toshi Train Controller

Location: Belmont

As for regular users, it is still a bad system that refuses to be fixed!
"AzN_dj"


 

It's always worked perfectly well for myself, much better than buying those silly Metcards all the time. I got my first card in December 2010 and have had three since, due to myself losing them. All four cards have worked perfectly fine. I honestly think the whole myki-bashing phase is just another bandwagon for people to jump aboard at present, as Today Tonight and A Current Affair haven't given the media worshiping masses anything else to be irrationally angry about. Myki is here, Metcard is gone, get over it.

 

As for my views on Short Term Tickets? I see no point in having a dedicated short term ticket. However, as has been suggested by others in this thread, why not have an return service available to visitors, where you return the card at the end of your stay and get whatever money is left on the card as a refund, minus a small fee to cover card damage etc.

 

 

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  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.

As for regular users, it is still a bad system that refuses to be fixed!
"AzN_dj"


 

It's always worked perfectly well for myself, much better than buying those silly Metcards all the time. I got my first card in December 2010 and have had three since, due to myself losing them. All four cards have worked perfectly fine. I honestly think the whole myki-bashing phase is just another bandwagon for people to jump aboard at present, as Today Tonight and A Current Affair haven't given the media worshiping masses anything else to be irrationally angry about. Myki is here, Metcard is gone, get over it.

 

As for my views on Short Term Tickets? I see no point in having a dedicated short term ticket. However, as has been suggested by others in this thread, why not have an return service available to visitors, where you return the card at the end of your stay and get whatever money is left on the card as a refund, minus a small fee to cover card damage etc.

 

 

"toshi"
So you think that the infrequent traveller should be forced to have a myki?
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

...being able to buy a ticket on a tram etc, like you can in every other city in the world...
"TheLoadedDog™"

That's simply not true. I doubt whether it was true back in 1983 even, when travelling in Italy by a suburban bus we were told "no tickets sold on board, buy a ticket at the 'newsagent' (or similar shop)", or in Switzerland, when tickets were purchased off the trams (admittedly, there were ticket machines at the tram stops).
  Revenue Chief Commissioner

You can't buy tickets on buses in the CBD of Sydney from 7am to 7pm on weekdays.
http://www.sydneybuses.info/prepay/prepay-sydney-cbd.htm

You can't get tickets on a number of bus routes in Sydney (which I suspect cover a comparable area to Melbourne's trams)
http://www.sydneybuses.info/prepay/prepay-routes.htm

So there are a lot of precedents for prepaid services both in Australia and around the world. The distinction is that in many of those cities you can get a short term ticket off system from, say, a retail agent. The question is then whether it is more appropriate to sell them something for that trip or something that will help them travel in the future. So there are two issues - prepaid services, and the range of off-system tickets. It's a subtle distinction in the debate but an important one.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
With all the technology available, we should be able to offer a short term ticket, and to have said short term tickets available on trams. Even if it means having a simple vending machine available on all trams dispensing something nothing more than a single trip ticket for a flat fee, of, say, $2 whether it be from St Patricks Cathedral to Swanston Street, or Vermont to Melbourne CBD. With, of course, Myki scanners available for pre-loaded Myki cards.
  Ballast_Plough Chief Commissioner

Location: Lilydale, Vic
I'm not entirely sure that using other countries inability to purchase tickets onboard is the best idea. Kind of reduces everything to the lowest common denominator?
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
With all the technology available, we should be able to offer a short term ticket, and to have said short term tickets available on trams. Even if it means having a simple vending machine available on all trams dispensing something nothing more than a single trip ticket for a flat fee, of, say, $2 whether it be from St Patricks Cathedral to Swanston Street, or Vermont to Melbourne CBD. With, of course, Myki scanners available for pre-loaded Myki cards.
"xxxxlbear"


The technology is there alright.  It's even been purchased with Myki.  It is purely a political decision to not have such tickets on sale.  Adelaide can manage to cope with ticket sales and validation on board moving trains so I don't buy arguments about the Myki machines being too fragile for trams.  Though it seems they couldn't be made reliable enough to talk "back to base" in real time.  Same sort of issue as Metcard there, then Wink
  Mouse Chief Train Controller

