Steam engine water levels and injectors

 
  Railnthusiast Chief Commissioner

Location: At the computer
Hi,
I work on steam engines, but the ones I work on are reatively simple, don't have to move far and don't run on coal.
I wanted to ask a variety of questions
1. When driving a steam engine the water level would move with the train (that would be inevitable). How does the person accuratley read the water glass? Does the water "bounce" from bottom to top repeatedly?
2. If the water is bouncing around so much and you can not tell where it is AND you happen to be on a hill, what stops the fusibles from going off? Is this a case of "guessing" and adding more water than you think you will need?
3. What does a blower do? Is this self explanitory?
4. I do sort of understand this as I know people who own engines with exhaust ejectors, but what do the do other than send all your steam up the exhaust stack? Wouldn't it be easier to grab the blow off valve?
5. Is a coal grate the same as a wood grate but smaller? I have seen them before but I just can't remember, it's been so long and the engine was running as well, so views where limited.
6. Can someone please properly explain the brick arches found in some fireboxes? The engines I work on are too small to properly warrent a brick arch.

Thanks, I look forward to hearing from you all. I know some people will know this off by heart Laughing .
I hope this is in the right place as I was not sure where to put it and I thought most boilers are preserved anyway!
Railnthusiast

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  skitz Chief Commissioner

Ok, will have a go.

1.  yes the water moves with the pitch and roll of the engine.  Water to the front going down and to the back going up.  Its a matter of experience and interpretation.  Its not as bad as you imagine.  Knowing to road helps.  The water can slosh, but you get used to it.  Any fireman knows the importance of ensuring the kettle does not run out of water.

2.  There are reaonable margines between losing the water and the plug but this vaies from engine to engine - experience and competence is the rule.

3. The blow provide artificial draft for the boiler when the engine is not actually working.  No where near the draft of the actual engine but enough to bring the fire to life (keep fire out of cab etc)

4. Dont really know what you are getting at here, maybe rephrase.  If you are refering to smokebox ejectors I have had no real experience with them.  Others may care to explain, I though thier purpose was to stir the soot/fly ash up in the smoke box and encourage its path up the stack.

5. Grates are similar to look at but are ultimately set up for the fuel they use.  Not just wood v coal but different types of coal.  An engine is set up for conditions not only at the grate.

6.  The purpose of the brick arch is a few things.  One is the increases the length of the gas path and allows more time for combustion to take place.  2nd is to force the gas path to cover more of the fire box structure and get more benefit of heat exchange in the fire box.  Third is to keep cold air from direct path to the tube plate and minimise thermal shock to this area.

Hope this helps you on your way.
  matt_c17 Chief Train Controller

Location: Around here somewhere...
Hi. Hopefully something further to add:

1. The general rule is to carry about half a glass. The variations due to inertia are usually not tooo great, and you can 'average out' between top and bottom. Obviously if you about to go downhill you need more water to keep the crown covered. As skitz said, a fireman's road knowledge/engine knowledge and experience will manage this.

2. The rule we use on minature boilers is that the bottom of the glass must be 10% of the total distance from crown to wrapper above the crown, i.e. if there is 60mm from the crown to the top of the boiler, the bottom of the glass must be more than 6mm higher than the crown. Remember if you do expose the crown, the plug wont go immediately, but is still undesirable, as you will shorten the life of the plug, which should be changed each boiler inspection, anyway.

3. As skitz said!

4. Are you not referring to the blast pipe? Which as steam exhausts from the cylinder, allows it to induce a strong draught on the fire (what the blower does when you are not steaming).

5. What skitz said. However I have tried with reasonable success, running my 5" loco on several different fuels. I do have two different types of grate I can run, as well, as 'rosebud' and a straight bar grate. I normally run char, but have successfully run black coal on the rosebud, even burnt wood when nothing else is available. The noticable difference with wood is you burn more, lots lots more and get more sparks, but it gives plenty of instant heat.

6. What skitz said!!

Matt.
  G41 Chief Commissioner

Location: Footplate of any K class
As above. But I will add one thing. It's not about "guessing" where your water is. Footplate crews must ALWAYS know where your water is. A Firemans job isn't just about keeping good fire and water management, its also about knowing where you are, what's ahead etc. Always think 3 steps ahead, know when to put a fire on, know when you need water, and most of all communicate!

