New trams to be built mostly in Melbourne

 
  Speed Minister for Railways

The Age highlights that the old Comeng plant will produce trams once more.
It is the first order for new trams placed by Labor in 11 years of government, and it is only half of Labor's 2006 promise to put 100 new trams on the city's tracks. Canadian transport giant Bombardier, the world's biggest tram manufacturer, yesterday beat France's Alstom to win the $300 million contract.

Commonwealth Engineering (or Comeng) made hundreds of the city's existing trains and trams in the 1970s and 1980s at the Dandenong plant, which is now owned by Bombardier. The last tram made at the factory rolled off production lines in December 1993. All new trams and trains since then have been imported. Eleven new trains brought into service in Melbourne this year were made in Poland and assembled in Italy.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/dandenong-plant-to-build-50-trams-20100927-15u42.html

The last comment before comments were closed was
The opposition may be out of ideas, but this government has been holding back on them. Why is it that now, just out from an election, they announce this? ...
just a make work scheme, we need to understand just how much extra we are going to pay for these trams, how much will your vote cost?
Matt Melbourne - September 28, 2010, 10:17AM


The thread on the tender began in June last year but the announcement has coincided well with the commencement of the new Parliament. Back then, Kosky may well have anticipated Rudd calling a federal election right now.

What are these Polish trams mentioned in the Age? I know about the Melhouse Citadis ones but they came years ago.

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  Brendan03 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney

What are these Polish trams mentioned in the Age? I know about the Melhouse Citadis ones but they came years ago.
"Speed"


Wouldn't be those Skoda trams? They're Czech built but since when has the Age been accurate?
  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
Well, I believe that Adelaides trams are made by Bombardier. I'm not talking about the old ones. Will they be the Euro trams that were tested at Dandenong in 2003?

It will be good for the trams to be made in Australia. Like anything, the componants won't be 100% made here.
  Brendan03 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Well, I believe that Adelaides trams are made by Bombardier. I'm not talking about the old ones. Will they be the Euro trams that were tested at Dandenong in 2003?

It will be good for the trams to be made in Australia. Like anything, the componants won't be 100% made here.
"Camster"


Yes. They're Flexity Classic. Awful things. They're worse than the Vario tram in Sydney.
  LamontCranston Chief Commissioner

And you're right myrtone, as I said in the other thread (why are there two parallel threads on this?), the trams should be made in Europe. Leave Australia to do what it can do better (basic free trade theory).
"tonyp"

The only reason why they can and we can't is because they have already existing assembly lines and we do not because of free market ideology.
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

The trams we are getting here in Melbourne are the Flexity 2, not the flexity. They will be a bi-directional 33 meter long, 3 bogie (2 driving, one trailing),  5 car tram, irrespective of what the images say (FYI, a 33 meter tram of only 3 sections wouldn't fit around many of our curves!).

"msilsby"


Adelaide's Flexity are 30m long, so this is only ~3m longer. The 3 segment tram in the video, with 1 wheelset under the outer section and 2 under the middle, just like Adelaide's would of course fit around Melbourne's curves. An Adelaide Flexity even had a tour around Melbourne before it was delivered. Consider 2 Zs coupled together - 4 wheelsets, 32m long. Yes it fits!
I think it just hilights how crap the Combinos were, 3 segments but hardly any seats, or a 5 segment snake with only 58 vs this one's 76.

As for it being more expensive than Toronto's: they ordered 204 for a cost of $AUD5.27m each, vs ours $300m/50=$6m each, but Toronto's are only 28m long. Even more importantly, Canada's are single ended, single sided trams! They only have one driver's cab, and only one side of the tram has doors. I really don't think it is unreasonable for the massive order (surely one of the biggest in the world, ever!), at least twice the number of doors, an extra driving cab, and the extra 5m of steel, glass and labour to make up the difference of $730,000 per tram.

Still think we were ripped off? I think DoT has finally done something right Smile
  tomohawk Chief Commissioner

Location: Getting The Met to get around
bramt, don't let facts get in the way of a 'good' story!
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
I for one am very dissapointed the DoT didn't go for something which has proven success in Melbourne.

I'm sure Alstom would have been more than happy to provide a licence to manufacture some of them locally, as with the X'trapolis.

