Old cement siding at Albion?

 
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
Thanks for persisting, David.
Driver of that up pass seemed to be overly concerned about something simple. He'd have done it with autos at stop regularly enough, without questioning it. I'd have said, "fine, you're in charge, lets go".

Neil
ngarner
Give us a break big fella ,that last post was meant to last you at least 24 hours ,not 3 minutes ,
takes me a fair while to think up this dribble.
You are correct that driver was a bit over zealous,just being a  smart smeg too ,

 so I suppose I was to a smart smeg having to quote                                                                                                                 Clause 20 of the CTC rule book  after That his memory came back.,                                                                                           He would have known all about  Reg 74(passing automatic signals at stop ) and Reg 75 (passing Home signals at stop ).
Dave

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  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

I love what this thread has become.
When I was only young on the job I loved listening to the yarns of the old blokes.
I think the social history of the railways is important, not just the yarns (the funny ones endure mostly), but how they worked and lived, and also the impact on their families and communities.
Most of this history was verbal and I think it's important to record it while we are still able, because once they depart this mortal line, it's lost.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I love what this thread has become.
When I was only young on the job I loved listening to the yarns of the old blokes.
I think the social history of the railways is important, not just the yarns (the funny ones endure mostly), but how they worked and lived, and also the impact on their families and communities.
Most of this history was verbal and I think it's important to record it while we are still able, because once they depart this mortal line, it's lost.
Lockspike
Very true Lockspike.

Sadly, it seems that few of the 'younger generation' are interested. One only has to see the decline in both the numbers posting here on RP but also WITH SOME NOTABLE EXCEPTIONS the quality of the posts. Few seem to even see the detail much less record and post it. Again there are NOTABLE EXCEPTIONS and this thread is a fabulous example. The best that I have seen in a long time.

The 'youngsters' simply have not had the mentoring or been exposed to many 'real' experiences for several reasons that come immediately to my mind in that many/most of the older/more experienced people have gone:

  • As a result of privatisation
  • Technology advances
  • Mentoring ceased over a generation ago with the onset of privatisation as nobody, myself included, told anybody anything as tomorrow they would have your job
  • Various so called 'umbrella organisations' associated with rail lament the lack of experience in the industry today. To this I say no bloody wonder. Again WITH SOME NOTABLE EXCEPTIONS come privatisation those with experience and 'get up and go' - 'got up and went' with the early rounds of retrenchments leaving ..............
  • The better people often went into consultancies and became either unaffordable or undesirable to those left.
  • Regulation by bureaucrats
  • Management by bean counters, politicians and their sycophants.
  • Lack of diversity training - no understanding of the other bloke's job, priorities or responsibilities
  • The Nanny State


Obviously there are exceptions to the foregoing so don't start quoting specific exceptions, please.

Lockspike's post has just reminded me that it was 59 years ago today (12/12/1960) that I joined the job. 1960 was still the era of:

  • Kerosene lamps
  • Staffed stations
  • Respect for the local SM as a member of the community
  • Many steam locomotives
  • Little kids who waved to engine drivers
  • Guards on trains
  • Brakevans on trains
  • Mentoring and training
  • A line of promotion
  • Paper tickets
  • Double sided carbon paper
  • Indelible pencils
  • Pens with nibs and ink
  • Fire buckets
  • Mechanical interlocking


Anybody still know the purpose of double sided carbon paper ????? Question

Glad to be out of it now ............................. Smile
  Shazam75 Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
yes I agree - the stories that are told by the men who worked the railways are a true delight to read!  And don't think it will boring for us to read as we are all enjoying it - so all you blokes out there who remember things from the wonderful times past on the Victorian Railways, share your stories!  I too have enjoyed the tales from Dave et al!  And without them, this thread would be dead!

