Old cement siding at Albion?

 
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
My records show that on Boxing Day 1979 the up goods off the Bendigo line that my driver and I took over at Sunbury, at 6:50pm, terminated at Sunshine. We left the train there and ran light engine, with B72 & T360, back to Dynon. This was an unusual place to terminate any train so it is quite possible that it ended up in the GEB sidings, especially with the lack of stabling sidings there. Coming from north of Bendigo, in late December, when grain, in good years, was well and truly on the move and not ending up in Tottenham but Sunshine, plus returning to the depot light, all suggest GEB. If we had terminated at Tottenham then I would have noted that location, not Sunshine. The few other times I worked a train that started or stopped at Sunshine it was a change over with another crew and the train travelled on further.

Neil

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  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
My records show that on Boxing Day 1979 the up goods off the Bendigo line that my driver and I took over at Sunbury, at 6:50pm, terminated at Sunshine. We left the train there and ran light engine, with B72 & T360, back to Dynon. This was an unusual place to terminate any train so it is quite possible that it ended up in the GEB sidings, especially with the lack of stabling sidings there. Coming from north of Bendigo, in late December, when grain, in good years, was well and truly on the move and not ending up in Tottenham but Sunshine, plus returning to the depot light, all suggest GEB. If we had terminated at Tottenham then I would have noted that location, not Sunshine. The few other times I worked a train that started or stopped at Sunshine it was a change over with another crew and the train travelled on further.

Neil
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
What a historical video Shelton has supplied showing the up pass charging through Sunshine

but even better it shows a great  shot of sunshine's B SIDING that extended thru to the Old Cement siding at Albion.

.Good to catch up with you again Neil ,give my regards to the wife and the kids'

Surely congratulation must go to Shelton for his persistence on keeping this thread alive

and knowing there must be some old kodgers out there who remember some thing about Sunshine ?

Is this   the oldest thread that has been kept going ? Titled Old Cement siding at Albion?

considering it started in May  2010  ???
  billggoorr Beginner

Further to Shelton's questions. The GEB siding was mainly served by a pilot form Tottenham through the 70's and 80's at least but in the 90's I remember seeing more direct trains to and from GEB with big power. Mainly barley was stored at Sunshine and distributed by road all over Melbourne. However some wheat was stored there and on occasions this was reloaded into trains and sent to Geelong for export. While all the pilots were "Y" class a "T" would be used for Geelong grains. The Geelong grains rarely used the Brooklyn end points to depart so the train would be assembled in the siding, run through to the "B" siding where the engine would run around and then depart for Brooklyn. I was advised that the signalman were reluctant to take out a staff and give it to the Geelong driver before he entered the GEB siding so he could exit directly to Geelong as it might take an hour before so the staff was finally deposited at Brooklyn and it might be needed before then. On more than one occasion the "T" would stall trying to get out of the siding and through the down platform, much to the annoyance of the signalman I bet. The pilots would come from Tottenham and run into the back platform and then reverse down into the GEB. To depart with empties they would use the "B" siding run around.
The video was interesting as just about everything in the picture has been swept away except the appalling state of the main lines which look just the same today despite all the work in the area.

Bill Johnston
  Shazam75 Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Well thanks to you gentlemen for bringing this thread alive and especially commenting on the workings in and round Sunshine!  Sunshine was a "hub" to say the least with lines radiating to all over Victoria.  Little did I know I was living right at the heart of all the action.  Unfortunately I missed the best years which I think were the 1960s and 1970s!

B Siding and A Siding was quite small, so the trains going here for the run-around would have been small and full of a variety of wagons.  

Very interesting to read Bill's observations on how the GEB siding was operated.  Never knew they would push back from the Back Platform and barley was deposited there.

I never saw any wagons parked near the Sunshine Goods Shed which I think was a stub-ended siding.  Does anyone recall whether any wagons/vans were unloaded there?

