V Set Replacement

 
  petey3801 Chief Commissioner

Location: On the rails
Tilt doesn't work with double-deck trains, though, so how will you make up the capacity shortfall?
Watson374

This looks like changing in the near future:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/science_technology/Swiss_test_rail_limits_with_new_super_fleet.html?cid=8880542

So tilting DDIUs may be on the cards some time soon..

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  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
This looks like changing in the near future:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/science_technology/Swiss_test_rail_limits_with_new_super_fleet.html?cid=8880542

So tilting DDIUs may be on the cards some time soon..
"petey3801"

That looks interesting, but the tilt appears to be quite a bit less and it does appear to be quite the risk.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Just to try and inject a big of light along with the heat to this topic, here is a basic run-down of the fleet and the requirements:

There are approximately 420 electric interurban vehicles with a seat capacity of ~42000 PAX.  This is comprised of:

  • *About* 100 Camshaft series V sets built between 1977 and 1982 (not sure how many DC series have been retired)
  • ~ 100 Chopper V sets (DJ & DK series) built between 1983 (?) and 1988
  • 220 OSCAR vehicles in 55 x 4 car sets.

What is the total commuter load?  According to (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8459/8069774920_0b4fefe14b_b.jpg) it's all of 15000 PAX across the whole AM period.
  • 7500 from the Central Coast
  • 3500 from the Mountains
  • 3000 from the South Coast

Yet more than that transfer off interurbans at Central during the AM peak hour.  IIRC somewhere between 30% and 50% of all transfering PAX at Central boarded an interurban (EDIT) in the suburban zone.

Also from the Mountains, (IIRC) ~70% of the load eminates from - or east of - Springwood, and it's probably 85% east of Lawson.

Springwood - Central is less than 80 km, and if the OSCARs could do the run at the currently boarded line speeds, much less their maximum speeds where appropriate - they could do the run into Sydney in under an hour.  And similarly Gosford to Wynyard is 80km via Chatsood.  A run which should take less than an hour takes >90 minutes.  If these runs were reliably tabled and operated in 60 minutes, then they could rightly be regarded as suburban runs and the OSCARs appropriate vehicles for them.

To my mind the interurban fleet deployment is hugely inefficient for many reasons, and is the biggest arewa of "waste" in terms of service delivery in the CityRail - which is no doubt why it's being hived off the NSW Trains.  The main issue is almost all runs are ex-Central served mostly with 800 seat train worth $50mil+, yet outside the suburban area and outside the commuter peak there wouldn't be more than 2 services out of peak that carry more than 200 people.

Personally, I'd like to see Springwood - Gosford in the Sydney Trains zone, getting 6tph peak and only 1 tph off peak, fed by Trains NSW Shuttles.  

But even without that, I think there is huge benefit in obtaining a small fleet of
EDIT: re-completing this post
... (12 - 20 trains) small 200 seat EMUs to provide a base load (ie off peak) hourley or even half hourly shuttle services on the coasts and in the mountains, then only operate large direct trains during the commuter peaks.  If the H set fleet only had to deal with just the commuter peak load interurbans, that would mean complete retirement of the V sets and still leave enough left over to retire a fair slab of the Ks, or perhaps even the entire C set fleet.

Another approach is to retain just the V set trailers (and a few DJMs as end trailers) and acquire a small (10-15) fleet of modern locomotives (or more likely a hook and pull contract) and return to running these peak commuter trains as loco hauled.  Even as trailers the Vs are old and would require a lot of inspection and no doubt maintenance.  A small(ish) service facility to do bogie exchange and overhaul and AC tinkering should be enough - provided the trains run no more than 4 hrs a day and 1000km week.  And with such low distance the maintenance cycles could still be very long.  Under such a scheme the V set fleet as we know it could be retired, as could the entire K & C set fleet, meaning Flemington could be decommissioned.
  Rails Chief Commissioner

Excellent post djf01, very interesting figures! Would not mind seeing the part that was cut off.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
From what I've nutted out, though, congestion on the Lower North Shore means that currently Coast via Shore services cannot run fast until north of Chatswood.
  vdan Train Controller

Personally, I'd like to see Springwood - Gosford in the Sydney Trains zone, getting 6tph peak and only 1 tph off peak, fed by Trains NSW Shuttles.  