Question, where is it that you operate these engines? Feel free to PM if you don't wish to disclose it
  G41 Chief Commissioner

Location: Footplate of any K class
As above. But I will add one thing. It's not about "guessing" where your water is. Footplate crews must ALWAYS know where your water is. A Firemans job isn't just about keeping good fire and water management, its also about knowing where you are, what's ahead etc. Always think 3 steps ahead, know when to put a fire on, know when you need water, and most of all communicate!

Question, where is it that you operate these engines? Feel free to PM if you don't wish to disclose it
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
One important principle.

The three most important things for a steam engine are:-
Water,
Water,
and
Water.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
A few of the things from the  following might help http://coalstonewcastle.com.au/manual/documents/

Seems to be read on line or purchase as noted on that person's site

eg

Operation and Management of Steam Locomotives - A guide and Book of Special Instructions of Locomotive Engine Drivers, Firemen and Trainee Enginemen - Part I - 1961 - This publication was issued to railway staff to provide guidance on the operation of steam Locomotives. - ©RailCorp 1961 12.35 MB


Operation and Management of Steam Locomotives - A guide and Book of Special Instructions of Locomotive Engine Drivers, Firemen and Trainee Enginemen - Part II - 1963 - This publication was issued to railway staff to provide guidance on the operation of steam Locomotives. - ©RailCorp 1963 23.21 MB
  Railnthusiast Chief Commissioner

Location: At the computer
Thanks for all your explanations.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I never really saw water bouncing in a gauge no matter speed, engine roughness or otherwise.  

Having a half glass of water was never considered to be more than a basic  comfort area when on any sort working locomotive, half glass was fine when setting your engine up for departure from a yard, especially garratts ex BMD yard with fulll loads.  

It was always taught to maintain at least a 3/4 level in the glass, on flat & light steaming which meant you had safey margins for any harder grade ahead & to keep the fire set & steam pressure at max, without unnecessary blowing off.  Whe going up a grade with regulator open the gauges showed more than actual water in the boiler & the drivers side gauge had a different measure to it, I forget the actual term used, but actually meant it was more a stable read of the water. If you had a 3/4 glass & shut off. it would drop to around 2/3rds.

When in working, the blower was always kept on even when steaming hard, as it helped with burning the coal more in an even manner then having it turned off, & less likely to clinker the fire, only time it was ever turned right off was when stabled, as it helped ensure minimal water use & loss, in these locations including depots, 3/4 was the minmum to be maintained in the boiler.

Different loco's had different grates owing to the variance in the firebox size including dimensions. There's a lot of good information in most of the specific class books on sale or were.

AS a fireman, much of our early learning was very much dependant on having good drivers to help you with basic road knowledge & to know where the grades were.  In basic training you worked 4 trial trips with an inspector who showed you how to fire, & pointed out various tips as did the driver with you. After those trips if you passed you went out on 80hours, learning, which meant you had to do a minimum of 80 hours of actual in cab fireing experience which was on low level goods, & local passenger working, it primarilly meant working trip & local gods trains & on yard shunters.

Once you got that time in you went back cleaning before progressing to B trials which was on deep sea/long distance working, & qualified for 36, 38cl & other shovel engienes on all main lines out of your depot.

Steam, water, were balancing acts & you learnt by experience & took in every tip you could.

Steam Ejector, I presume the issue is the ejector system as on 3616 the Giesel Oblong Ejector, do a wikin on it.

AS for the fuseable plugs, again this is dependant on the water in boiler which has to stay above the plug lines.  Basically it comes back to the amount of water showing in the gauge glasses.  If there is water showing in the glass then you are ok. If the water cannot be seem then you need to test if the gauge is faultly. This is done by closing the lever to the side of the glass, & open the drain cock under the gauge glass at the bottom of the fitting.

This drains all water from the glass, & the isolating handle keeps the gauge closed preventing water from the boiler from entering the gauge. Close the drain cock, & then close the isolating cock, this should bring water back into the glass, if nothing happens then there is likely to be a problem.