Regards
Shelton
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Surely congratulation must go to Shelton for his persistence on keeping this thread alive

and knowing there must be some old kodgers out there who remember some thing about Sunshine ?
david harvey
Agreed, this thread is an absolute corker, loving it.
  Shazam75 Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
My records show that on Boxing Day 1979 the up goods off the Bendigo line that my driver and I took over at Sunbury, at 6:50pm, terminated at Sunshine. We left the train there and ran light engine, with B72 & T360, back to Dynon. This was an unusual place to terminate any train so it is quite possible that it ended up in the GEB sidings, especially with the lack of stabling sidings there. Coming from north of Bendigo, in late December, when grain, in good years, was well and truly on the move and not ending up in Tottenham but Sunshine, plus returning to the depot light, all suggest GEB. If we had terminated at Tottenham then I would have noted that location, not Sunshine. The few other times I worked a train that started or stopped at Sunshine it was a change over with another crew and the train travelled on further.


Neil
ngarner
And thank you Neil for sharing your experiences - really enjoy reading all about the operations from the cab.
If others like to chip in, please feel free to do so.
Here is a photo of a grain train apparently heading to Sunshine GEB (Grain Elevators Board)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/markcarter/15161392897/in/faves-97389605@N00/

Regards
Shelton
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
I agree with Brenton , this thread is an absolute corker, loving it.as well ,I so here is some more waffle for the gunzels

 A Siding was quite small,and was a dead end extension off the back platform and was electrified so suburban  trains would terminate at sunshine in the AM and the PM.
The mainline connection for the sidings at Albion were abolished on the 15th of February 1915 and  B siding,was extended to Albion to cater for them.B siding , was quite long with a run around loop  just prior to Anderson Road and another small run around loop  in the John Darling Siding to avoid running over the weight bridge.  John Darling Siding was provided on the 26th of April 1921,  whilst the Australian Reinforcement Company (ARC) siding was provided on the 16th of march 1965.

 Interesting  reading  Bill Johnsons observations on how the GEB siding working . I worked at Sunshine in 1984 /85 occasionally barley trains from Geelong would run directly from the Newport line (Brooklyn ) into "B road" then into Number 3 road which was the back platform then set back into the Grain elevators Board GEB siding.  
If the  Pilot was coming from Tottenham and going to the GEB siding on the Brooklyn line, the Y class would come off the goods lines ,across the suburban lines then into B siding ,where the loco would run around and now be on the Bendigo end. The shunter ,in his obligatory shorts with smudgy tattoos on his calves (that's why I gave the funny comment on Neils post  because I could still see him at the post phone)  shunter would tell me that they were ready , so its make the road, signal to proceed then the shunter relays the proceed signal to the next shunter on the ground, to the next shunter on the loco . This all depend on the length of the rake of wagons  but from memory up to 30 X 4 wheeled wagons was common. The pilot would push these wagons to the GEB siding.
 As a signalman my problem was the down main line was now blocked by 3 shunters that would rather play tricks on the driver just to make the time past ,that's my experiences. I would let them out of B siding just after a down st Albans suburban so its 20 mins to the next spark, ,its not a lot of time if the pilot doesnt fit straight into the GEB siding as one of the shunters has to throw points over uncouple trucks etc,  

 The wagons the were parked in the Sunshine Goods Shed road or Number 5  road which was a stub-ended siding. I can recall these  wagons as HD  or ways and works wagons and they contained  supplies  signalling gear a such as point levers conpensators rodding,  signal wire , in other words the signal adjusters had their equipment stored in them .                                                                 .When a train load of 4 wheeled GY wagons went past the signal box I would always listen to the wagons because a G Y loaded with grain weighed 22tons and went over the gap between the tracks with a click clack click clack ,