But even without that, I think there is huge benefit in obtaining a small fleet of
EDIT: re-completing this post
... (12 - 20 trains) small 200 seat EMUs to provide a base load (ie off peak) hourley or even half hourly shuttle services on the coasts and in the mountains, then only operate large direct trains during the commuter peaks.  If the H set fleet only had to deal with just the commuter peak load interurbans, that would mean complete retirement of the V sets and still leave enough left over to retire a fair slab of the Ks, or perhaps even the entire C set fleet.
djf01

One 200-seat shuttle an hour doesn't appear to match up too well with the 6000/day flowing into the suburban network from the Newcastle & Central Coast line on weekends. If you reluctantly up it to 2 tph, that's technically enough seats but without much room for variability, and there'd be a lot of scattered/standing family members as sets of available adjacent seats would be much harder to come by. I guess those "Funday Sunday" clans and other highly-unprofitable outer suburban commuters should be thankful for what they get! Twisted Evil

On the other hand, the poorer service might turn many people off of their expensively-subsidised, discretionary weekend trips, with outer suburban passenger numbers falling in line with the reduced frequency and/or seat availability.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I guess those "Funday Sunday" clans and other highly-unprofitable outer suburban commuters should be thankful for what they get! Twisted Evil

On the other hand, the poorer service might turn many people off of their expensively-subsidised, discretionary weekend trips, with outer suburban passenger numbers falling in line with the reduced frequency and/or seat availability.
"vdan"

I actually quite like this, as it should allow savings in the sticks to be ploughed back into us proper city folk! (Suffolk? Hmm.) /evilgrin
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

From what I've nutted out, though, congestion on the Lower North Shore means that currently Coast via Shore services cannot run fast until north of Chatswood.
Watson374

Surprisingly enough, I have a solution for that!  http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1825168.htm#1825168
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Surprisingly enough, I have a solution for that!  http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1825168.htm#1825168
"djf01"
You never disappoint!
  Black Hoppers Chief Train Controller

Location: Banned
You never disappoint!
"Watson374"


But he cannot work out how to store/send a pushbike on countrylink, yeah i suppose the simple things are hard.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
But he cannot work out how to store/send a pushbike on countrylink, yeah i suppose the simple things are hard.
"Black Hoppers"
...to be exact, he wasn't sure of the regulations?
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

But he cannot work out how to store/send a pushbike on countrylink, yeah i suppose the simple things are hard.
Black Hoppers
It's CountryLink that makes it hard, not me.  Only a RailCorp employee could possibly describe CountryLink's bike handling as "simple".

I've taken my bike all over the world, on all sorts of transport using all sorts of transportation methods and modes.  Only once have I ever been refused carriage, and guess who that was!
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Only once have I ever been refused carriage, and guess who that was!
"djf01"
CountryLink?
  Straya Station Staff

NSW TrainLink should replace the XPT and V Sets with the same train model. This would ensure inter operation within the fleet and a standardized image. The V set replacement could operate with an all coach design similar to the current V set. The XPT replacement would have First Class (similar to new tilt train lie flat seats) and a Buffet. The best option would be for the train to be based on pendolino / QLD Tilt Train / current xpt, being of either double or single deck design with a push pull cab car set up. The cab cars would be either electric for the V set replacement or Diesel electric/hydraulic for the Xpt replacement. Tilting trains have a top speed of up to 250 kph, however significant improvements would need to be made to the system such as signaling, track condition and upgrades to level crossings. These improvements would be incredibly expensive to the Government however and it is unlikely NSW TrainLink could get the funding needed for such upgrades. Such rolling stock is also expensive and without a upgrade to the network (currently limited to 160 kph) the trains would be a waste of money.

If TrainLink can't get the funding for the upgrades a cheaper option for the fleet renewal would be for a return to modern loco hauled trains. Loco hauled has been the direction the United States has gone on when replacing stock and reintroducing "new" services to city's who had joined the freeway age. Modern Loco hauled systems use one locomotive (either electric or diesel) at the front and passenger coaches with a cab coach at the rear. The train can be controlled from the rear cab effectively operating like a XPT. The Hyundai Rotem range would be the ideal choice [color=#0066cc][size=3][font=Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]https://www.hyundai-rotem.co.kr/Eng/Business/Rail/Railroad/P...[/font][/size][/color]. NSW TrainLink could use existing locomotives such as the 86 and 90 class locos with the option of purchasing newer locos when needed. Considering speed restrictions on our current network, these loco hauled trains wouldn't be slower then the current XPT / V sets. The passenger coachs could be fitted out in a typical commuter train layout for the V set replacements
with the XPT replacement operating a service similar to the AMTRAK Pacific Surfliner
.

