stations.
richardlu_yy wrote:
I think most of the above ground platforms are not in any condition for PSDs to be installed unless they get a complete resurfacing. Anyway budget wise it is probably not the highest item on the priority list, judging by the many other things that need to be done.
As I said, platform screen doors are more common on undergorund stations. And in the long term they are going to save money on things like air conditioner.
heisdeadjim wrote:
You'll find these proposed platform doors forced open as a train leaves. Or, people will stand in the prospective opening denying others access.
Does this ever happen in Hong Kong or anywhere else platform screen doors are installed?
heisdeadjim wrote:
The drivers would now be responsible for activating off train equipment, how do you propose they would work?
However it works on the London Underground, the Jublee line has them.
heisdeadjim wrote:
As mentioned, on any given loop platform you'll be getting one of three variants of train, how to you determine which is which? The reason why Hong Kong works because it was designed from the outset with that functionality built in. Retrofitting it would be cost prohibitive.
Many older metro systems not designed from the outset with such functionality built in have nevertheless had platform screen doors retrofitted, it surely hasn't been cost prohbitive for them.
09expressLocomotive DriverJoined: May 26, 2009 Last Visited: Jan 22, 2010
Just because these systems work elsewhere doesnt necessarily guarantee that they will work here.
I for one would rather the money be spent on improving the network (have you seen the condition of the tracks ??) before wasting it on screens.
I still dont believe that people consider platforms dangerous.
SIMPLE= Follow the rules and you wont get hurt!!!
Do you really think that by putting up screens you will stop suicide?? They will move to another spot and fulfill there wish.
MyrtoneDeputy CommissionerJoined: Feb 13, 2007 Last Visited: Jul 30, 2010 Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Just because these systems work elsewhere doesnt necessarily guarantee that they will work here.
Excatly what differences are there that would make them unworkable here. What factors do we have that apply to us but not to the London underground or any continental European metro.
09express wrote:
I for one would rather the money be spent on improving the network (have you seen the condition of the tracks ??) before wasting it on screens.
I would count the installation of platform screen doors as an imporvement but yes, the tracks do need to be reconditioned, and in the long term, this will save running costs. It also means fewer late trains so less fining. So there will be more money to spend on things like platform screen doors.
09express wrote:
I still dont believe that people consider platforms dangerous.
Do all those people in London and Paris consider platforms dangerous, maybe not, bot platform screen doors are still an imporvement and have other advantages.
09express wrote:
SIMPLE= Follow the rules and you wont get hurt!!!
Simple? What about children and absent minded adults?
09express wrote:
Do you really think that by putting up screens you will stop suicide?? They will move to another spot and fulfill there wish.
It's not so much about suicide, but like I said before, it is about children and absent minded adults. Yes, it may stop inhumane suicide, if they want to fullfill their wish, they might do so more humanely and without disrupting the train service.
NightfireChief CommissionerJoined: Nov 05, 2008 Last Visited: Jul 30, 2010 Location: Gippsland Southern Victoria
Screens would be a great wast of money, If their a safety Issues with passengers at some platforms, station staff can be hired to keep an eye on problem passengers.
The main purpose of the screens are for temperature control Inside the platform area.
Austraila needs to stop stuffing around with different rail gauges and all go Stephenson Standard 4'8 1/2"(1435mm)
Screens would be a great wast of money, If their a safety Issues with passengers at some platforms, station staff can be hired to keep an eye on problem passengers.
Please read the posts above, I don't just station staff is enough.
Nightfire wrote:
The main purpose of the screens are for temperature control Inside the platform area.
Indeed, this is yet another reason to install them on undergorund stations, but they also have the side benefit of improved safety.
I wonder is there anyone here who has had personal experience with metro system that use these, especially older system that have recently had them retrofitted. Surely tonyp knows of some metro systems like this.
09expressLocomotive DriverJoined: May 26, 2009 Last Visited: Jan 22, 2010
Myrtone you obviously have your view on this and i have mine.
What differences? I guess that would be attitudes.
When they have saved all the money by fixing tracks then perhaps we could have grade seperation to save the idiots who dont read signs at level crossings, or maybe even fit out the entire network with 3 position signalling, plenty of things a higher priority than screens.
What improvement do they give us?
What about absent minded adults, perhaps wrap them in cotton wool? Children? who's responsible for them these days, seems to be anyone but thier parents.
So you expect a suicidal person to consider train disruption in thier choice of method.
Again tell me how much are we going to benefit from these screens?
tomohawkChief CommissionerJoined: Nov 05, 2007 Last Visited: Jul 30, 2010 Location: Inside a frog suit.
Well, perhaps we should order a large quantity of bubble wrap and just cover EVERYTHING in it, so that no one can get hurt through their own stupidity.
Personal responsibility is overrated. Why should I be responsible for my own safety, when I can just sue someone because they failed to predict my incomprehensible stupidity?
We don't need platform screen doors.
Thank you Mario, but our princess is in another Castle!
Any opinions expressed in the above post are my own, and my own only, given without endorsement nor support of my employer, unless otherwise advised.
alstom_888mChief CommissionerJoined: Aug 26, 2007 Last Visited: Jul 30, 2010 Location: Voting for freedom, voting for Liberal.
Enough money is wasted on the safety of those who are too stupid to live. Better the money is spent where is will stop late running and overcrowding.
Also, in cities where platform screen doors are used, trains have to stop to an exact position. I know of two places with these doors, Hong Kong MTR, and the London Underground Jubilee Line. Both of these I believe are run by ATO (Automatic Train Operation), not by drivers. ATO cannot be implemented while there is such thing as a level crossing, so it's not going to happen, not in my lifetime.
Just because these systems work elsewhere doesnt necessarily guarantee that they will work here.
Excatly what differences are there that would make them unworkable here. What factors do we have that apply to us but not to the London underground or any continental European metro.
09express wrote:
I for one would rather the money be spent on improving the network (have you seen the condition of the tracks ??) before wasting it on screens.
I would count the installation of platform screen doors as an imporvement but yes, the tracks do need to be reconditioned, and in the long term, this will save running costs. It also means fewer late trains so less fining. So there will be more money to spend on things like platform screen doors.
09express wrote:
I still dont believe that people consider platforms dangerous.
Do all those people in London and Paris consider platforms dangerous, maybe not, bot platform screen doors are still an imporvement and have other advantages.
09express wrote:
SIMPLE= Follow the rules and you wont get hurt!!!
Simple? What about children and absent minded adults?
09express wrote:
Do you really think that by putting up screens you will stop suicide?? They will move to another spot and fulfill there wish.
It's not so much about suicide, but like I said before, it is about children and absent minded adults. Yes, it may stop inhumane suicide, if they want to fullfill their wish, they might do so more humanely and without disrupting the train service.
What about absent minded adults? Why do we make excuses for a persons stupidity?? As far as children go, if the parent was doing their job, a child wouldn't be anywhere near the edge of the platform.
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but trains will dismember me.
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