Transperth questions

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Mouse Chief Train Controller

Location:
1. What is the actual purpose of signal 315 (just west of Thomas Street on the Fremantle line, facing traffic into Perth but on the ex-Perth line)?

2. What is with the yellow boxes at the edge of most Perth railway stations? I know on some stations (Shenton Park, Subiaco, Maylands) it seems to be a replacement for the old 'Keep Clear' box next to the train doors, but at other stations there is only one place that often is not aligned to the doors.
 
1213Driver Chief Commissioner

Location: Perth Western Australia
1. What is the actual purpose of signal 315 (just west of Thomas Street on the Fremantle line, facing traffic into Perth but on the ex-Perth line)?

2. What is with the yellow boxes at the edge of most Perth railway stations? I know on some stations (Shenton Park, Subiaco, Maylands) it seems to be a replacement for the old 'Keep Clear' box next to the train doors, but at other stations there is only one place that often is not aligned to the doors.
- Mouse


Signal 315 is currently a "Fixed at Red" within West Leederville "station limits".

It allows for any movements that are to return towards Fremantle from West Leederville, to use the crossover from the Down main (city bound) to the Up main and protects movement in the wrong direction towards City West, beyond the required space to turn a set of cars.
 
SKVT Junior Train Controller

Location: Iapetus
Does that make it a directing signal or an illuminated station limits board?
(apologies to rule 24)
 
1213Driver Chief Commissioner

Location: Perth Western Australia
Does that make it a directing signal or an illuminated station limits board?
(apologies to rule 24)
- SKVT


Ah Neither!

As they are "within" Station limits it cannot be a Station limits board.

A directing signal is just that - a signal which directs you to another position/location.

It is a "fixed at red" as such but i guess you could compare it to being more like a "illuminated" limit of shunt board, though some of them have shunt lights for limited movements so thus they are not a limit of shunt either - they are a Fixed signal "Fixed at Red".

There a few of these on the network - another prominent one being 258 in city  - Also found at Fremantle, West Leederville Whitfords, Stirling, Rockingham, Cockburn & Esplanade
 
1213Driver Chief Commissioner

Location: Perth Western Australia
2. What is with the yellow boxes at the edge of most Perth railway stations? I know on some stations (Shenton Park, Subiaco, Maylands) it seems to be a replacement for the old 'Keep Clear' box next to the train doors, but at other stations there is only one place that often is not aligned to the doors.
- Mouse


Do you mean the yellow boxes painted on the surface of the platform edges?
 
Mouse Chief Train Controller

Location:
Sorry, should have been clearer. I meant the square 'patterns' that are embedded into the platform using the yellow-line pavers (at nearly all stations with tactile pavers), such as visible at the right platform edgeon http://wastations.i8.com/Maylands_Station.html

At some older stations, they are all the way down the platform, but at most that have them, there are only one or two.
 
1213Driver Chief Commissioner

Location: Perth Western Australia
1. What is the actual purpose of signal 315 (just west of Thomas Street on the Fremantle line, facing traffic into Perth but on the ex-Perth line)?.
- Mouse


Signal 315 is currently a "Fixed at Red" within West Leederville "station limits".

It allows for any movements that are to return towards Fremantle from West Leederville, to use the crossover from the Down main (city bound) to the Up main and protects movement in the wrong direction towards City West, beyond the required space to turn a set of cars.
- 1213Driver


This Move descibred above saw use today on the Fremantle line with the line closures in the City causing some unusual operating on all lines.

Freo Trains initially started turning at Daglish by Zig Zagging from the down platform via the siding to the Up platform. All movements being authorised by control as this sort of move is not set up under signals. Later Freo trains extended through to West Leederville from about 1115 and commenced shunt as per the above description.
 