but a train with  4 wheeled G.H wagons loaded with grain  and they made a different sound going over the gap between the tracks it was more of a BOOM BOOM, BOOM BOOM, BOOM BOOM. I think they weighted in at  30 ton and  I think I am wrong with the weights  so some please correct me  with the correct weights but the GH/GY wagons. They were over loaded the track and the signal box would shake.  I can feel it now !!!!
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
Based on a photo on Peter J Vincent's web site, GH 150 had a tare of 10.43t and a load capacity of 22.5t. Putting them together my (poor) maths totals 32.93t which is slightly more than David's figure, so it's no wonder the box shook with a load of them going past.
Of minor note is that my Boxing Day train post I'd written 6:50pm when it was actually 6:50am; not really something to worry about really but I want this record to show the correct time.
Thanks to Bill and David for their filling in the information about the GEB sidings. My info was lacking real detail as a lot was based on 40 year old notes and little real memory of what happened. Its good to read accurate records of how those sidings were worked.  

Neil
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

I'll concur with the others and say that this has been/is a most enjoyable read. I do think that 'B' Siding and its associated sidings could make the basis of a most interesting model.
  hbedriver Assistant Commissioner

You could even model the RT class that is marooned there now, surrounded by a platform arrangement out the back of the flour mill. Easily seen from Albion station.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Trying to get a bit of context I had a quick look at the signal diagrams at the excellent victornanrailways.net site. The one for Sunshine is a PDF from around 2008 so not that useful however the one in the link below for Albion shows some of the sidings referenced in this thread.

http://www.victorianrailways.net/signaling/completedia/albsab79dia.html

The Albion Reid sidings would be the cement sidings referenced in the thread title as they were a quarry company that was taken over by Boral.

As an aside I was once told and thereafter believed that Albion was named after the Albion truck as Sunshine is named for the harvester. I believed that as sure as sunrise!
  Shazam75 Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
wow thank you David Harvey for a most interesting read!  30 GYs backing into the GEB.  I assume derailments were also a big risk with backing 4 wheelers ?
And really interesting to read about the HDs.  When I was a young kid, I remember walking up to these HD vans which were abondened on this Goods Shed road siding.  They were rusting pretty badly and being a young kid I was going to climb into them but backed off after seeing the rust eating away at the steel bodies.  This must have been about 1987 or 1986.

I really need to find the signalling diagram I had of Sunshine which was dated 1974 or there-abouts.  I will post it up when I find it.

Still no observations on the Sunshine Goods Shed being used - so it seems it probably came into dis-use in the 1960s or earlier.

It seems the Cement Siding (Boral) was used pretty well.  Here we see three such wagons on this pilot heading back to Totty yard.  The GY/GHs most likely came from Darling and Sons.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/60901191@N08/5767418206/in/faves-97389605@N00/

Regards
Shelton
  Shazam75 Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
One photo which has always intrigued me is the following.  Is the pilot coming out of the Darling and Sons siding or are these wagons going to be pushed into said siding?  The train is obviously split in two and I cannot figure out what has happened previous to the photo being taken.
Not sure if the marker lights on the Y Class loco give us some hints?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/doctorjbeam/7182268473/in/photolist-vkE48N-74jNf6-L4KrtF-6hGLA1-74oJoY-c68oe5-74oGuL-bVEMp6-bWF5na-SoXHp4-c687r3-ce3r51-c68pQd-c68779-bWF468-ce3qdC-c687fC-c686Bw-c68pVS-c5ZaCQ-c616PA-ce3nby-c687J3-c686Md-bWF4wF-c686VU-ce3rs5-ce3ryy-ce3qQQ-ce3qim-ce3rhC-bWF1c4-ce3rEd-c687Ab-ce3qrQ-ce3nRC-ce3nuh-LNXqj7-CHFkha-74sKuN-Myyz8u-bWF4Ke-bWF2Jp-ce3n4j-ce3rkA-bVELxx-ce3o4s-Jv2SkJ-RyeEdD-gSQzjo

