There is conflict no matter where you go in the Melbourne network. Look at Altona/Laverton junctions.

So what? That's no reason to keep them, if they're avoidable.

Run the Northern Loop Clockwise and you make life a lot easier for everybody. Alternatively, you could modify the Kensington Flyover to serve North Melbourne platforms 7/8 with the RRL, and with four extra tracks over Dudley Street and some dual gauge works you could put V/Line and SG pass trains into all of Southern Cross platforms 1-8, 15 & 16 without any inner-suburban conflicts at all. But that's a long way off.

I thought the new timetable was meant to be launched this month.  Has it been pushed back for some reason?

I've heard it's now going to be in October. Don't know why it's been delayed though.

It's Metro - it's late.  

Ultimately, future timetables should cement the directions in which each group of trains run through the loop.

Cannot be done. Drivers need to experience regular running in both directions to maintain competency, in case of eventualities which necessitate swapping direction, as well as signalling infrastructure needs to have regular use.

No underground loop currently sticks to the one direction. If you look at the City Circle loop (platform 1 underground), it runs in a different direction on weekdays to weekends.

All underground loops need to swap directions at some point during the week for the above reason.

Alternatively, you could modify the Kensington Flyover to serve North Melbourne platforms 7/8

Errr... what? Last time I checked, there were only six platforms at North Melbourne.

I've heard it's now going to be in October. Don't know why it's been delayed though.

Newport Sidings are not yet ready.

Just on that, a driver needs to maintain competency on a line by actually driving over it. Loop clockwise is considered different to lool counter clockwise.

Same for the track, a track needs to be used, again, in both directions, for it to maintain it's worthiness.

Surely you can’t say a single directional signalled track must be driven over both ways to achieve track worthiness? Bit confused as to your terminology here...

Cannot be done. Drivers need to experience regular running in both directions to maintain competency, in case of eventualities which necessitate swapping direction, as well as signalling infrastructure needs to have regular use.

No underground loop currently sticks to the one direction. If you look at the City Circle loop (platform 1 underground), it runs in a different direction on weekdays to weekends.

There you go. Problem solved. Run it a different direction on weekends only.

In the short term, I agree with calt that the four Loop tracks should be made monodirectional, with reversals on the weekends and signage to reflect this, although I will point out that the reason is more to do with driver training than infrastructure.

In the long term, each of the four loops should be permanently made monodirectional. If that means removing the infrastructure for the opposite direction movements then so be it.

Simplicity for the daily passenger should take precedence over the occasional event where the Loop must be reversed for train operations, when you could resort to Pilotman working if neccesary.

quick quiz: who still knows what that is? [/mckenzie]

Incidentally, when I was doing work experience about two years ago in Metrol, some derailment on the Loco Flyover meant that the northernmost track over Dudley Street could not be used; the solution provided was to put all North Melbourne trains through platforms 3, 4, 5 and 6 and accept the delays. I suggested reversing the Loop so that up trains would avoid the Dudley Street bridge, and was told that this could not be done because it caused problems with the late-running portion of the operators' contract.

Steamtostay,

Thanks for your validation on ludicrous ideas. ;p

Half the reason why they might have said no, was probably to do with the contractual agreements, but remember, people will shut you down for no apparent reason as well.

But given you are now within Metrol, who do you think you can pitch this to? Is there anyone in the company where this can gain more ground?

The loop tracks need to retain the flexibilty to run in either direction even if that isn't used on a daily or all-day basis.

The signalling is installed and staff trained so why waste what is already there?  Even if a loop were to run one-way only for all advertised purposes what happens in an emergency or at times when another loop might be shut down and the reverse-direction service is required?

It doesn't take a lot of ingenuity to also devise a roster whereby all public services might be in one direction but a couple of very early or late empty-car movements go the other way just to prove signalling and retain driver's route knowledge.

The signalling is installed and staff trained so why waste what is already there?  Even if a loop were to run one-way only for all advertised purposes what happens in an emergency or at times when another loop might be shut down and the reverse-direction service is required?

If a Loop track runs in one direction all day, every day during running hours, you will be hard-pressed to find a driver who is qualified in running trains in the opposite direction through the Loop, and you have no guarantee that all the equipment works.

For what I've read, Pilotman working ignores all signals when running "wrong line", which is essentially what would happen here. If the infrastructure is never and will never be used, take it out and recycle the parts, because surely they would be of more value elsewhere.

There are emergency procdeures that allow for running in the opposite direction over a given portion of track, even if they are used far less often in the modern era because buses are usually a cheaper and easier option.

It doesn't take a lot of ingenuity to also devise a roster whereby all public services might be in one direction but a couple of very early or late empty-car movements go the other way just to prove signalling and retain driver's route knowledge.

It is highly unlikely that you will be able to cycle through every single one of the 800+ drivers currently employed within the qualification period, remembering that you would need to do so for all four tracks, and the Parliament - Flinders Street link in the Clifton Hill Loop.

Why the need to be specially trained in both directions when the route is identical with same infrastructure in both directions. Its the same tunnel with same station spacing and signal system.