Mouse Chief Train Controller

Location:
New round of questions:
1. Why has the speed limit on the to-Fremantle line been dropped to 55 km/h past Cottesloe?
2. What is going on between Leederville and the Roe Street tunnel? Why are they relocating the masts? (and why are they using the steel ones... stick out like a sore thumb when its all concrete in that area...)
 
Wallip Chief Commissioner

Location: Perth
I like the idea of this thread.

My curiosity - Is there any particular reason why the speed on the Northern Suburbs line cannot be raise to 130km/h to match the Mandurah line and the B sets capabilities?

Cheers
 
62440 Deputy Commissioner

Perth Yard is part of the HUB project to sink a short section of railway and allow King St to become a through road, closing the Horseshoe to heavy traffic. In theory this will allow a flow of people from Northbridge to Perth.
The works at the channel 7 which is being demolished is to divert the bus lanes to allow the railway to be reinstated. This will be a temporary arrangement so Armadale to Freo would run through and Midland terminate while the dive is being constructed. I understand this is the permanent solution after the Freo reconnects with the Midland.
Then there is the matter of the scissors crossover which has to be totally remodelled including reversing the crossover in the Mandurah dive.
Steel masts are temporary, they are on bolted bases so they can be reused. Expect a few disruptions to service. Existing tracks on the Freo line next to Roe St I expect to be removed.
At least, this is how I understand it.
 
Mouse Chief Train Controller

Location:
Perth Yard is part of the HUB project to sink a short section of railway and allow King St to become a through road, closing the Horseshoe to heavy traffic. In theory this will allow a flow of people from Northbridge to Perth.
The works at the channel 7 which is being demolished is to divert the bus lanes to allow the railway to be reinstated. This will be a temporary arrangement so Armadale to Freo would run through and Midland terminate while the dive is being constructed. I understand this is the permanent solution after the Freo reconnects with the Midland.
Then there is the matter of the scissors crossover which has to be totally remodelled including reversing the crossover in the Mandurah dive.
Steel masts are temporary, they are on bolted bases so they can be reused. Expect a few disruptions to service. Existing tracks on the Freo line next to Roe St I expect to be removed.
At least, this is how I understand it.
- 62440


Sorry, I meant the other side of Roe Street tunnel - where they were doing safety barrier replacement a month ago.
 
Northmetro Junior Train Controller

I like the idea of this thread.

My curiosity - Is there any particular reason why the speed on the Northern Suburbs line cannot be raise to 130km/h to match the Mandurah line and the B sets capabilities?

Cheers
- Wallip


There could be a number of reasons. The two most likely are curvature and signal spacing. The curves for example at Stirling and Joondalup are subject to speed restrictions because of the radius of curves. Increasing speed adds to risk of derailment, reduces passenger comfort and increases rail wear.

If the original signals were spaced for 110km/h without much of an extra braking distance margin, it would be very expensive and disruptive to move the signals - and this could also reduce capacity of the line somewhat.
 
Wallip Chief Commissioner

Location: Perth
Valid

However, Speeds can be altered for certain sectors of the route. The Mandurah line slows to 120km/h for the curves around Secret Harbour. There is still plenty of the line from Leederville to Currambine that seems like it could cope with higher speeds.
Also, how do signals make a difference? they are spaced further apart than on the Mandurah line. Is this a goof thing, or a bad thing? I would have thought if everyone is doing the same speed, then spacing wouldnt matter.

Cheers
 
WAGR_trains Assistant Commissioner

I like the idea of this thread.

My curiosity - Is there any particular reason why the speed on the Northern Suburbs line cannot be raise to 130km/h to match the Mandurah line and the B sets capabilities?

Cheers
- Wallip


They would need to do some serious trackworks in areas, and remove some of the older wooden sleepers on the line
 
witzendoz Junior Train Controller

Location: Fremantle
What is going on between Leederville and the Roe Street tunnel? Why are they relocating the masts? (and why are they using the steel ones... stick out like a sore thumb when its all concrete in that area...)
- A user


I was there Sunday, actually going to the WAFL game at Leederville oval which made the Sunday shutdown of the Joondaulp line inconvenient, It looks like they are putting in a turn back siding so that trains can turn back north without going into the city.  This could be part of the sinking of Perth Station when they disrupt the Joondaulp line so that trains can run from Leederville north?