Regards
Shelton
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
Marker lights on a pilot were a standard setting; white on one side and red on the other, so they don't give any information other than it is a pilot. Obviously most Y class had their marker lights set in this way almost permanently, (as did the F, M, V, E and W) which made changing them all the more difficult, as they tended to stick from lack of use. Changing them had to be done if they were rostered as lead unit on a train; e.g. the "good old days" of a Werribee pass, pre-electrification, or a branch line run. The white on the loco assistant side is obvious in your photo, the red not so.
Considering changing the colour of a marker on most VR locos was done by hand changing them was something done as little as possible! The short end of a Y was relatively easy, being in the cab and protected from the weather but the long end was a pain. You had to open the hood door closest to the end, which was basically an empty space with just a jumper cable, if you were lucky (don't know why Clyde did that really, just took more metal to cover that space and from what I've seen caused no end of rust problems!) Adjacent to both marker lights was a metal lens holder with a red lens on a pivot and a short lever which had to be pushed towards the hood end to clear the latch, to prevent the lens moving of it's own accord, and then swung into place between the light globe and clear lens on the hood.
From memory every class up to the New X had this arrangement, (L1171 was changed to electrical selection when the nose was lowered, evident by the dual marker lights) which is why there was only one marker on each side until those and subsequent classes came along. With electrical selection came two marker lights per side to eliminate the hassle of having a motor swing the red lens into place, with the potential problems of displaying an incorrect colour if the motor failed.
Main line locos had less of a problem as they were usually left white, or turned off if trailing, but that just made them even harder to change!
Poor old Y109; it seems as though it spent a lot of time in B siding, because it was there all week when I worked that week at Tottenham.
From what I can judge from the photo the Y is pushing the GYs on top of those already there. The loco crew appear to be looking that way as is the shunter and the rake is heading into that road. What would clinch it would be if you could see a shunter riding the step of the leading GY (shunters step only on one side, always on the drivers side on the near and the assistants at the far end) steps or one at the distant rake waving the crew on. Interestingly, the hand brake on the nearest GY is on, the lever is almost horizontal, which means it's on hard too.

Neil
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf

The head shunter generally came into the cab, partially to fill us in on what we had to do but also to get out of the wind

and because almost to a man they all wore shorts and shirt all year round.

Neil


I think the question has to be asked Neil ,why is this shunter wearing long pants?

I notice that he is also wearing his rain coat psychological as well.
ngarner
  Shazam75 Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Thank you Neil - learnt something new about the maker lights on the Y!  
So it seems the rake must be all empties from the Darling and Sons siding - and would have been propelled from that siding back into B Siding.  Looks like to get to this position, the pilot would have had to made two short trips to the Darling and Sons siding from the B Siding.  Very interesting!

Regards
Shelton
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville

The head shunter generally came into the cab, partially to fill us in on what we had to do but also to get out of the wind

and because almost to a man they all wore shorts and shirt all year round.

Neil


I think the question has to be asked Neil ,why is this shunter wearing long pants?

I notice that he is also wearing his rain coat psychological as well.
david harvey
"almost to a man" - mind you, I could be remembering the bulk of the shunters in the various Melbourne yards. I don't blame him wearing weather protection in rain, most did; they're weren't stupid. Rain made it uncomfortable for everyone, including the loco crew if the shunt required leaning out of the windows!

Neil
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
I did a little bit of shunting back in the days and what I remember of the yellow rain coats was that the rain managed to run down your neck and run down both your arms when sending hand signals or perhaps it was just the rain coat that I was given ,put it on and you think you will be dry .
 Classic photo of Y109 in Vline livery  on the Up sunshine pilot with 23=26 vehicles

and just a few years earlier is the same Y class in B siding in the rain,

Neil is correct with the shunter on the last GY waving the rake back. ,to couple on to the remaining GY's standing in B siding .                I think Y109 has gone forward into J.Darling siding ,used the small run around loop and pushed the 6 GY wagons back out into B siding , then the shunter has manually activated the boom barriers at Anderson Road for the pilot to cross.