Location:
You can't buy tickets on buses in the CBD of Sydney from 7am to 7pm on weekdays.
http://www.sydneybuses.info/prepay/prepay-sydney-cbd.htm

You can't get tickets on a number of bus routes in Sydney (which I suspect cover a comparable area to Melbourne's trams)
http://www.sydneybuses.info/prepay/prepay-routes.htm
"Revenue"


Buying a ticket from the bus driver =/= Buying a ticket from an onboard vending machine on a tram.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

With all the technology available, we should be able to offer a short term ticket, and to have said short term tickets available on trams. Even if it means having a simple vending machine available on all trams dispensing something nothing more than a single trip ticket for a flat fee, of, say, $2 whether it be from St Patricks Cathedral to Swanston Street, or Vermont to Melbourne CBD. With, of course, Myki scanners available for pre-loaded Myki cards.
"xxxxlbear"


The technology is there alright. It's even been purchased with Myki. It is purely a political decision to not have such tickets on sale. Adelaide can manage to cope with ticket sales and validation on board moving trains so I don't buy arguments about the Myki machines being too fragile for trams. Though it seems they couldn't be made reliable enough to talk "back to base" in real time. Same sort of issue as Metcard there, then Wink
"Gwiwer"

Adelaide trams have validators which work with both their smart card, and with their short-trip tickets. They have both ticket vending machines and a conductor on board.
  Revenue Chief Commissioner

You can't buy tickets on buses in the CBD of Sydney from 7am to 7pm on weekdays.
http://www.sydneybuses.info/prepay/prepay-sydney-cbd.htm

You can't get tickets on a number of bus routes in Sydney (which I suspect cover a comparable area to Melbourne's trams)
http://www.sydneybuses.info/prepay/prepay-routes.htm
"Revenue"


Buying a ticket from the bus driver =/= Buying a ticket from an onboard vending machine on a tram.
"Mouse"


The customer experience is the same though. Either way, you can't pay for a fare on board.
  Revenue Chief Commissioner

I'm not entirely sure that using other countries inability to purchase tickets onboard is the best idea. Kind of reduces everything to the lowest common denominator?
"Ballast_Plough"


A counter argument is that Melbourne has actually implemented a system that is considerably less likely to rip off tourists. Let's take London - if you do two train trips in Zone 1 on the Tube then it would have been cheaper to purchase an Oyster. In Brisbane, if you do two off-peak trips in Zones 1-3 (which is smaller than Zone 1 in Melbourne), then it would have been cheaper to purchase a Go Card.

The argument that tourists will end up paying more with myki just isn't true as a general rule. Overall, they will pay a lot less. I have no doubt that people can find examples of someone who wanted to just do one trip, but as a general rule most tourists will pay a lot less than they do now.

So it's worth pointing out that while some tourists will pay more, as a group overall, they'll pay less.

Don't think that London has a short term ticket to benefit tourists - they do it to rip them off!  Smile
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Don't think that London has a short term ticket to benefit tourists - they do it to rip them off!
"Revenue"


The most infamous instance I'm aware of is of American tourists paying the full single fare to ride the Piccadilly Line between Covent Garden and Leicester Square. The surcharge on paper tickets has thus apparently been (humourously) dubbed the 'American tax'.

However, Singapore does have short-term ez-link tickets for rail - the fare is slightly higher and there is a refundable SGD 1 deposit; single-ride tickets on buses are bought with cash from the driver - money is slid into a farebox (no change!) and a small machine prints the ticket. Singapore does not have periodicals.
  Sir Thomas Bent Minister for Railways

Location: Banned
It isn't my role to defend every decision related to myki and I object to the implication that it is
"A couple of pages ago, Revenue"


Just thought I'd remind everyone of what Auntie Revenue's position is, until he comes on to defend every decision related to Myki.  It's a convenient line to trot out on the many times he gets cornered in his role to defend all of the Myki in all of his posts (whilst simultaneously trying to show off how worldly he is).