Regards
Shelton
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
I love what this thread has become.
When I was only young on the job I loved listening to the yarns of the old blokes.
I think the social history of the railways is important, not just the yarns (the funny ones endure mostly), but how they worked and lived, and also the impact on their families and communities.
Most of this history was verbal and I think it's important to record it while we are still able, because once they depart this mortal line, it's lost.
Lockspike
When I was only young on the job I loved listening to the yarns of the old blokes.
Now I am the old blokes and  as I sit here wishing I could eat a steak ,not this bowl of semilea,                                                 the wise words of Lockspike are still ring in my scatted mind that the  social history of the railways is important, not just the yarns (the funny ones endure mostly), but how they worked and lived, and also the impact on their families and communities.
Most of this history was verbal and I think it's important to record, ,we dont send letters any more, we E mail and while the  paper document will endure, its the E-word that will be lost in history.
What if the Axis powers surrendered in the Second Would War by E-mail There would be no record of it .
Efficiencies’ have caused the human face of the rail system to disappear with less and less contact between train crew’s, and signalling staff, also with more and more signal boxes becoming automated with less and less staff and more and more locations disappearing being staffed by, well……..….Nobody.    

 
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

Anybody still know the purpose of double sided carbon paper ????? Question
YM-Mundrabilla
Ok, I'll bite; what was double sided carbon paper used for?
Was it anything like being sent to a loco to ask for a bucket of steam, or sent to the tool store for a 'long weight', or pumping sand?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Anybody still know the purpose of double sided carbon paper ????? Question
Ok, I'll bite; what was double sided carbon paper used for?
Was it anything like being sent to a loco to ask for a bucket of steam, or sent to the tool store for a 'long weight', or pumping sand?
Lockspike
Lockspike,

No doubt everyone will know traditional single sided carbon paper the purpose of which was to convey details from an original
document to a copy by means of pressure such as in a receipt book.

Double sided carbon paper had 'ink' on both sides (obviously). To put it mildly it was filthy stuff as the ink was wet and gooey. There was no way of using it without getting ink everywhere, fingers, papers, books - anything and everything one touched.

Hand written Excess Fare Tickets, Special Service Orders and other Accounting Documents with a monetary value were prepared using it. As far as I know it was supposed to be a (childish/outdated ?) precaution against fraud by alteration of the original document. Hold up the ticket (whatever) in front of a mirror and you could read both sides at once! It was still in use in 1976 when I 'abandoned' Station Accounts in favour of Wagon Operations.

Like so many railway things there was always a 'work around' - we simply got non-messy carbon from the typists and used two sheets face to face (carbon side outwards) which (we thought - even if the Auditors didn't) served the same purpose without the mess. Smile

It was real - bit like a mud hole. !!!!
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
I love what this thread has become.
When I was only young on the job I loved listening to the yarns of the old blokes.
I think the social history of the railways is important, not just the yarns (the funny ones endure mostly), but how they worked and lived, and also the impact on their families and communities.
Most of this history was verbal and I think it's important to record it while we are still able, because once they depart this mortal line, it's lost.



Anybody still know the purpose of double sided carbon paper ????? Question

YM-Mundrabilla
Double sided carbon paper, I know what that is ,It means double the mess on your hands,
personally I prefer to use the gestetner machine because you can get high on the solvent
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I love what this thread has become.
When I was only young on the job I loved listening to the yarns of the old blokes.
I think the social history of the railways is important, not just the yarns (the funny ones endure mostly), but how they worked and lived, and also the impact on their families and communities.
Most of this history was verbal and I think it's important to record it while we are still able, because once they depart this mortal line, it's lost.



Anybody still know the purpose of double sided carbon paper ????? Question
Double sided carbon paper, I know what that is ,It means double the mess on your hands,
personally I prefer to use the gestetner machine because you can get high on the solvent
david harvey
Ah, the good old days .................

There was also another machine that seemed to be used for reproducing hand written documents IIRC it largely produced output in pastel red, blue, green etc but, again, I think that the master copy was produced using carbon paper in some form it also ran on highly a 'sniffable' solvent.

Then came the Rank Xerox photocopier but one needed written approval from both the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury to use it.
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
Congratulation Shelton   After 158 posts The Old Cement Siding at Albion is still here.                                                                                We had it so good back went the Government ran the railway. Today when one train runs ,the whole Railpage is buzzing with ecstasy as if it was  your first time.