Alan
 
Northmetro Junior Train Controller

Couldn't see much from road level (and it will be a few days before I go through on the train again) but the individual OHL masts have been replaced by gantry structures and it looks like there is space for 3 sets of equipment. A turnback seems to make sense with all the work coming up, but I wonder whether a couple of crossovers at the north end of Leederville wouldn't have been easier.

I hope this is only planned for off-peak use. Transferring a trainload of people to buses at Leederville every 5 minutes will be a bit of a stretch for a single footbridge. Unless, of course the Perth buses use Glendalough.
 
Northmetro Junior Train Controller

Northbound track has been shifted closer to the freeway and a section of the existing track remains - looks as if it is adequate for a 6 car train. No connections have been laid in to the main lines yet, so I suppose we will be a couple more weekends without trains some time in the future. It certainly looks as if it will be a turnback siding
 
Mouse Chief Train Controller

Location:
Yeah, looks like a turnback to me - just connecting the dots:
-northbound track has been moved south, but most of the original track remains
-a few 'double-masts' such as always occurs at turnouts, but currently with no wiring attached, located at either end of the remaining track.
-gantry structures clearly look as if they have provision for a third power cable above the old track, including a doubled-up support close to Leederville station if I remember correctly.

Certainly sounds like some variety of turnback... bit of a shame really it wasn't in place for the Shutdown all those years ago as it would've saved all that temporary signalling mess. Although that said, irregular train movements are always fun to observe Very Happy
 
witzendoz Junior Train Controller

Location: Fremantle
I see the overcrowding trains issue is back in the paper today.  Reading the story it seems that the biggest problem is as the trains get closer to the city, as you would expect.

Would one solution be to run more shuttle type trains between say Whitfords & Cockburn (Joondalup / Mandurah lines) and Claremont and Bayswater (Fremantle / Midland lines) or even a couple of stations in from these suggestions making a shorter trip. I'm thinking that even if there was a 3 car shuttle running it would take the load off the trains coming in already full from the outer suburbs. The short shuttles would mean more trips with the quicker turn arounds.

I know we need extra trains to do this but maybe the next trains to be delivered could set this up? Any thoughts on this?

Alan.
 
SKVT Junior Train Controller

Location: Iapetus
Seems like a sensible idea. Short workings have been commonly used in other systems, and were a even regular feature of Suburban workings  in WAGR/Westrail days. I suspect the factor working against their greater use is the lack of Railcars and possibly lack of crew, although the latter does not seem to be a problem at the moment.  It is perhaps a little unfortunate that there is no capacity to run long diesel hauled sets into and out of Perth to help relieve overcrowding. I appreciate it would create untold operational headaches but it would be nice too see some real trains on the surburban.  I for one would love to re experience a Gosnells flyer thundering over the Kenwick flyover, ride the breathlessly imaptient  8.02 from Midland to Perth as it sprinted through Creco Curve, or stand at Subi Up platform and watch a DA storm the grade at the East end with a clutch of carriages in hot unwilling pursuit.
 
Mouse Chief Train Controller

Location:
I see the overcrowding trains issue is back in the paper today.  Reading the story it seems that the biggest problem is as the trains get closer to the city, as you would expect.

Would one solution be to run more shuttle type trains between say Whitfords & Cockburn (Joondalup / Mandurah lines) and Claremont and Bayswater (Fremantle / Midland lines) or even a couple of stations in from these suggestions making a shorter trip. I'm thinking that even if there was a 3 car shuttle running it would take the load off the trains coming in already full from the outer suburbs. The short shuttles would mean more trips with the quicker turn arounds.