Especially the whole lack of short term tickets thing.  For example:
 I have no doubt that people can find examples of someone who wanted to just do one trip
"Revenue"
 when he doesn't realise about Skybus transfers from suburban stations - which are much more common than he thinks.  Or for people who now report having five or six Mykis due to them being in the wrong trousers.  One has a pass, the rest have a bit of money from a single trip, who'd have been happy to buy one to get them until they can use their card tomorrow.

They're apparently happy to pay a premium, too.




  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
I'm not entirely sure that using other countries inability to purchase tickets onboard is the best idea. Kind of reduces everything to the lowest common denominator?
"Ballast_Plough"


A counter argument is that Melbourne has actually implemented a system that is considerably less likely to rip off tourists. Let's take London - if you do two train trips in Zone 1 on the Tube then it would have been cheaper to purchase an Oyster. In Brisbane, if you do two off-peak trips in Zones 1-3 (which is smaller than Zone 1 in Melbourne), then it would have been cheaper to purchase a Go Card.

The argument that tourists will end up paying more with myki just isn't true as a general rule. Overall, they will pay a lot less. I have no doubt that people can find examples of someone who wanted to just do one trip, but as a general rule most tourists will pay a lot less than they do now.

So it's worth pointing out that while some tourists will pay more, as a group overall, they'll pay less.

Don't think that London has a short term ticket to benefit tourists - they do it to rip them off! Smile
"Revenue"


I am not sure what school you went to (not that I really care), or whether you passed at Mathmatics or not, but if tourists, or out-of-towners, wanted a trip or 2 on our public transport system with Myki, then they will be required to part with $6/3 for purchase of a Myli card, even before they shell out money to pre-load their card. Doesn't that put them $6/3 behind the 8 ball even before they step on a train, tram, or bus? Confused
And if they leave town, never to return, they are minus the cost of Myki card, and stuck with a useless piece of plastic that they will never use again.

I am not sure where you learnt tourism, but I find it hard to believe that, generally,  tourists will not* make more than one or 2 trips in their stay in Melbourne. Of course, there are exceptions.

I think dealing with Revenue is akin to dealing with Melbtrip at times Confused


*Edited to include the word not, which makes sense of the paragraph!

  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
London does not apply a surcharge to paper tickets.  These are sold at the advertised full fare.  Travelcard and Oyster users get a discount.  The net effect is the same however in that a short hop by bus or tube can be though of as extremely high cost per mile (or kilometre, but in London they use miles) even though the same fare can apply for a very much longer journey.  Buses operate at a standard fare for example meaning that while it might cost the equivalent of $4 to go one stop it costs the same to ride perhaps 15kms to the far end of the route.  Much the same system as a cash fare in Melbourne in fact.

The cited example of Covent Garden - Leicester Square is perhaps unfortunate in that it is the shortest distance between two adjacent stations on the tube network at barely 800 metres and is quicker to walk at surface level.  The same argument could be applied to visitors paying for a Myki, adding value and only travelling from Flagstaff to Melbourne Central.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
London does not apply a surcharge to paper tickets. These are sold at the advertised full fare. Travelcard and Oyster users get a discount.
"Gwiwer"


I admit this is correct, but I nevertheless will point out the net effect is identical.

The net effect is the same however in that a short hop by bus or tube can be though of as extremely high cost per mile (or kilometre, but in London they use miles) even though the same fare can apply for a very much longer journey. Buses operate at a standard fare for example meaning that while it might cost the equivalent of $4 to go one stop it costs the same to ride perhaps 15kms to the far end of the route. Much the same system as a cash fare in Melbourne in fact.
"Gwiwer"


Which is why zonal and flat fares don't work very well.