I was hoping the posts would make 100 now I am sure it can make 200 posts.Stay turned for some more tall tales from deep with in the staff exchange box, coming soon to a flat screen near you.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
Thanks for persisting, David.
Driver of that up pass seemed to be overly concerned about something simple. He'd have done it with autos at stop regularly enough, without questioning it. I'd have said, "fine, you're in charge, lets go".

Neil
Give us a break big fella ,that last post was meant to last you at least 24 hours ,not 3 minutes ,
takes me a fair while to think up this dribble.
You are correct that driver was a bit over zealous,just being a  smart smeg too ,

 so I suppose I was to a smart smeg having to quote                                                                                                                 Clause 20 of the CTC rule book  after That his memory came back.,                                                                                           He would have known all about  Reg 74(passing automatic signals at stop ) and Reg 75 (passing Home signals at stop ).
Dave
david harvey
24 hours? Sorry, never going to allow it to take that long, even allowing for re-reading numerous times.
However, I know how long it can take to draft these memories, having contributed a few to this thread, and others. By the by, Mr Harvey is the reason I'm no longer an anonymous lurker, after he posted a request for stories about staff exchanges.
Reading these posts are a joy, especially when they are an area of 'the job' that weren't personally experienced. Fair warning David, I'll give you a day or two to get the next one ready before I start pestering for more. Smile

I started to make a some notes about my time at South Dynon a little while ago when this thread started to take off. Since many are coming out of the woodwork and encouraging this type of thread, I'll work up those notes and expand on them so expect to see a new thread very soon.

Neil
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
Thanks for persisting, David.


Neil
Give us a break big NEIL ,that last post was meant to last you at least 24 hours,
not 3 minutes ,
takes me a fair while to think up this dribble.



Dave
Sorry, never going to allow it to take that long, even allowing for re-reading numerous times.
However, I know how long it can take to draft these memories, having contributed a few to this thread, and others. By the by, Mr Harvey is the reason I'm no longer an anonymous lurker, after he posted a request for stories about staff exchanges.
Reading these posts are a joy, especially when they are an area of 'the job' that weren't personally experienced. Fair warning David, I'll give you a day or two to get the next one ready before I start pestering for more. Smile

I started to make a some notes about my time at South Dynon a little while ago when this thread started to take off. Since many are coming out of the woodwork and encouraging this type of thread, I'll work up those notes and expand on them so expect to see a new thread very soon.

Neil
ngarner
You are quite correct Neil
I'M glad that you are no longer a lurker and I did request you for stories about staff exchanges for a book that I am writing, which is still going strong ,maybe another year and the automatic staff exchanger book should be ready chapters When This post reaches 200 that might do it so we will start another one . I suppose we were lucky to have worked on a railway ,took photos  took notes,had a keen interest ,so I look forward to your challenge  , the next B siding post is ready !!!!
  Shazam75 Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Here we see a X Class idling away at the GEB Siding



https://youtu.be/WGP3DzCdNpo

Regards
Shelton
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
Here is another photo of the Pilot - entering the B Siding - two Y Classes for power!  Must be a full load given its all downhill from Totty yard!
Notice the GH wagon parked on the stub ended siding - interesting.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dermis50/8579998128/in/faves-97389605@N00/
Shazam75
Can anybody tell please tell us, "Friends of the B Siding Appreciation Society" ,                                        what this staff exchange platform is doing in the paddock at the top of B siding at Sunshine???????????
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
Here we see a X Class idling away at the GEB Siding