This need to constantly relearn routes is over kill it doesn't happen on the road system once learn't is enough to know it even if its years before driving that line again. unless there have been changes to the line route knowledge even from 1o years ago will be fine and perfectly safe.

Not all railway systems do this internationally many simply just train the drivers how to operate the trains and understand the "universal system wide signal system" which is the same on all lines.

Id like to see examples from within the last 100 years where major accident was directly contributed to lack of route knowledge any ware in Australia. If there is less than 1 in 100 years id say the risk of this is very small indeed.

SteamToStay, Pilotman working does not exist any longer. It's referred to as "Single Line Working", and if you want to do that in the loop you get *drumroll* ONE train in each tunnel. I suppose you could set up Jolimont to Parliament, Parliament to Melbourne Central, Melbourne Central to Flagstaff, Flagstaff to Southern Cross, and Southern Cross to Flinders Street each as its own block....

Also, fixed signals are certainly NOT ignored. The pilot has the authority to enter a train into a section past a signal, but can't authorise the train past the signal OUT of the section. Also, it takes a long time to get around the Loop at 15km/h.

Furthermore, unless you take out the signals for the reverse loop direction then you can't implement Single Line Working in the loop. It's already bidirectional.

You could keep the Principal Drivers trained in the anticlockwise direction and get them to pilot drivers through the loop if required. This is not at all related to Single Line Working (Pilot Working)

Surely you can’t say a single directional signalled track must be driven over both ways to achieve track worthiness? Bit confused as to your terminology here...

Yes.

Because, it's considered a different track depending on direction.

Precisely why drivers are not supposed to cover the same run twice in a shift. Their rostering eventually means they run over the lot, over time.

How often do we have train collisions? Not that often. Simply because 99.99% of drivers are familiar with the tracks.

To avoid being ambiguous, I support the current rostering as it makes sure everyone does a bit of everything.

And I can't believe people are advocating single direction loop running. Ipso facto, you want better services but you want to reduce options?

SteamToStay, Pilotman working does not exist any longer. It's referred to as "Single Line Working", and if you want to do that in the loop you get *drumroll* ONE train in each tunnel. I suppose you could set up Jolimont to Parliament, Parliament to Melbourne Central, Melbourne Central to Flagstaff, Flagstaff to Southern Cross, and Southern Cross to Flinders Street each as its own block....

Nothing wrong with that, aside from Flagstaff not being staffed on weekends.

And I reserve the right to call it Pilotman working; you all know what I mean, chalk it up as a side-effect of building miniature floorplates and inhaling solder fumes...

Also, fixed signals are certainly NOT ignored. The pilot has the authority to enter a train into a section past a signal, but can't authorise the train past the signal OUT of the section.

Unless no such signal exists. I'm comparing it to pilotman working on a double-line section with one line booked out for whatever reason; trains in the "normal" direction would need to obey signals, but if no signals exist in the opposite direction then that isn't an issue.

Also, it takes a long time to get around the Loop at 15km/h.

I thought 25km/h?

Either way, I think that's an acceptable price to pay, given the rarity of such an event.

Furthermore, unless you take out the signals for the reverse loop direction then you can't implement Single Line Working in the loop. It's already bidirectional.

Yes, that was my original suggestion. You wouldn't be using them at all, might as well recycle the parts.

You could keep the Principal Drivers trained in the anticlockwise direction and get them to pilot drivers through the loop if required. This is not at all related to Single Line Working (Pilot Working)

That's a good idea, actually. Probably better than mine, although replace "anticlockwise" with "opposite" - not all loops would run in the same direction, that doesn't make sense.

And I can't believe people are advocating single direction loop running. Ipso facto, you want better services but you want to reduce options?

Not reduce options at all; increase simplicity. Not all loops would run clockwise. The Clifton Hill and Northern Loops would be best off running clockwise to reduce conflicts at Jolimont and Franklin Street Junctions respectively, although the latter is pending RRL design work which may fix the problem. Both the Burnley and Caulfield Loops could run in either direction as their portal placements are better suited to bidirectional running, although with two loops running clockwise I believe that the other two should run anticlockwise to keep the balance of directional running; two in each direction with signage to reflect this.

Taking out one direction of signalling on any of the four city loops is not going to happen for these reasons (i) it would cost more money to take it out than it costs to maintain it and (ii) once taken out you have lost operational flexibility that you may well regret losing in the future .

Steamtostay,


given you are now within Metrol, who do you think you can pitch this to? Is there anyone in the company where this can gain more ground?

Steamtostay is not in Metrol. He was there on work experience as his post said.

The underground loops (and the loop viaducts) can and do switch directions during disruptions if required, and will sometimes run in both directions. This has happened during both planned and unplanned disruptions. It would not be a new thing.

Having single direction operating during weekdays is certainly much more effective than having bi-directional running. You don’t see your heart chambers running in different directions during the day ;p?

I agree with Steamtostay in the fact that different directions during the weekend is sufficient for route knowledge coverage, but I will not go as far as to remove the infrastructure.

For what it's worth, I'm now more in favour of in the short term, operating each of the Loops in one direction on weekdays and the opposite on weekends, and in the long-term permanently in one direction but keeping the Principal Drivers qualified in the opposite.