The cited example of Covent Garden - Leicester Square is perhaps unfortunate in that it is the shortest distance between two adjacent stations on the tube network at barely 800 metres and is quicker to walk at surface level. The same argument could be applied to visitors paying for a Myki, adding value and only travelling from Flagstaff to Melbourne Central.
"Gwiwer"


It is indeed the shortest distance, but it is apparently the favourite ride for tourists who are merely sampling the Underground. They therefore get completely and utterly shafted.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

The cited example of Covent Garden - Leicester Square is perhaps unfortunate in that it is the shortest distance between two adjacent stations on the tube network at barely 800 metres and is quicker to walk at surface level. The same argument could be applied to visitors paying for a Myki, adding value and only travelling from Flagstaff to Melbourne Central.
"Gwiwer"


It is indeed the shortest distance, but it is apparently the favourite ride for tourists who are merely sampling the Underground. They therefore get completely and utterly shafted.
"Watson374"

If all they are doing is sampling the underground, then they are treating it as a tourist ride. Given that, it's a very cheap tourist attraction...
  TheLoadedDog The Ghost of George Stephenson

...being able to buy a ticket on a tram etc, like you can in every other city in the world...
"TheLoadedDog™"

That's simply not true. I doubt whether it was true back in 1983 even, when travelling in Italy by a suburban bus we were told "no tickets sold on board, buy a ticket at the 'newsagent' (or similar shop)", or in Switzerland, when tickets were purchased off the trams (admittedly, there were ticket machines at the tram stops).
"duttonbay"


OK, well done.  I had a feeling some pedant would point out some city where you can't buy a ticket on a tram.  I suspect the other list though - the list of cities where you can would be orders of magnitude longer.  And a machine at a tram stop is every bit as good as "on a tram" for our purposes.

Ballast_Plough has it spot on when he says, "I'm not entirely sure that using other countries inability to purchase tickets onboard is the best idea. Kind of reduces everything to the lowest common denominator?"

Hell, we could replace trams with rickshaws.  Other cities have those, don't they?

Look, I'm not against smartcard systems.  I think they're great.  However Myki has flaws, and some of those flaws are the more irritating when you consider they're not even inherent to Myki - the pollies have nobbled it.

  duttonbay Minister for Railways

...being able to buy a ticket on a tram etc, like you can in every other city in the world...
"TheLoadedDog™"

That's simply not true. I doubt whether it was true back in 1983 even, when travelling in Italy by a suburban bus we were told "no tickets sold on board, buy a ticket at the 'newsagent' (or similar shop)", or in Switzerland, when tickets were purchased off the trams (admittedly, there were ticket machines at the tram stops).
"duttonbay"


OK, well done. I had a feeling some pedant would point out some city where you can't buy a ticket on a tram. I suspect the other list though - the list of cities where you can would be orders of magnitude longer. And a machine at a tram stop is every bit as good as "on a tram" for our purposes.
"TheLoadedDog™"

There were two or probably three cities in our 2008 trip where you couldn't buy a ticket on the tram. I was simply pointing out that as far ago as 1983 it wasn't possible either - and that your statement was incorrect.

If you wish to mount an argument, you don't start it off with something provably not true, otherwise all your arguments are ignored.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
For what it's worth you cannot buy a ticket on board a London tram.  On the other hand there are ticket machines at every stop which is something likely to cost the arms, legs and first-born of the entire Victorian DoT if implemented on the much larger YT network Wink
  AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69
Trams in London dont have as much coverage, as well as less stops. It's essentially pretty close to putting ticket machines on all the accessible stops, because we don't have that many accessible stops.

There are two issues being mixed up here. Purchasing on board a vehicle, and short term tickets.
With a prepaid bus service in Sydney, they will tell you to buy a ticket from a newsagent (and it is limited to a certain time, and a certain area, so it isn't too bad). But here, a bus driver will have to direct you to go to a newsagent or convenience store, regardless where you are (and there might not be one for a very large area), and on top of that, you can't actually buy a ticket when you get there either, you can only buy a card that gives you the right to buy a ticket. 