Regards
Shelton
Shazam75
Interesting the changes made to X42 in the time between this video and my working on it, apart from the paint scheme.
The obvious ones are additional horns on the short end and those on the hood all facing the same way; hand rails the full length of the running board instead of just at the cab and end steps; dual marker lights instead of single ones; rear view mirrors for the crew; semi-permament jumper cable attached to the short hood (& presumably the other end as well) and a toilet (what luxury!) in the long hood and yet it still carries the auto staff exchanger on the drivers side, which I would have thought a bit of an anachronism by this date.
For those interested the various brake hoses are well displayed. The most central is the brake pipe, then the next one out is the main reservoir and then the two smallest are the independent brake pipes nos. 3 & 4. The additional three are required for multiple unit operation, which is why only locos carried them. The main reservoir connects the various reservoirs on the locos, boosting the capacity of these. The two independent pipes permit the driver to apply and release the loco brakes separately to the train brakes, a very useful ability.
The #3 and 4 pipes are duplicated on each side of the loco due to their location, the main two are not, for the same reason.

Neil
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
Here is another photo of the Pilot - entering the B Siding - two Y Classes for power!  Must be a full load given its all downhill from Totty yard!
Notice the GH wagon parked on the stub ended siding - interesting.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dermis50/8579998128/in/faves-97389605@N00/
Can anybody tell please tell us, "Friends of the B Siding Appreciation Society" ,                                        what this staff exchange platform is doing in the paddock at the top of B siding at Sunshine???????????
david harvey
Let's see now...
It got lost?
Someone didn't like where it was originally built?
It's a decoy(!)?
VR moved the tracks but forgot to move the platform

I reckon the last is probably the most likely of these four options, knowing the VR.

Neil
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
Here is another photo of the Pilot - entering the B Siding - two Y Classes for power!  Must be a full load given its all downhill from Totty yard!
Notice the GH wagon parked on the stub ended siding - interesting.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dermis50/8579998128/in/faves-97389605@N00/
Can anybody  please tell us, "Friends of the B Siding Appreciation Society" ,                                        what this staff exchange platform is doing in the paddock at the top of B siding at Sunshine???????????
Let's see now...
It got lost?
Someone didn't like where it was originally built?
It's a decoy(!)?
VR moved the tracks but forgot to move the platform

I reckon the last is probably the most likely of these four options, knowing the VR.

Neil
ngarner
Neil, Neil, Neil,  You are correct Neil the last is probably the most likely of these four options, ,but It isn't  correct ,you had a decent crack at it ,but in your defence I wouldn't know a 26L brake from a transition  coupler. I reckin that Shelton might have an idea. All will be revealed.
  Shazam75 Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Hi DaveI think it was used for the Overland - not sure of the finer details however.
Regards

Shelton
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
Hi Dave ,I think it was used for the Overland - not sure of the finer details however.
Regards

Shelton
Shazam75
You are correct .It was used for the Over land ,read on,                                                                        

When the up standard gauge Inter Capital Daylight (ICD)was running late and had passengers offering for the Adelaide Line, the passengers would de-train at Sunshine and board the Overland there so Overland could leave Melbourne on time and then would make an addition stop at Sunshine to pick up those passengers offering. Once the passengers had de-trained at Sunshine they would be met by the Station Master(SM) who would check their tickets and Station Assistant would help with the baggage. Checking the tickets was one thing but in reality the SM is checking them so he could place the passengers at the correct place on the platform closest to their carriage. In my time at Sunshine the down Overland always came in to Number 2 platform if it was to stop to connect with the ICD. The Overland could have anything from 14 to 20 passenger cars in its consist  with the driver having no idea were to stop for the Guards van to be on the platform , after all remember there were no radios, not even between the guard and the driver. The  Overland  would travel though the Sunshine station and travel around the left hand sweeping corner  where there facing the driver were a series of vehicle boards marked 9, 11, 13 and 15, meaning applicable to 2 locomotives hauling (the number indicated)carriages including vans. The driver would stop at the board with the corresponding number equal to the length of carriages on his train. In the event of the motive power on the vehicle board being different to what the train is actually being hauled by, the driver is to make allowances for the altered length of his train when stopping. With the new Adelaide passengers safely aboard the Guard of the Overland would give a green light to the SM on the platform who would relay the green light to the booking clerk or the station assistant who was positioned at down end of the platform at the booking office and the clerk would relay that green light to the signal-box.