I know we need extra trains to do this but maybe the next trains to be delivered could set this up? Any thoughts on this?
- witzendoz


Bear in mind we already have the Whit/Cockburn shuttle every ten minutes during peak hour (and formerly off-peak... oh how I love Colin Barnett!), but yeah - support the idea. My (armchair-expert) plans:

Clarkson-Mandurah line
-Upgrade all services to 6-carriage during peak hour
-Reintroduce off-peak shuttles
-Transfer Greenwood to the W pattern, C pattern now stops all Clarkson - Whitfords, Warwick, Stirling, Perth, etc.
-Slight frequency upgrade during peak hour (?) - every 4 mins to Whitfords & Cockburn, 8 mins to Mandurah & Clarkson perhaps?

Armadale/Thornlie line
-All four carriage trains
-Trains every ten minutes to each destination during peak

Fremantle-Midland line
-Convert B-pattern services to shuttles, terminating at Bassendean and Claremont (signal alterations required to allow wrong-line working from the Showgrounds crossover). Bassendean already has a crossover facility.
-Transfer Ashfield to the B-pattern
-Frequency upgrades to the same frequency as the currnet Clarkson/Mandurah and Cockburn/Whitfords lines
-All four carriage trains
-Allow for the Bassendean shuttle to be redirected to the airport line in the future.

Oh, and new lines - but that's another matter.

As i say, this is just an armchair planner's dreams! So feel free to pick out any holes etc.

I doubt though that just the next batch of trains could achieve even a more modest proposal though, given the braindead decision to only order trains for the new lines. I doubt that the A-sets freed up could even strengthen every current service to 4 cars, let alone introduce more services! Though I would love to know exactly what differences there are between a B-series and a QR x60 that allow the latter to be run tram-style, but not the former...[/list]
 
Jarroo Chief Commissioner

Hopefully the decision makers at PTA read this forum and review some of the ideas, as there seems to be no ideas that are making any difference coming from the PTA boardroom.
Perth only has a small population, but its obvious the system cannot cope in peak hour and in fact will get worse.
Maybe someone from PTA can go to some other cities on the world that run and urban network and see how they carry large passenger numbers in peakhour without mass overcrowding.
The Perth system might be World class in non peak hour times, but unfortunately, World Class is measured by a systems ability to cope in peak hour.
 
Mouse Chief Train Controller

Location:
Just thinking actually, it'd probably be best to install a turnback at Bassendean - plenty of space there looking at Nearmap (and also build one at Claremont if there's room - they'd need to move the track but it would smooth out that 50kph curve a bit!. Alternatively they could reopen the former side platform...) Reason being that if we want decent frequencies, it is far better to get the train out of the way and into a siding so that it can't get in the way of other services...
 
Mouse Chief Train Controller

Location:

Maybe someone from PTA can go to some other cities on the world that run and urban network and see how they carry large passenger numbers in peakhour without mass overcrowding.
- Jarroo


Might at well send Buswell and co. as well - they seem part of the puzzle as well. (Maybe they should only be booked a one-way ticket, with the return dependant on ordering more carriages for all lines? Not much of an incentive I know, but it might work with enough persuasion... OK, actually it was just tongue in cheek)

Just make sure they leave Australia, don't want them getting any ideas from Adelaide. And there are far batter examples than the eastern states as well...
 
Q4004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Thornlie
Just thinking actually, it'd probably be best to install a turnback at Bassendean - plenty of space there looking at Nearmap (and also build one at Claremont if there's room - they'd need to move the track but it would smooth out that 50kph curve a bit!. Alternatively they could reopen the former side platform...) Reason being that if we want decent frequencies, it is far better to get the train out of the way and into a siding so that it can't get in the way of other services...
- Mouse

Trains can already turn around at Bassendean. Theres a track from the Midland bound platform onto the Perth bound side of the track and its wired.
 

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