SteamToStay, using PDs to pilot is not even remotely a viable solution to keep trains running. Think about it, every train would need a PD all the way from Richmond/North Melbourne to Flinders Street. There aren't enough PDs!

Why the need to be specially trained in both directions when the route is identical with same infrastructure in both directions. Its the same tunnel with same station spacing and signal system.

It is NOT an identical route in both directions. The approach to Melbourne Central is totally different when approaching from Flagstaff compared to approaching from Parliament - different signals, different characteristics, etc., even I know that and I am not a driver. And that is but one example.

Dave

SteamToStay, using PDs to pilot is not even remotely a viable solution to keep trains running. Think about it, every train would need a PD all the way from Richmond/North Melbourne to Flinders Street. There aren't enough PDs!

Hey, it was your idea  

Besides, what are the odds that you'd need to reverse more than one loop at a time, against the normal direction?

Hey is there anything that specifically requires the loop to be reversed around noon?

To be honest, I would like to stagger the reversal, especially for Burnley vs. Richmond. E.g. Burnley trains change directions at 9:30AM, Caulfield changes 3:00PM and then back at 7:30PM? This means that for most of the day, there is easier access to/from Richmond, as well as around the loop

That’s even worse than changing directions at a set time, you then now have 4 times to remember!

At least the idea of serving the customer better is still instilled.

http://www.premier.vic.gov.au/component/content/article/11708.html

Media release
From the Premier of Victoria

Monday, 30 August, 2010

NEW TIMETABLE TO DELIVER MORE TRAIN SERVICES

A new train timetable will deliver 285 more weekly services for Melbourne's rail network from 10 October 2010.

Premier John Brumby and Public Transport Minister Martin Pakula today announced the new services and said they were being delivered as a result of infrastructure improvements, as well as the eleven new X'Trapolis trains that are now operating on the network.

"These new services are the latest step in the Government's $38 billion Victorian Transport Plan, delivering new trains, new tracks and more services," Mr Brumby said.

"Our Government is determined to deliver on our commitment to provide a better transport network and this new timetable, and the 285 new services will make a huge improvement for rail passengers.

"Together with rail operator Metro, we've worked to allocate new peak services to the Werribee, Sydenham and Craigieburn lines.

"There is also a fantastic package of off-peak improvements for Frankston line passengers, both during the day and at night.

"We now have eleven of our 38 new X'Trapolis trains operating on the network. The first five of these trains allowed us to introduce 211 new and extended weekly services earlier this year on the Pakenham, Cranbourne and Frankston lines.

"The new services, together with the operating changes we made on those lines, have been successful at balancing loads and improving performance."

The 16 per cent increase in capacity on the Dandenong Corridor during peak periods exceeded increases in passenger loads and therefore created additional space for passengers.

Research shows the number of services from 7.30am to 9.30am exceeding 798 passengers dropped from 12 in May to five in August 2010. In the evening, the number of services from 3.30pm to 7.00pm exceeding 798 passengers dropped from 12 to four.

The 17 per cent increase in capacity on the Frankston line during peak periods exceeded increases in passenger loads and therefore created additional space for passengers.

The number of services from 7.30am to 9.30am exceeding 798 passengers remained at four. In the evening, the number of services from 3.30pm to 7.00pm exceeding 798 passengers dropped from six to one.

Mr Brumby said the Government was delivering improvements to the system and this was set to continue with the extra services and new timetable, and with new timetables set to follow next year as more trains come onto the tracks.

Mr Pakula said a key part of introducing the new timetable was the $93 million Laverton Rail Upgrade Project which, together with the larger train fleet, has enabled the introduction of new services on the Werribee line.

"All track works are now complete and the benefits of the project are starting to be realised. By constructing a third platform and an extra kilometre of track, we've removed the bottleneck between the Altona Loop and Laverton Station," he said.

From 10 October, two new morning peak services will run every weekday from Laverton Station into the city. These new services will also allow two existing Werribee line services to run express, delivering shorter travel times for Werribee passengers.

In the evening peak, two new services will leave every day from Flinders Street Station and terminate at Laverton, allowing two Werribee-bound services to run express.

There will be two new morning peak services every day on the Sydenham line, with one new service in the evening peak every day. There's also a new after school service running from Flinders Street to St Albans. These new services are great news for a line which is known to be one of the most popular in Melbourne.

There will be one new morning peak service every day on the Craigieburn line, as well as one evening peak service every day which will run from Flinders Street to Broadmeadows.

On the Frankston line, off-peak services will be upgraded to a frequency of every 10 minutes from 9am to 4.30 pm, an improvement from the existing 15 minute service. There will also be a new 20 minute frequency in the post PM peak, from 7.00 pm until 10.00 pm every weekday. This is an improvement from the existing 30 minute frequency and great news for people who travel home late from the city.

Mr Pakula said the new trains and the extra services would make significant improvements to Melbourne's rail network.

"We are building a better transport system so people can spend more time with family and friends and less time travelling to and from work," Mr Pakula said.