The signal-man can’t see past the booking office due to the Hampshire Road over Pass The signal-man who is positioned at the Up end or the Melbourne end of the signal –box would then receive a green light signal from the booking clerk and he would walk the length of the signal-box to the down end or the Bendigo end and shine the green light out the window to the white wooden staff exchange platform.

This is where the second signal-man who works at Sunshine signal box is standing waiting to receive the green light. The second signal-man from Sunshine signal-box upon receiving the green light would turn 90 degrees to his right up the Ballarat Line to  relay the green light to the second person (SP) on the Overland that is way down the north line toward the Anderson Road level crossing. The SP has repeated the green light signal back to the signal-man and the SP has sounded a long whistle so the signal-man at Sunshine box can place No 6 home departure to proceed.  The Home Signal  wasn’t  at proceed because the Overland was sitting on the bell block and the boom barriers for Anderson Road would have been activated for up to ten  minutes .So that explains the mystery of the staff exchange platform that sat in a paddock with  another reason why  Sunshine Signal-box required two signal-men.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
Thanks for correcting my poor guesses, David
I saw those Sunshine number boards regularly and understood their general use as there are/were locations with boards set up for the same reason, Ballarat on the down comes to mind immediately. The finer details of getting the all clear from the guard to the loco and then back to the signalman to clear the signal is not something I knew about. Probably because Ararat depot crews hogged the Overdue, sorry Overland. Generally the only times Dynon crews got near that train was to either relieve the poor, weary, Ararat boys at Spencer St on arrival and deal with everything from there on or to take out the locos and do all the dirty work to get the train ready so the Ararat boys could walk up and take over the train with everything ready to go for them to depart - slackers.
The exceptions were when they couldn't get the train to Melbourne in a timely manner, not an unusual event for that train but these exceptions were for major delays beyond the norm. Then Dynon crews would meet the train somewhere, like Sunshine, and bring it the rest of the way into Spencer St. I have a feeling that I did that once.

Neil
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
Thanks for correcting my poor guesses, David
I saw those Sunshine number boards regularly and understood their general use as there are/were locations with boards set up for the same reason, Ballarat on the down comes to mind immediately. The finer details of getting the all clear from the guard to the loco and then back to the signalman to clear the signal is not something I knew about. Probably because Ararat depot crews hogged the Overdue, sorry Overland. Generally the only times Dynon crews got near that train was to either relieve the poor, weary, Ararat boys at Spencer St on arrival and deal with everything from there on or to take out the locos and do all the dirty work to get the train ready so the Ararat boys could walk up and take over the train with everything ready to go for them to depart - slackers.
The exceptions were when they couldn't get the train to Melbourne in a timely manner, not an unusual event for that train but these exceptions were for major delays beyond the norm. Then Dynon crews would meet the train somewhere, like Sunshine, and bring it the rest of the way into Spencer St. I have a feeling that I did that once.

Neil
ngarner
Thanks for having a guess, you  left the lerkers to have pity on you ,but you were brave enough at least you had a crack at it. There were locations with boards set up for the same reason, Ballarat B Box on the down comes to mind ,for the same reason so the guards van would be on the end of the platform and the same situation happened there with the conveying of a green light to give the all clear at night as the station Master would be walking up the platform and you again walk fro one end of the signal box to the other as the locos would be nearly under the Armstrong Street bridge. It least you got to run the Overland even if  was from Spencer Street to Dynon Car Sheds

dave
  billjohnston Station Master

In a similar way the up Overland would stop at Sunshine but this was a regular stop for a connection to the ICD. In this case a porter, or perhaps the second signalman, would climb the fence at the up end of platform one, holding a red flag high up once the van entered the platform for a second stop. Once the van was unloaded and the passengers for Sydney detrained from the rear carriages, he would raise a green flag to repeat the guards flag to advise the engine crew it was clear to depart for Spencer street. Inevitably the next up spark would by then be standing on the up main waiting line clear to enter the platform. 10 minutes would easily pass doing this double stop so unless the Overland was right on time, and this was unusual, it almost every day blocked the next up spark. This made the platform very busy at this time of the morning, as it was full of suburban passengers, Sydney passengers transferring to the S.G. platform and luggage trolleys attempting to do the same. There was no way the engine crew could see a guards flag from the rear of the train without the man standing in the fence to repeat it.