When water gets low the importance is to get the water level up, even use the two injectors.  A crew should never allow the water to get below the bottom level in the gauge which is the bottom of the sight glass.  At that point all is ok as with the exception of old 30cl & others, there is at least 2-3 inches between the bottom of the site glass & the bottom level of the water inflow.

One other aspect of the brick arch (& skitz has described it well) is that as engines fitted with brick arches generally have larger fire box & grate areas, drawing the fire & heat along & under the arch, in front of the firebox door, & then over the top of the arch, helps in keeping out cold air from entering through the firehole door.  While having the door open helps with certain coals, in the combustion as well as keeps down the smoke level, it is the opposite on other types of coal.  Likewise certain steam locomotives were fired with the door totally open all the time & others partially open.
  anuddernut Locomotive Fireman

Location: Near the beach
When in working, the blower was always kept on even when steaming hard, as it helped with burning the coal more in an even manner then having it turned off, & less likely to clinker the fire, only time it was ever turned right off was when stabled, as it helped ensure minimal water use & loss, in these locations including depots, 3/4 was the minmum to be maintained in the boiler.

.
"a6et"


I am interested in your theory as to use of the blower to reduce clinker.  At the railway where I volunteer the continual use of the blower is discouraged but I tend to use it all the time and I don't get the clinker problems that others get.  I had never put it down to my use of the blower.  Do you know the theory behind the use of the blower reducing clinker?
  a6et Minister for Railways

When in working, the blower was always kept on even when steaming hard, as it helped with burning the coal more in an even manner then having it turned off, & less likely to clinker the fire, only time it was ever turned right off was when stabled, as it helped ensure minimal water use & loss, in these locations including depots, 3/4 was the minmum to be maintained in the boiler.

.
"a6et"


I am interested in your theory as to use of the blower to reduce clinker.  At the railway where I volunteer the continual use of the blower is discouraged but I tend to use it all the time and I don't get the clinker problems that others get.  I had never put it down to my use of the blower.  Do you know the theory behind the use of the blower reducing clinker?
"anuddernut"


I cannot say what the theory is behind it however, I for one never had clinker problems when working steam in regular service from 64 -73. the only time I had problems was with a couple of old 50cl on shunting jobs that you did not use the blower on as much, & for much of the shift, it was barelly cracked just enough to stop smoke from coming into the cab.

On this particular engine that springs to mind, it also was notorious (for me) in getting a hole in the fire, I suspect it was a problem with the grates on it. The problem was that it would clinker around the edge of the hole, as you had to feed that area to shut the rotten stuttering noise up.

Put it this way. My theory & that of every steam driver I worked with was that why the heck be turning the on & off in accord with the position of the regulater & screw?  Bareing in mind the blower control handle was on the drivers side he would dictate it.  Likewise the best drivers I worked with would keep the engine in a steaming position rather then totally shutting off & return the screw to full full travel when in undulating terrain.

Which in affect, if the theory of only having the blower on when not steaming was negated, albeit the engine was not steaming hard, but the thing was that it kept an action on the fire, & the cylinders were kept warm, this helped immensely on 35 & 36cl when those who shut right off, if they opened the regulator too hard it could pull the bank, never had that happen when you ran in near centre & cracked regulator, then a single move to fully open the regulator, again you had to be prepared for it & thats knowing the road & who your mate was.

The thing that I consider is the benefit is that the blower provided an even continual draft on the fire, not intermittant, in the on - off sense when running over undulating terrain.

Having been to China & watching & talking the crews there, depending on the work they were doing they also tended to keep the blowers going at all times when working, owing to the very poor quality coal in use, they called it slag for good reason, but the engines were designed for its use.

I have seen terrible clinker build up on them especially on the QJ's used on the Jitong line.

EDIT IN.

Is there a reason why the organisation discourages the use of the blower?

Certainly when the blower is used at high rate, it means that the steam pressure can increase quick & the need for more water, but that is the case primarilly when only working the engine engine light or when stationary.  

When working hard, it actually makes little or no difference to the overal situation, in fact if you have an engine that is dieing a bit on you, the blower helps getting the steam up quicker & aids in the burning of the coal, helps a lot in that case, without it, the fireman could be actually working harder than need be.