You'd think the DoT would be able to do something right but I guess not.
"Brendan03"


Was alstom's bid higher than Bombardier's like I thought?
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

I for one am very dissapointed the DoT didn't go for something which has proven success in Melbourne.

I'm sure Alstom would have been more than happy to provide a licence to manufacture some of them locally, as with the X'trapolis.

You'd think the DoT would be able to do something right but I guess not.
"Brendan03"


Was alstom's bid higher than Bombardier's like I thought?
"Myrtone"


That information is never revealed, for very good reason.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
It was with the Toronto order, Siemens bid was over 50% higher than Bombardier's.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
It was with the Toronto order, Siemens bid was over 50% higher than Bombardier's.
"Myrtone"

This is Australia.


Adelaide's Flexity are 30m long, so this is only ~3m longer. The 3 segment tram in the video, with 1 wheelset under the outer section and 2 under the middle, just like Adelaide's would of course fit around Melbourne's curves. An Adelaide Flexity even had a tour around Melbourne before it was delivered. Consider 2 Zs coupled together - 4 wheelsets, 32m long. Yes it fits!
I think it just hilights how crap the Combinos were, 3 segments but hardly any seats, or a 5 segment snake with only 58 vs this one's 76.

As for it being more expensive than Toronto's: they ordered 204 for a cost of $AUD5.27m each, vs ours $300m/50=$6m each, but Toronto's are only 28m long. Even more importantly, Canada's are single ended, single sided trams! They only have one driver's cab, and only one side of the tram has doors. I really don't think it is unreasonable for the massive order (surely one of the biggest in the world, ever!), at least twice the number of doors, an extra driving cab, and the extra 5m of steel, glass and labour to make up the difference of $730,000 per tram.
"bramt"

So it must be the world's most gold-plated tram depot then.

How do these Flexity's go around corners if there are two fixed bogies in the middle section with no articulation?
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
It was with the Toronto order, Siemens bid was over 50% higher than Bombardier's.
"Myrtone"

This is Australia.
"tonyp"


What difference does that make?


Adelaide's Flexity are 30m long, so this is only ~3m longer. The 3 segment tram in the video, with 1 wheelset under the outer section and 2 under the middle, just like Adelaide's would of course fit around Melbourne's curves. An Adelaide Flexity even had a tour around Melbourne before it was delivered. Consider 2 Zs coupled together - 4 wheelsets, 32m long. Yes it fits!
"bramt"


This raises the question of why Melbourne has never operated coupled trams in normal service as Sydney and Adelaide have done.
  themetptc Junior Train Controller

Location: Ballarat

So it must be the world's most gold-plated tram depot then.

How do these Flexity's go around corners if there are two fixed bogies in the middle section with no articulation?
"tonyp


The Bogies on the Flexity 3 section vehicles are not fixed, they do pivot, although not as much as your conventional bogie tram( W, H, Z etc).

The Flexity 5 section vehicles are the same as the Combino and Citadis, though using standard axles in the bogie and may have more movement allowed then the other 2 types.

Sim.
  TheMetman Locomotive Driver

Location: gippsland
All that money wasted on the rented Mulhouse trams for nothing.Plus I prefer the Citadis tram over the Combinos for their door arangement.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven

The Bogies on the Flexity 3 section vehicles are not fixed, they do pivot, although not as much as your conventional bogie tram( W, H, Z etc).

The Flexity 5 section vehicles are the same as the Combino and Citadis, though using standard axles in the bogie and may have more movement allowed then the other 2 types.

Sim.
"themetptc"

Are you sure? Bombardier's technical information indicates that its 100% low floor trams have the fixed bogie. Their pivoting bogie requires high floor sections (like Adelaide Flexity). See the pdf brochure linked to this:

http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/bogies
  YarraTramDriver Station Master

Location: MELBOURNE
Not that I particularly care, but are these new trams designed for shared traffic or conventional light rail?
Those trams we have now that were designed in places other than here are terrible mixing with road traffic. Unlike the trams that were designed here that handle it very well.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Not that I particularly care, but are these new trams designed for shared traffic or conventional light rail?
Those trams we have now that were designed in places other than here are terrible mixing with road traffic. Unlike the trams that were designed here that handle it very well.
"YarraTramDriver"