When someone who hasn't even used the system before, once you get to an unstaffed location such as a tram or a station, there is no direction whatsoever. How much does it cost to get from point A to point B? Most people couldn't tell you what the price is. But even then, it is not implied what you have to do either. It is not particularly obvious that you have to buy a Myki card, and then put money on it. A lot of people think that it's just $6 for a ticket, then when they try to buy it, the price goes up to $7. Then they take one trip, and then wonder what they are meant to do again when their ticket doesn't work.



  TheLoadedDog The Ghost of George Stephenson

If you wish to mount an argument, you don't start it off with something provably not true, otherwise all your arguments are ignored.
"duttonbay"


Would I have said what I did in a formal debating situation with an adjudicator, timekeeper, etc?  No.  I was merely using shorthand to make a point which is clear to you and me both (even if you disagree with it) in the casual environment of an internet conversation. I was assuming people would take it as intended, though, as I mentioned earlier, I did have a sneaking suspicion somebody wouldn't.  Silly of me to give the benefit of the doubt. I should remember this lesson in future, you're right:  some rivet counter will no doubt be hitting Google before my electrons are even dry on the page.
  toshi Train Controller

Location: Belmont

As for regular users, it is still a bad system that refuses to be fixed!
"AzN_dj"


 

It's always worked perfectly well for myself, much better than buying those silly Metcards all the time. I got my first card in December 2010 and have had three since, due to myself losing them. All four cards have worked perfectly fine. I honestly think the whole myki-bashing phase is just another bandwagon for people to jump aboard at present, as Today Tonight and A Current Affair haven't given the media worshiping masses anything else to be irrationally angry about. Myki is here, Metcard is gone, get over it.

 

As for my views on Short Term Tickets? I see no point in having a dedicated short term ticket. However, as has been suggested by others in this thread, why not have an return service available to visitors, where you return the card at the end of your stay and get whatever money is left on the card as a refund, minus a small fee to cover card damage etc.

 

 

"toshi"
So you think that the infrequent traveller should be forced to have a myki?
"railblogger"


 

I see it as an essential part of living in Melbourne, even if you don't travel often. I mean seriously, it's a pretty durable plastic card, that fits into your wallet easily, and costs a maximum of $6.

Don't want one? Fine, don't buy one until you need it.



What's that? You think that you shouldn't be forced to do as such? Well, how about investing in a car, or perhaps even a taxi to get you to and from your destination? Or are you going to have we going to have a whinge about taxi fares/fuel prices too?

I'll allow NOFX to sum up my feelings on these people;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuWq6v7Xg5I

  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I see it as an essential part of living in Melbourne, even if you don't travel often. I mean seriously, it's a pretty durable plastic card, that fits into your wallet easily, and costs a maximum of $6. 


Don't want one? Fine, don't buy one until you need it.
"toshi"
I actually have one already. I just can't see why we cannot make this system more user-friendly.
What's that? You think that you shouldn't be forced to do as such? Well, how about investing in a car, or perhaps even a taxi to get you to and from your destination? Or are you going to have we going to have a whinge about taxi fares/fuel prices too?

"toshi"
If the public transport system isn't user-friendly, people are going to choose this option (at least for some part of their journey).

Honestly, what is the point of buying a myki if you only travel, say, once a year?
  toshi Train Controller

Location: Belmont
I see it as an essential part of living in Melbourne, even if you don't travel often. I mean seriously, it's a pretty durable plastic card, that fits into your wallet easily, and costs a maximum of $6.


Don't want one? Fine, don't buy one until you need it.



What's that? You think that you shouldn't be forced to do as such? Well, how about investing in a car, or perhaps even a taxi to get you to and from your destination? Or are you going to have we going to have a whinge about taxi fares/fuel prices too?

"toshi"
I actually have one already. I just can't see why we cannot make this system more user-friendly.
"railblogger"


I consider not having to buy a ticket every time you go to a station as user-friendly. I also consider having a durable plastic card as opposed to a cardboard one that is susceptible to ripping/ending up horribly disfigured up as user-friendly. Just because the system lacks short term tickets, doesn't make it user-detrimental.

I've always preferred Myki over Metcard, always will. Metcard served it's time and now we have a new system that works quite well, however there are still a few bugs to iron out.

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