As the blower is from steam pressure that is the only reason I can think of why there would be any discouragement of it, & I guess in the volounteer area, they would be trying to save every bit of money they could, but I would think its a wasted idea at least from the practical side of things.
  SAR621 Chief Commissioner

It's an interesting point but in my book one of the major factors to consider is the ash fusion temperature.

I work on a preserved railway using BA coal at present. Previous batches have been fairly low in ash content regardless and what ash was present either carried over as fine dust or fell happily into the pan. The last few batches have been finer grading and noticeably more bitumenous in composition.

Depending on the trip the length varies but regardless, engines climb a 1:60 ruling grade for about half the trip, go over the top and roll down the other side under light steam. An hour or so is spent doing low speed shunting, watering, coaling, running around etc and the train hauled back over the grade.

The fire temperature varies accordingly with the work load - going from heavy steaming to drift steam in both directions. Cyclic firebox temperature simply can't be avoided in this type of service, regardless of bed thickness.

It we noticed that the standard consist, even with fairly conservative driving, had sufficient draft to cause clinkering. The condition was exacerbated with the firebox temperature dropping below fusion temperature during the layover time, with honeycomb style clinker forming right through the bed. This could not readily be worked through the grates with pricker and rocking being a time consuming process.

The solution appears to be just running the fire as hot as possible when not under load by judicious use of the blower, attempting to keep the bed thin to promote ash passage into the pan and attempting, within reason, to run the locos fairly lightly to keep the firebox temperatures at reasonable levels.

Would be nice to get back onto top grade steaming coal, but that's getting harder to find these days (and at reasonable prices)
  anuddernut Locomotive Fireman

Location: Near the beach
Thanks guys for your input.  It really confirms my thoughts on clinkering.  Earlier this year I fired constantly on a 5km loop trips with a layover of only about 2 minutes between trips.  I had used the blower constantly and kept the water level up and the pressure constant within 10 psi.  I had had no problems for 4 hours and had a break for one trip.  The person who took over firing is of the non-blower breed and it end up clinkering up half way around.  I took over the next trip and never had a bit of clinker problems for the rest of the day.

Good luck or co-incidence?
  a6et Minister for Railways

It's an interesting point but in my book one of the major factors to consider is the ash fusion temperature.

I work on a preserved railway using BA coal at present. Previous batches have been fairly low in ash content regardless and what ash was present either carried over as fine dust or fell happily into the pan. The last few batches have been finer grading and noticeably more bitumenous in composition.

Depending on the trip the length varies but regardless, engines climb a 1:60 ruling grade for about half the trip, go over the top and roll down the other side under light steam. An hour or so is spent doing low speed shunting, watering, coaling, running around etc and the train hauled back over the grade.

The fire temperature varies accordingly with the work load - going from heavy steaming to drift steam in both directions. Cyclic firebox temperature simply can't be avoided in this type of service, regardless of bed thickness.

It we noticed that the standard consist, even with fairly conservative driving, had sufficient draft to cause clinkering. The condition was exacerbated with the firebox temperature dropping below fusion temperature during the layover time, with honeycomb style clinker forming right through the bed. This could not readily be worked through the grates with pricker and rocking being a time consuming process.

The solution appears to be just running the fire as hot as possible when not under load by judicious use of the blower, attempting to keep the bed thin to promote ash passage into the pan and attempting, within reason, to run the locos fairly lightly to keep the firebox temperatures at reasonable levels.

Would be nice to get back onto top grade steaming coal, but that's getting harder to find these days (and at reasonable prices)
"SAR621"


You raise a very relevant aspect in this debate, & that is the coal, I think I did mention some aspects of it but.  Some NSW coals in particular some of the Northern coal was highly combustionable & burnt very quick great in raising steam, however the big problem was the low ash content & the only time I really had any problem on a garratt with that coal. (I recounted the trip & incident in a previous thread railway stories or similar)

That sort of coal was not supposed to be supplied on garratts, especially as it often came in with a lot of dust & next to no lumps, on a garratt it was like working a blast furnace, fine on a constant grade, but no good on undulating terrain from BMD - Gosford, as it showed it was impossible to get any real bed on the grates.

Other northern coals, as well as the main Burragorang coal we were primarilly supplied at Enfield was great owing to its good steaming, reasonable ash content & usually in nice sizes.