If the pilot was going to J Darling siding, I doubt there would be a shunter on the last vehicle.
The shunter ,why hasn't he hopped on to the Y class? He isn't going to walk when he can get a free ride  because

the Pilot is coming back to pick him up as he will throw  the points over for the B siding loop track where the Y109 will run around the rake of wagons and now want to return to Tottenham yard. The GYS are fitted with tarpaulins hopefully to keep the inside of the wagon dry after all wet grain is no good to man nor beast  The GY springs above the wheels look like are smiling and are not under load,the wagons are M.T. If the wagons were full the springs would be flat.The other GY wagons were most likely  shunted from the GEB siding earlier in the morning, but its only purely speculation on my behalf .

Dave
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
The GYS are fitted with tarpaulins hopefully to keep the inside of the wagon dry after all wet grain is no good to man nor beast  The GY springs above the wheels look like are smiling and are not under load,the wagons are M.T. If the wagons were full the springs would be flat.The other GY wagons were most likely  shunted from the GEB siding earlier in the morning, but its only purely speculation on my behalf .

Dave
david harvey
Good pick up on the GY springs David, I didn't think to look for that.
I'm not surprised that shunters arms got wet when using hand signals, considering most signals required your hands at least horizontal, if not vertical, but I am surprised to read that they weren't that effective at other times, especially at the neck. Worst feeling having water running down your back when you can't avoid it and you're in the middle of a shift in windswept Tottenham yard. The VR were a bunch of cheapskates, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised at all!

Neil
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

I did a little bit of shunting back in the days and what I remember of the yellow rain coats was that the rain managed to run down your neck and run down both your arms when sending hand signals or perhaps it was just the rain coat that I was given, put it on and you think you will be dry .
david harvey
That coat looks quite bright and clean, must be a new one... Railways being a dirty environment, and everything being wet made the dirt 'transfer' more effective, rain coats didn't stay clean for long, and, no, more rain did not 'wash' them.

The coats were awful uncomfortable things to wear; I note he has forgone the leggings, probably in the interests of freedom of movement. The coat made you sweat more making the inside of the coat wet, as well as the ingress of rain.
And if your hat got bumped, it sent a torrent of water down your back under the coat, giving you a wet *rse.

I recall a few times as a young man when getting caught in rain, stripping off my shirt and working just in boots and shorts (Stubbies in those days!). That way at least you had a dry shirt to put on when you could finally get out of the rain.

Rain coats are still a pain to wear while working, but now coats use better designs with superior materials.
  prwise Locomotive Driver

Surely congratulation must go to Shelton for his persistence on keeping this thread alive

and knowing there must be some old kodgers out there who remember some thing about Sunshine ?
Agreed, this thread is an absolute corker, loving it.
BrentonGolding
Could not agree more. A great read.

A lot of work goes into wordsmithing these recollections. It is not in vain. Many lurkers do enjoy these stories, and this collection is a ripper

Thanks to all
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
I did a little bit of shunting back in the days and what I remember of the yellow rain coats was that the rain managed to run down your neck and run down both your arms when sending hand signals or perhaps it was just the rain coat that I was given, put it on and you think you will be dry .
That coat looks quite bright and clean, must be a new one... Railways being a dirty environment, and everything being wet made the dirt 'transfer' more effective, rain coats didn't stay clean for long, and, no, more rain did not 'wash' them.
Lockspike
That's another good pickup from Lockspike, about the cleanliness of the raincoat. As he says, getting dirty was part of the job, one reason why loco crews wore overalls almost universally. It meant slightly less of your normal attire had to be cleaned and considering the amount of grease and other muck at rail level which transferred really easily it was rare to sign off in anywhere near the state you signed on in.
IMHO the worst would have had to been at Spencer St station. Getting down to ground level to couple a loco to a passenger train in amongst the years of accumulated muck at ground level and the undercarriage of both pass car and loco was not something I liked. Lining up the couplers by hand (and a boot, if necessary), opening one jaw and, then, once coupled, crawling in to join the air hoses meant coming out filthy and that's not an exaggeration. The air hoses were always filthy too, being low down at the front of the loco unless a new one had been fitted very recently. Dynon wasn't as bad, even though the stabling roads were coated in oil, as multiple units were usually coupled together by a fitter (they didn't seem to trust the crews to do it properly, not that we complained) so crews just had to climb on and head for the TR (train register) point.
Shunters by the nature of their job copped it worse, always being in amongst the running gear, couplers and muck on the ground.  