Whatever option undertaken the NSW TrainLink replacement rolling stock needs to be standardized and ideally replacing the older stock at the same time.
  Goose Chief Train Controller


Whatever option undertaken the NSW TrainLink replacement rolling stock needs to be standardized.
Stray
Why?
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
[.... mindless foaming drivel snipped ...]
Straya
Oops, nothing else left. Still taking those funny pills, I see. Which nightclub do you get them from?

Dave
  electrax Assistant Commissioner

The XPT, as originally envisaged, had the power car common to two series of trailers, one for urban services (notably Sydney - Wollongong/Port Kembla schedules) with no buffet facilities and the other, for country services, with a buffet car and lower density seating within the consist.  If you look at the early PTC publicity material (circa 1977) you'll find that the blue liveried set on the cover of the leaflet had an abrupt end to the trailing part of the consist (to hide the cab of a driving trailer).  Another interesting piece of publicity had the red/orange/black livery of the first adopted XPT colour scheme painted over the British Rail blue power car and trailers with the background being of the train crossing Stonequarry Creek at Picton.  Many years ago the late Ian Macfarlane showed me the original of this painting (which was done by Phil Belbin).
  chuffa Junior Train Controller

The V-Sets may look old, toilet area is gross and doorway entry points not pram/wheelchair freindly however those green seats are by far the most comfy on the whole cityrail network.
  Jim K Train Controller

Location: Well west of the Great Divide in NSW but not as far as South Australia
The V-Sets may look old, toilet area is gross and doorway entry points not pram/wheelchair freindly however those green seats are by far the most comfy on the whole cityrail network.
chuffa
Agree....
  tim617x Station Staff

I think it was a STUPID idea making the Oscar trains!!! They should have designed a train that fitted on the blue mountains line and was designed for long trips and had more comfortable seats! Making the Oscars just prolonged the process of upgrading the V-sets!
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
I think it was a STUPID idea making the Oscar trains!!! They should have designed a train that fitted on the blue mountains line and was designed for long trips and had more comfortable seats! Making the Oscars just prolonged the process of upgrading the V-sets!
tim617x

yes the OSCars are only a temporary fix. on the plus side they can be converted back into suburban use to expand cityrail fleet.
a true V Set replacement should be on its way in 10-20 years when the Vs cant move anymore.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I think it was a STUPID idea making the Oscar trains!!! They should have designed a train that fitted on the blue mountains line and was designed for long trips and had more comfortable seats! Making the Oscars just prolonged the process of upgrading the V-sets!
"tim617x"
There was a requirement for a quick fix, hence a new train based on the G set model.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
What most people have got wrong is that the OSCars are not badly designed. They're Outer Suburban Cars (funny that, almost like they named them like that). The plan was for them to be used on short distance "Intercity" runs in peak hours, and off peak to run as suburban trains, to permit silver sets to be stabled. Nothing wrong with the train in that regard. The problem is that they've been called upon to operate on runs they're not designed for, to Kiama and Newcastle - this isn't inside their design spec, which is why people find them to be unsuitable. The one toilet, the suburban style seating, etc makes them unsuitable for long distance running.

That said, with the way some passengers treat the trains, that is the type of train for the future - future trains will never be as nice as the V Sets, because society doesn't deserve them.
  sydnytrains Chief Commissioner

Location: McDonalds Front counter serving customers
I personally don't know why everyone hates the OSCAR seats. I find them very comfy. Much more comfy than the M and the A set seats.

I don't think this will be possible, and please don't take me as an armchair expert, but how about spare a few H sets for long distance runs, and retrofit V set seats, and the remaining H set seats can be used as spares, just in case any seats get vandalised. That way they're better off on long distance runs that hey are being used for, such as Central-Kiama/Port Kembla, Newcastle etc.

(Like I said above though, Im not an expert at this. This is just a small suggestion.
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

I personally don't know why everyone hates the OSCAR seats. I find them very comfy. Much more comfy than the M and the A set seats.

I don't think this will be possible, and please don't take me as an armchair expert, but how about spare a few H sets for long distance runs, and retrofit V set seats, and the remaining H set seats can be used as spares, just in case any seats get vandalised.
sydnytrains
Yeah, they are more comfy than the M and A sets, but not the V sets...

No doubt the seats could be changed but they are just suburban trains with somewhat better accommodation and the odd toilet to make them more acceptable for longer distance runs, not purpose-built interurbans. They spend a lot of time in the suburban area and have the higher density 3 x 2 seating to suit. I can't see a seat change happening, not that I would complain if it actually happened. The OSCars may end up back in the metropolitan area like the OSTs once a real V set replacement arrives, if that ever happens Razz

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