V Set Replacement

 
  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong

no joke and I should have said for people taking Prams, trolleys and disabled persons. already v sets run off the edge of platforms in many places in the mountains. also the blue mountains don't need high patronage double decks if you can put 8 single decks.
"jedimasterc"

I catch it regularly, and at different times of the day. Generally there plenty of seats down to Springwood, after that it gets crowded and only standing room from Emu Plains, especially during peaks.

Which means, a AGV style train could do all west of Springwood with only a couple limited stops east of Springwood. (Penrith, Parramatta, Strathfield...) All station service east of Springwood could be then just serviced with wide gauge sets.

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  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned

no joke and I should have said for people taking Prams, trolleys and disabled persons. already v sets run off the edge of platforms in many places in the mountains. also the blue mountains don't need high patronage double decks if you can put 8 single decks.
"jedimasterc"

I catch it regularly, and at different times of the day. Generally there plenty of seats down to Springwood, after that it gets crowded and only standing room from Emu Plains, especially during peaks.

Which means, a AGV style train could do all west of Springwood with only a couple limited stops east of Springwood. (Penrith, Parramatta, Strathfield...) All station service east of Springwood could be then just serviced with wide gauge sets.
"johnboy"


The beauty is that the agv can run more then just 8 carriages. Since the v sets already over run stations on the blue mountains I see no issue with a 10 car agv set running in peak.
  Brianr Assistant Commissioner

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
8 car V-sets usually only have the front door of the first car off the platform in the upper mountains. There are signs on platforms and most regular commuters are aware of this. It would be far more hassle if the whole front car or more was off the platform.
  A78 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
yeah i dont think cityrail will have single deck intercity but what will happen is the new trains will have a vestuible seating like in every suburban train and oscars.

they maybe smaller length cars so they can fit more cars or just run 4 cars and have MORE services?
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
they maybe smaller length cars so they can fit more cars or just run 4 cars and have MORE services?
"A78"


While this would be of more benefit from a customers point of view, the trains will also fill up quicker, and will quickly become a victim of their own success - sure there's another service in 15/30 minutes, but if you've already waited 10-15 minutes for that train to arrive, you're going to be less than impressed with waiting even longer for another train, which might or might not also be full.

Plus, a more frequent service will play havoc with the freight across the mountains - because of the lack of passing places, it's rather difficult to get freight over the mountains between the existing passenger services.
  A78 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
they maybe smaller length cars so they can fit more cars or just run 4 cars and have MORE services?
"A78"


While this would be of more benefit from a customers point of view, the trains will also fill up quicker, and will quickly become a victim of their own success - sure there's another service in 15/30 minutes, but if you've already waited 10-15 minutes for that train to arrive, you're going to be less than impressed with waiting even longer for another train, which might or might not also be full.

Plus, a more frequent service will play havoc with the freight across the mountains - because of the lack of passing places, it's rather difficult to get freight over the mountains between the existing passenger services.
"Raichase"
yeah so cityrail may have to stick with the 8 Car peak but what happens if they are shorter and not longer? where the seating in the middle deck is removed lose seating but make more room for the train to fit.

Edit : Like an Oscar H Set?

and anyone who says they should have buffet car it WONT happen if it would the Oscar would already have it and it wouldent fit in the narrow train
  A78 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
I was going to  say a full 8-car double deck where you can sit anywhere on the train and get off at any station like  SP1r SP4 & SP6 just by going into the right carriage when its near the time to get off.  but then intercity services dont need 8 cars in off-peak maybe Full 6-Car? instead of 4+4 and just have a few extra services? because dont freight only operate at night and off-peak ?
  R44 Chief Commissioner

Location: Moving paper
I was going to  say a full 8-car double deck where you can sit anywhere on the train and get off at any station like  SP1r SP4 & SP6 just by going into the right carriage when its near the time to get off.  but then intercity services dont need 8 cars in off-peak maybe Full 6-Car? instead of 4+4 and just have a few extra services? because dont freight only operate at night and off-peak ?
"A78"


Will you stop it?  

Make suggestions, By all means. Now, Let me pull this to bits

I was going to  say a full 8-car double deck where you can sit anywhere on the train and get off at any station like  SP1r SP4 & SP6 just by going into the right carriage when its near the time to get off.
"A78"


Oh, Right, You mean like the waratah, Yeah?

There are ways to do this, But that would actually mean Re-Consisting the existing V Sets.

but then intercity services dont need 8 cars in off-peak maybe Full 6-Car?


Hey look, A capital letter!

In other words: S P 4, What does that mean, Does that mean a 6 car train is going to fit in the existing platforms? Look, Unless you are going to fund the extensions, 4 cars is the best option off peak.

instead of 4+4 and just have a few extra services? because dont freight only operate at night and off-peak ?