Neil
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I did a little bit of shunting back in the days and what I remember of the yellow rain coats was that the rain managed to run down your neck and run down both your arms when sending hand signals or perhaps it was just the rain coat that I was given, put it on and you think you will be dry .
That coat looks quite bright and clean, must be a new one... Railways being a dirty environment, and everything being wet made the dirt 'transfer' more effective, rain coats didn't stay clean for long, and, no, more rain did not 'wash' them.

The coats were awful uncomfortable things to wear; I note he has forgone the leggings, probably in the interests of freedom of movement. The coat made you sweat more making the inside of the coat wet, as well as the ingress of rain.
And if your hat got bumped, it sent a torrent of water down your back under the coat, giving you a wet *rse.

I recall a few times as a young man when getting caught in rain, stripping off my shirt and working just in boots and shorts (Stubbies in those days! ????). That way at least you had a dry shirt to put on when you could finally get out of the rain.

Rain coats are still a pain to wear while working, but now coats use better designs with superior materials.
Lockspike
Wet weather gear certainly improved during the National Rail (NR) era.

Early in NR I had a set of the yellow 'plastic' gear in which one got almost as wet inside due to perspiration as the outside This was all in addition to water running down one's neck etc as it merely had a shirt type of collar. Some were given a matching 'Sou-Wester' IIRC. This gear had no reflective strips.

Later I got a beaut 'breathable' orange rain coat with mesh lining, a proper hood and collar arrangement plus elastic just inside the velcro fitted cuffs. It must have cost them a heap in comparison with the yellow plastic. This coat also had reflective strips which have the disadvantage that I can only wear it around the garden now rather than the football. SmileSmile
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
So now for another exciting episode about the amazing adventures of “B” siding.                                                                                            Here’s what some of our readers have said so far;                                                                                                                                         It’s an Absolute Corker!!!!    MR B   from places unknown.                                                                                                                           What a ripper!!!!                MR PR from places  unknown                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Sunshine  or B siding was used to carried out a lot of run around moves from the Brooklyn line or from the Tottenham line .  A steam loco/ train could run directly from Brooklyn to Tottenham or vice versa, so then the loco would be funnel first or loco first , but run the loco via Sunshine and it would return to Brooklyn or Tottenham tender first . B siding, you’ve done it again.                                                             Back in the day pilots would only run to a particular siding ,shunt then go back to the yard , it was later on when it was discovered that pilots should do multiple shunts at different sidings did we see varied loading attached . One pilot that never picked up anybody else’s rubbish was the Deer Park ICI explosives train. In my time at Sunshine it may run 1 or 2 times a week with three or four explosive vans.                              These 4 wheeled , classified as “P’  vans were paint red with yellow striping on the corners . I suppose the P stood for Powder van ?What made this little train so interesting as the safety wagons that were spaced between each P van . These safety wagons were placed there so if there was a fire or some imminent danger, the brave fireman would only have to go back to the safety wagon to up couple.                             Between each “P” van there was about 4 safety wagons. These safety wagons were made up of any old wagon that were close to death or nearly off register, meaning that the department used any wagon that wasn’t revenue earning and it was a great to watch the old 4 wheelers having a final fling. I liked the bogie UB wagons but that wasn’t a 4 wheeler.                                                                                             There were G, B, IA ,IT, KMQ , OC, ETC  that isn’t a  wagon its means etcetera .


Dave

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