In what way are they terrible mixing with road traffic and in what way are the Z/A/B better?
  Asapi Locomotive Driver

New release on Bombardier's site confirms that the new trams are Flexity Swift (not Flexity 2):

http://www.bombardier.com/en/corporate/media-centre/press-releases/details?docID=0901260d80134862
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
New release on Bombardier's site confirms that the new trams are Flexity Swift (not Flexity 2):

http://www.bombardier.com/en/corporate/media-centre/press-releases/details?docID=0901260d80134862
"Asapi"

“Two thirds of Melbourne’s trams have been supplied by Bombardier and have provided Melbourne’s commuters with excellent service,” said Dan Osborne, Managing Director of Bombardier Transportation Australia.

That's a breathtaking Goebbelism, makes Toyota look like amateurs! What a slap in the face to Comeng. Bombardier never even knew how to make trams when those were built.

And 100% low floor? I can see those ankle-twisting, trip-inducing plinths between the seats. Even the Sydney Variotrams don't have that. And yet they will still have fixed bogies.

Some can design trams, some can't.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
The fact is that the Flexity Swift, as it currently exists is a pivoting bogie design with part high floor.
Given all the reasons why there was a minimum 25% local content requirement, why were our new trains built completely in Europe?
  scrat Assistant Commissioner

Location: Fitzroy North
They're not, roughly half are going to be imported from Europe while the rest will be made in Ballarat.

Liam.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
In a news report at the start of this thread, it stated that they were built entirely in Europe.
  msilsby Deputy Commissioner

Location: Canberra
In the UK and Canada where the Flexity 2 are used, they are mixed traffic. Canada in particular has a very similar track geometry to Melbourne, with tight curves and mixed running.

As for the high sticker price, it has just occured to me that this contract includes 10 years maintenance. One has to wonder if this might be why the sticker price is a bit higher.

Also, has anyone actually read the press release from the Premiers office about this? It talks about each tram having a capacity of 210 people and the fact that it will ADD capacity of 10'500 passengers to the network. Add, to me, doesn't mean replace. In other words, for it to add that much capacity, nothing would be able to be retired.

Freudian slip, or the truth for a change?



**Update**


It increasingly appears that the model chosen is actually a three car Flexity Swift, not the Flexity 2 expected/promised/discussed. (Queue many a surprised face). From what I understood, the Flexity 2 was the preferred option due to its ability to handle tight curves, largely due to its 'combino like' short sections. At this stage, I am unable to get any further info, but thinking about the bogie position of the proposed flexity Swift, but I can't help but wonder wether the solution is a fourth set of bogies (i.e. 2 at each end, and one at the pivot point for each bogie), similar to the B class.

Looking at images available, I am reminded very much of the B class trams, and can't help but wonder if this was a selling point - as in "Well, its just a largely updated version of the B class that are very reliable in your network. All low floor, of course!"



Will post any further info I can glean.
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

Toronto ordered 204 for a cost of $AUD5.27m each, vs ours $300m/50=$6m each.

So:
*Canada have placed perhaps the largest tram order in history (204), which you would think would carry some sort of volume discount
*Canada's have only one driving cab, and only have doors on one side
*ours are 5m longer
*ours include maintenance for 10 years

I think that surely makes up for the $730,000 difference per tram.

Can't wait till this hits the tracks Smile
  bramt Deputy Commissioner


From what I understood, the Flexity 2 was the preferred option due to its ability to handle tight curves, largely due to its 'combino like' short sections. At this stage, I am unable to get any further info, but thinking about the bogie position of the proposed flexity Swift, but I can't help but wonder wether the solution is a fourth set of bogies (i.e. 2 at each end, and one at the pivot point for each bogie), similar to the B class.

"msilsby"


I am sure the engineers responsible for this design and layout are confident it will fit on the network. It is fairly straightforward to calculate. They won't be adding more wheels to it, that will surely impact the pricetag!
It already has 4 wheelsets: 1 under each outer segment, 2 under the centre segment. Same layout as Adelaide's flexi.

Also, won't the pivoting bogies be better able to handle tight curves than the fixed bogies on citadis/combino that grind and eat up the rail in the curves?

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