I am not actually going to answer this, as I do not know. Where is 42101 when you need him.
  A78 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
I was going to  say a full 8-car double deck where you can sit anywhere on the train and get off at any station like  SP1r SP4 & SP6 just by going into the right carriage when its near the time to get off.  but then intercity services dont need 8 cars in off-peak maybe Full 6-Car? instead of 4+4 and just have a few extra services? because dont freight only operate at night and off-peak ?
"A78"


Will you stop it?  

Make suggestions, By all means. Now, Let me pull this to bits

I was going to  say a full 8-car double deck where you can sit anywhere on the train and get off at any station like  SP1r SP4 & SP6 just by going into the right carriage when its near the time to get off.
"A78"


Oh, Right, You mean like the waratah, Yeah?

There are ways to do this, But that would actually mean Re-Consisting the existing V Sets.

but then intercity services dont need 8 cars in off-peak maybe Full 6-Car?


Hey look, A capital letter!

In other words: S P 4, What does that mean, Does that mean a 6 car train is going to fit in the existing platforms? Look, Unless you are going to fund the extensions, 4 cars is the best option off peak.

instead of 4+4 and just have a few extra services? because dont freight only operate at night and off-peak ?


I am not actually going to answer this, as I do not know. Where is 42101 when you need him.
"R44"


Who is 42101? and sorry for my mistakes with capital lettering etc. but with the 6-Car it would be a full length without the usual 3+3 and 4+2 it would be MTTTTM and the two middle carriages could be like the waratah where it has pantographs in the middle two carriages for extra power

Edit: the 6-Car wont fit on SP4 Platforms but with this train you could walk to the correct carraige and wait to get off
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
it would be MTTTTM and the two middle carriages could be like the waratah where it has pantographs in the middle two carriages for extra power
"A78"


I think you'd better understand how a train works before you go "inventing" new trains. Extra pantographs =/= extra power.
  R44 Chief Commissioner

Location: Moving paper
Who is 42101? and sorry for my mistakes with capital lettering etc. but with the 6-Car it would be a full length without the usual 3+3 and 4+2 it would be MTTTTM and the two middle carriages could be like the waratah where it has pantographs in the middle two carriages for extra power

Edit: the 6-Car wont fit on SP4 Platforms but with this train you could walk to the correct carraige and wait to get off
"A78"


42101 is knowledgeable in freight. Enough said.

Correct, A 6 car train will not fit in a 4 car platform. Passengers are lazy, If passengers are getting off at Zig-Zag for example. They WILL travel in the back car, and wait to get off. Having a 6 car train on an off peak run is not a good idea.
  A78 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
it would be MTTTTM and the two middle carriages could be like the waratah where it has pantographs in the middle two carriages for extra power
"A78"


I think you'd better understand how a train works before you go "inventing" new trains. Extra pantographs =/= extra power.
"Raichase"
Oh Ok  how much pantographs would a 6-car train need?.
  A78 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
Who is 42101? and sorry for my mistakes with capital lettering etc. but with the 6-Car it would be a full length without the usual 3+3 and 4+2 it would be MTTTTM and the two middle carriages could be like the waratah where it has pantographs in the middle two carriages for extra power

Edit: the 6-Car wont fit on SP4 Platforms but with this train you could walk to the correct carraige and wait to get off
"A78"


42101 is knowledgeable in freight. Enough said.

Correct, A 6 car train will not fit in a 4 car platform. Passengers are lazy, If passengers are getting off at Zig-Zag for example. They WILL travel in the back car, and wait to get off. Having a 6 car train on an off peak run is not a good idea.
"R44"
Ok, yeah i saw 42101 in a tread and he was banned. are 6-car trains good for anything or is it better to have 4-car trains
  Highrise Assistant Commissioner

it would be MTTTTM and the two middle carriages could be like the waratah where it has pantographs in the middle two carriages for extra power
"A78"


I think you'd better understand how a train works before you go "inventing" new trains. Extra pantographs =/= extra power.
"Raichase"
You don't really need 4 pantographs for 4 powered cars. Xtraps in Melbourne are a prime example of this. The extra pantograph is more of a guarantee that their is uninterrupted power going to the train.
  gilberations Assistant Commissioner

Location: Lithgow
Frieght travels accross the mountains all day everyday (nearly everyday anyway).

The problem with passing loops is supposedly going to be solved with the "Bell's Expressway" project by creating a dedicated freight line along the highway corridor. Mind you, this has been on the drawing board for a LONG time...
  A78 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
it would be MTTTTM and the two middle carriages could be like the waratah where it has pantographs in the middle two carriages for extra power
"A78"


I think you'd better understand how a train works before you go "inventing" new trains. Extra pantographs =/= extra power.
"Raichase"
You don't really need 4 pantographs for 4 powered cars. Xtraps in Melbourne are a prime example of this. The extra pantograph is more of a guarantee that their is uninterrupted power going to the train.
"Highrise"
this is for a 6-Car train M-T-T-T-T-M NOT M-T-M-M-T-M or M-T-T-M-T-M
  PDCL Chief Train Controller

this is for a 6-Car train M-T-T-T-T-M NOT M-T-M-M-T-M or M-T-T-M-T-M
"A78"


A78, I think you better go visit some high-school physics text books.  Unless you are using wood (or a similarly poor conductor) for the wiring in your train, having 1 pantograph or 1 million won't make a lick of difference to the amount of power available to the train.