When working with those coals & other loco supplied coals off the west & South coast, you simply had to have the blower on to get it to burn sufficiently to get the right amount of heat & air especially with the western stuff as it had high ash content. South Coast coal burnt high heat when almost out, (in a sense owing to its heat being at the end of combustion & burning) if you had much smoke with it, you were firing too heavy, old drivers loved that on stoker engines as you could slow feed it for maximum burning & heat, & once jets were set it was trully automatic according to them.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
My understanding that it is both the solid coal that supplies the heat as well as the gas [volatile hydrocarbons] contained in the coal. As others have said, it is the brick arch that lengthens the gas journey through the firebox and thus time for the gas combustion to generate heat. But heat from both solid coal plus the gas in the coal.

Part of this from Section 4, "Locomotive Firing" of Steam Operation #1 that I mentioned previously in this thread;
Operation and Management of Steam Locomotives - A guide and Book of Special Instructions of Locomotive Engine Drivers, Firemen and Trainee Enginemen - Part I - 1961 - This publication was issued to railway staff to provide guidance on the operation of steam Locomotives. - ©RailCorp 1961 12.35 MB
http://coalstonewcastle.com.au/manual/documents/

Other sources for the brick arch data from other books I have.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
One should remember that solids do not burn; only gases burn.
This is why you see flames leaping above red hot coal; the gases are burning, the solid coal is not. It is being heated so that the volatile hydro-carbons are released in gaseous form. This is the reason that ash is left behind; it is the non-volatile component of the coal.

There is the old combustion requirement of T, T, T and O:-  Time, Temperature, Turbulence and Oxygen.
Temperature is required to cause the gases to form; it takes time for this to happen; and turbulence mixes the gases with oxygen from the air.
  a6et Minister for Railways

One should remember that solids do not burn; only gases burn.
This is why you see flames leaping above red hot coal; the gases are burning, the solid coal is not.

There is the old combustion requirement of T, T, T and O - Time, Temperature, Turbulence and Oxygen.
Temperature is required to cause the gases to form; it takes time for this to happen; and turbulence mixes the gases with oxygen.
"Valvegear"


That is all true, but the thing is for a locomotive fireman & driver their main need was to be able to distinquish between coal types as to how they performed in the firebox.

The coal I refered to that I had trouble with on a garratt was wonderfull coal on a 38, however you did not have the door open when standing still & even with the blower just cracked owing to the reason behinds its nick name of Dynamite.  Instead of burning in the same or similar manner as other coals, & fireing with a bank under the door, all you saw was smoke & the gases coming out of the coals with a yellow glow, all the while the coal was exploding & sending chips into the cab, instead of burning down, it broke & cracked open.

The other aspect of it was how quick it burned & care had to be taken with firing owing to the fact of having such high heat & low ash, you had to watch the fire more consistently than others as you might have full steam pressure but it would soon drop if you played on the gauge, owing to the fire being burnt through & dead ash underneath. It was necessary to fire it with smoke.

Theory & the mechanics of something is well & good to know, but when it comes to engine management, those who drove to the rules & theory of it, rarelly were good enginemen, & in most cases were harder on the firemen that those who drove from the practical basis of theirs & the same knowledge of those who taught them the skills of engine management.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
One would have to endorse everything that a6et says about engine management. (My comments on the theory of combustion were not intended for the experienced engineman).

Comparing coal from mine A with coal from mine B can be like the proverbial chalk and cheese. Pelton is the classic example of high volatile, low ash coal, and is lovely stuff to fire ( if you can get it! ) But, going from the sublime to the gorblimey, the old State Mine, Wonthaggi coal was atrocious. . . low in volatiles, and high in ash content, and would clinker while you scratched your nose.

At PBR some years ago, we had both Westcliff and Blair Athol coals. The Blair Athol coal, which came in big lumps, could be packed into the NA's firebox up to the brick arch and left alone for the whole run. If you tried that with Westcliff, you'd have no fire in no time at all.

Relatively recent experience says that coal from Gunnedah is good stuff, and so it goes on.
  nm39 Chief Commissioner

Location: By a road taking pictures
One would have to endorse everything that a6et says about engine management. (My comments on the theory of combustion were not intended for the experienced engineman).