Bill Johnston
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
In a similar way the up Overland would stop at Sunshine but this was a regular stop for a connection to the ICD. In this case a porter, or perhaps the second signalman, would climb the fence at the up end of platform one, holding a red flag high up once the van entered the platform for a second stop.
. Inevitably the next up spark would by then be standing on the up main waiting line clear to enter the platform. 10 minutes would easily pass doing this double stop so unless the Overland was right on time, and this was unusual, it almost every day blocked the next up spark.
There was no way the engine crew could see a guards flag from the rear of the train without the man standing in the fence to repeat it.

Bill Johnston
billjohnston
There were instructions in the order book for the signalman at Sunshine to relay the Flags to assist the Guard of the  up Overland when it stopped to detrain passengers in the AM.The poor Overdue sorry Overland was a notoriously   poor runner for various reasons . In the mid 1980's the Overland was always hampered by a  procession of up trains from the Ballarat line into Sunshine. The date is 16th of April 1985 starting with our old friend at 0746 hrs,the P2 Pilot from Tottenham to B siding ;0748 hrs Up Kyneton Pass  P11 ; 0750 hrs Up Ballarat Goods B80 ; 0801 hrs Up Sunbury Pass T341 ; 0805 hrs Up Bacchus Marsh Pass P19 ; ;0809 hrs Up Ballarat Pass X31 ; ;0809 hrs Up Ballarat Pass X31 ; 0819 hrs up SG GDS 42220 ;0822 Up Kyneton Pass  P13 ;      ;0823 X35 Down Bendigo Pass :0825 Pilot from  B siding to GEB siding Newport Line Y110 ;0828 up Adelaide Goods 9130 with BL32 ;0831-0838 up Adelaide Overland 8120 with X50 and S302 ;That was when real trains ran interspersed  with the morning peak  I quite agree with Bill. Many suburban train got delayed just to squeeze in that long stop in the morning. These train times were taken nearly 35 years ago when the Overland was truely " The inter Colonial Express"            ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,AAHH How the Mighty Have Fallen
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
There was a station assistant(SA)  and a signalman at Sunshine who didn't like each other (wasn't me )for some reason . It shouldn't of mattered as they didn't live together they worked together ,and then only  when the SA had to come the the signal box for train running information. As it happened the SA was standing on the end of the No 2 platform with a trolley full of parcels for the Ballarat pass which as due . "Theres that lazy good for nothing *******so and so" Wouldn't work in an iron lung" ,to which I replied,"What too see him work ,Bring the Ballarat into No 3 platform."Well Pete jumped up threw the sticks back(that was ok because the Ballatrat hadn't hit the down approach bell block which was at tottenham ,so no  matter what we did with the points the pass would still get a green signal,2 signal protection)

I rang the station masters office and told him  about the platform change just before the train arrived whilst the other signalman laughed his head of at his Nemesis running back and for to get the parcels across the platform. We did this to him a few more times, and he didn't twig to what was going on why  we had to change platforms due to this temporary track circuit failure . (That was our excuse)                                                                          Dont get angry get even .
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
I would stand at the window in the signal- box at Sunshine and watch the trains come and go .One of the down Bacchus Marsh trains,would always have    two or three young ladies in one of the compartments of the BW cars  or BCPL carriage. These ladies would regularly waves  and even blow me kisses,I was a lot younger then . Well as it happened I decided as the train pulled in that i would make my way down to the compartment to introduce  myself to these friendly passengers. I stood roughly where I thought their compartment would be and as  the train stopped the two woman stuck their heads out of the window, "Hello Ladies" I said ,Well they both screamed  and pulled down the drop down windows. That went well I thorought. I'm not that ugly . They never waved to the signal-box again.

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