There are a few reasons you might have multiple panto's, one is (as has been mentioned with the x-traps) to guarantee supply generally due to older overhead catenary that moves a lot more than more modern set ups.  Another is due a lack of an internal power cable to distribute the power along the train, this can be for a few reasons, one is if you're re-marshalling cars a lot then hooking up a power cable can be tedious and in-efficient (although there are many ways around this) also safety can be a concern with certain set ups.

The short answer to your question is a 6 car train needs as many panto's as 1 car train which is as many as a 10 or 100 car train, it's one.  A great example of this is the French TGV's (10 car, 8pax and a loco at each end) which run at 300+km/h with only one panto raised.
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
I was thinking that maybe there would be more penrith to lithgow services and a few peak lithgow to city services, similar to what happens on the southern highlands line.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
You don't really need 4 pantographs for 4 powered cars. Xtraps in Melbourne are a prime example of this. The extra pantograph is more of a guarantee that their is uninterrupted power going to the train.
"Highrise"


You've missed my point, he's suggesting that this magical train can't get over the mountains with two motor cars and four trailer cars unless it has a magical extra pantograph or two. Which would be meaningless.
  Highrise Assistant Commissioner

You don't really need 4 pantographs for 4 powered cars. Xtraps in Melbourne are a prime example of this. The extra pantograph is more of a guarantee that their is uninterrupted power going to the train.
"Highrise"


You've missed my point, he's suggesting that this magical train can't get over the mountains with two motor cars and four trailer cars unless it has a magical extra pantograph or two. Which would be meaningless.
"Raichase"
Ahhah, I see. A78, basicall the way the Waratah works is TMMTTMMT, so there is 4 motor cars for an 8 car train, as was said, you can stick 4000000000 pantographs on a train with only 2 motor cars and 4 trailers, and all it'll mean is that you are drawing excellent current, but the whole train is too underpowered.

MTMMTM is the bare minimum for a 6 car train. Any less and your reaching the realms of underpowered. Ideally you would want every car to have a motor.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Ahhah, I see. A79, [...]
"Highrise"


I commend you for persisting! Once this chap decided to redesign the trains over the Blue Mountains without even the most basic idea of how a train worked, it seemed beyond hope.
  Highrise Assistant Commissioner

Ahhah, I see. A79, [...]
"Highrise"


I commend you for persisting! Once this chap decided to redesign the trains over the Blue Mountains without even the most basic idea of how a train worked, it seemed beyond hope.
"Raichase"
People with no clue are killing this website. Why not educate them a tad. If they still bang on about their own little world of make believe after it's been explained in clear english, that's when all hope is lost.  Wink
  R44 Chief Commissioner

Location: Moving paper


MTMMTM is the bare minimum for a 6 car train. Any less and your reaching the realms of underpowered. Ideally you would want every car to have a motor.
"Highrise"


Ok, Question, How come Some R sets (the now converted to S sets ones) were M-T-T-M-T-M?
  Highrise Assistant Commissioner



MTMMTM is the bare minimum for a 6 car train. Any less and your reaching the realms of underpowered. Ideally you would want every car to have a motor.
"Highrise"


Ok, Question, How come Some R sets (the now converted to S sets ones) were M-T-T-M-T-M?
"R44"
I never said MTTMTM was under powered, I said it was entering the realms of underpowered, there is a lot variables to take into account. The differences between a standard R and super 6 is noticable when driving them.
Personally, I felt standard R's to be underpowered, but with that said, they are able to handle any grade in Sydney, obviously the traction motors are up to the task, albeit sometimes a bit of a struggle.
  UP9372 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
An R set is nothing more than an S set with a power car and a trailer missing so it is no more, or less powered than an S set. The Rocket R sets were a different beast as they were basically a S set with 2 x trailer cars missing and thus had less weight to pull around. ie CTCCTC.

All this nonsense about a V set replacement. What we will get is basically, perhaps, a tarted up narrower OSCAR.

The V sets do not really meet disability access rules with their narrow access doors and were really designed to load passengers on at a terminal and take the passengers to another terminal with a few intermediate stops.

Now they are being used more like a suburban set and they take a long time for passengers to load and unload from the train. Also, wheelchairs are confined to the end vestibules creating further problems for passengers wishing alight from or board a V set.

Railcorp should retain and refurbish the cars that were last built for long distance runs, but ditch the rest once they completely wear out. City Rail could consider running some Blue Mountains services with refurbished V sets which do not stop at Penrith and only stop at say Katoomba, Mount Victoria and Lithgow.  This would considerably speed up these services.

This would also postpone having to build a narrower OSCAR for a while. Springwood would be adaquately serviced by the OSCARs.

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