Comparing coal from mine A with coal from mine B can be like the proverbial chalk and cheese. Pelton is the classic example of high volatile, low ash coal, and is lovely stuff to fire ( if you can get it! ) But, going from the sublime to the gorblimey, the old State Mine, Wonthaggi coal was atrocious. . . low in volatiles, and high in ash content, and would clinker while you scratched your nose.

At PBR some years ago, we had both Westcliff and Blair Athol coals. The Blair Athol coal, which came in big lumps, could be packed into the NA's firebox up to the brick arch and left alone for the whole run. If you tried that with Westcliff, you'd have no fire in no time at all.

Relatively recent experience says that coal from Gunnedah is good stuff, and so it goes on.
"Valvegear"

If you want an extreme in poor quality coal, the SA Government decreed that the Leigh Creek Lignite (Brown Coal) was to be used in steam locos. It was said of this that "half of it was dirt and the other half didn't burn". The Government made a concession that the enginemen could wear eye protection but only when using this rubbish.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
One would have to endorse everything that a6et says about engine management. (My comments on the theory of combustion were not intended for the experienced engineman).  
"Valvegear"

a6et, I think "Valvegear" means his comments on the theory of combustion were intended for people like me as he can see I learn by reading railway documents like the ones I mentioned above  Laughing

Well, "Valvegear", keep on writing your comments as non rail experienced folk like me also learn here as well as those other documents we read  Smile
  a6et Minister for Railways

One would have to endorse everything that a6et says about engine management. (My comments on the theory of combustion were not intended for the experienced engineman).  
"Valvegear"

a6et, I think "Valvegear" means his comments on the theory of combustion were intended for people like me as he can see I learn by reading railway documents like the ones I mentioned above  Laughing

Well, "Valvegear", keep on writing your comments as non rail experienced folk like me also learn here as well as those other documents we read  Smile
"petan"


Petan

No problems, & the whole thing is that what steam that is left in this country these days are only used on special train type working & often on light terrain with light loads.  I turn 65 next year, & I would dare say that there would be few under 60 who would have worked steam on the basis of consistant heavy trains & grades.

Take any line that was dieselised & the date & add the age of enginemen to it realising that you had to be a least 17 1/2 to go out on the road, on top of that, most depots stopped qualifying firemen for steam other than shunting duties around 2 years prior to the finish of steam.  So experience & even mine is fairly limited.

As I said the theory is great & its always good to know that there are those who have the interest in learning even the theory of things, & to those I tip my hat, even though I don't wear one often.

When talking of coals, I remember being in QLD in the last sugar season of 69. riding in the cab of a C17 from Esk to the top of the range on the Brisbane Valley line, & marvelled how the crew had to work hard in balancing steam & water, as they said how hard it was to fire against the injector, & they said they had good coal, called IRRC   Blue Athol, which they said was the best coal they could get.

Later at Mackay, I rode on the Netherdale branch on a PB15, & the same thing was found their & they also said the same thing about the coal.

Gunnedah coal was good stuff, as was the coal from the old WCK colliery which supplied WCK loco until closed & then it came from the Black Jack Mine at GDH. It was very much like the coal we got at Enfield from Burragorang Valley.
  Railnthusiast Chief Commissioner

Location: At the computer
Thanks all. Interesting reading. Very Happy
  Ballast_Plough Chief Commissioner

Location: Lilydale, Vic
Concur with this being a fantastic topic.

Issue we've had at PBR over the years is the variety of coal that we've had. Infrequent nature of getting on the roster means that you would finally master one type of coal just in time to find we'd switched sources.

One of the coals (can't remember which - Blair Athol) gave terrific heat but virtually no smoke. Lots of of fireman had been taught to look for black smoke as that meant there were no holes in the fire. Problem here was over-firing as they kept shovelling onto this imaginary hole - next thing the bed was too thick and clinkering would start.
  G41 Chief Commissioner

Location: Footplate of any K class
Blair Athol is hot and has next to no smoke, but needed to be added well before it was needed.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Blair Athol is hot and has next to no smoke, but needed to be added well before it was needed.
"G41"


Sounds like South Coast coal which burnt very hot, & I mentioned before, you had to fire it light but than meant more constant attention to the firing whereas other coals could be bludged on by pilling it more.

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