Model Train Shows and Public Liability for Exhibtors

 
  recloserse Beginner

Hello all

What is the position regarding public liability insurance at model train shows for exhibitors of layouts ? 

Is it the normal practice for the show organiser to advise the exhibitors that they will not be covered by the organisers public liability policy and are advised to have their own cover which is contrary to the informatin that was provided to exhibitors at time of application.


Recloserse


 

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  John_Bushell Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Hi Recloserse,

Just joined today? Welcome to RP.  First post looks like  you're on a mission.

Let us know what your problem is.  Doubt we can help, but perhaps we can sympathize.

Best regards,
John

 
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Hello all

What is the position regarding public liability insurance at model train shows for exhibitors of layouts ? 

Is it the normal practice for the show organiser to advise the exhibitors that they will not be covered by the organisers public liability policy and are advised to have their own cover which is contrary to the informatin that was provided to exhibitors at time of application.


Recloserse


 
"recloserse"


It would be advisable to always have your own PLI. Some exhibition organisers will allow you to be covered by their PLI or that of the venue, but that would be at their discretion.
  MUDCRABS Chief Train Controller

Location: Penrith Station (The Garage)
Hello all

What is the position regarding public liability insurance at model train shows for exhibitors of layouts ? 

Is it the normal practice for the show organiser to advise the exhibitors that they will not be covered by the organisers public liability policy and are advised to have their own cover which is contrary to the informatin that was provided to exhibitors at time of application.


Recloserse


 
"recloserse"


It would be advisable to always have your own PLI. Some exhibition organisers will allow you to be covered by their PLI or that of the venue, but that would be at their discretion.
"Aaron"


Public Liability, for a train layout..... The world has gone Mad!
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Hello all

What is the position regarding public liability insurance at model train shows for exhibitors of layouts ? 

Is it the normal practice for the show organiser to advise the exhibitors that they will not be covered by the organisers public liability policy and are advised to have their own cover which is contrary to the informatin that was provided to exhibitors at time of application.


Recloserse


 
"recloserse"


Interesting?
Pray tell, who has cut out Public Liability Insurance?
My best bet will be Sandown, which is a commercial exhibition rather than a Club one.

I am connected with two Exhibitions. Both take out Public Liability Insurance for their Exhibitions They are Hobsons Bay and Murray Railway Modellers. Interestingly The Collingwood High School and the Albury Council, also provide public liability Insurance for all people legitimately attending functions on their property.

However if the cost of PL Insurance has risen as much as my House Insurance this year, maybe Public Liability Insurance is no longer viable ??
Look forward to the answers.
Cheers
Rod
  qredge Deputy Commissioner

Location: Marsden Qld
My understanding is that every event that involves the public the Organisers must have public liability insurance as the event is in their name not the layout owners.

Public liability cover injury or death to members of the public or exhibitors.

Some community associations etc have the public liability on the hall that covers all the functions in it but most commercial ones require you to provide proof of public liability insurance cover- up to $20million now days.

People could be getting mixed up with property insurance which covers damage or theft from your layout.
Most exhibitions are all care taken but no responsibility for your property

Private household insurance can cover your layout at home but while travelling to and at an exhibition it does not unless it is specifically mentioned

This is why most exhibitions applications specifically mention now that your are responsible to provide your insurance on your property at the exhibition as the insurance cover required would break the bank as all items would have to be logged, constant security would needed to be provided, strict implementation or loading unloading and storage provision, and probably CCTV survelience of the whole exhibiton to prevent theft as well as photographic proof recorded of prior condition of layouts before leaving home etc etc  whereas you operating the layout can keep your eyes on it a lot easier.

To give an example of public liability insurance cover required now days it would cost us nearly $600 to cover a banner across a road for one week.  ie in case vandals cut it free and it causes an accident with a few cars etc
  recloserse Beginner

Hello all

What is the position regarding public liability insurance at model train shows for exhibitors of layouts ? 

Is it the normal practice for the show organiser to advise the exhibitors that they will not be covered by the organisers public liability policy and are advised to have their own cover which is contrary to the informatin that was provided to exhibitors at time of application.


Recloserse


 
"recloserse"


Hello again
 
The following is from the 2012 information for layout exhibitors supplied with the exhibitors application form in 2011 -
"TERMS and CONDITIONS APPLICABLE TO ALL LAYOUT EXHIBITORS:

Layouts applications WILL ONLY be accepted on the following conditions – please read and note how these conditions affect your display. Contact us with any queries."

  

    1. Clause 8 -



    2. "Layout exhibitors      are recommended to have their own insurance cover on all their items.      [AMRA will have members on site continuously from Friday morning to Monday      night, and will have a current Public Liability Policy in place for the      duration of the show]"







        1. from a email sent in January 2012 -

          "PLEASE NOTE:-

           Brisbane Model Train Show - Public Liability Insurance.

           AMRA (Qld) Inc. has been advised by its Insurance Brokers that the Public Liability Insurance policy held by AMRA does NOT COVER exhibitors/traders at the Brisbane Model Train Show.

           All show participants (including layout exhibitors) are advised to contact their insurance company/broker and ensure that they have Public Liability Insurance in place to cover them in the event of a claim being made against them as a result of their participation in the 2012 Brisbane Model Train Show.

           


          If you require anymore information please email at showmanagerbmts@gmail.com."



          Seems like the organisers of this show wish to take very little responsibility and pass it on the the exhibitors , what will be next ? exhibitors charged for electricity they consume on their layouts !

           

          Recloserse    
           






  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Truly surprised that this is coming from an AMRA club
I suggest this will be more fallout from the devastating floods. Insurance Companies are there to make super profits not super pay outs. They never seem to add up or even remember all the good years, when claims were low, just the few times they need to pay out big time.

I must make enquiries with my own clubs to see whether super high charges are going to effect us. I believe Hobsons Bay is ok, but I have a feeling Albury Insurance is due in April.
Two things. Without Insurance my Clubs would have to stay at home..that is we could not  attend exhibitions!
Without Insurance our club will not be able to operate Exhibitions either

So things might be getting a bit grim, if AMRA are reacting like this in Brisbane
Cheers
Rod
  qredge Deputy Commissioner

Location: Marsden Qld
Upon further investigation the situation has been uncovered

1. When any financial transaction is in place public liability does not cover that other party ie commercial traders who rent space or layout exhibitors for their own layouts and receive some financial compensation for it.

2. Public liability covers the public areas in the exhibition only or to the related property of the organiser ie a club layout.

3. This is the situation at all exhibitions and has been the case for many years/decades. Obviously the insurance industry saw this as a way of sheding responsibility and or gaining more income!

4. As the number of claims for public liability against a layout at a show has been either minimunal or non existant it has n ever become an issue before

5. Your home insurance public liability should cover your layout at an exhibition but obviously it pays to check
All incorporated associations must have their own public liability insurance as a matter of law

6. Commercial entities should have their own PLI as a matter of normal course as well as property/stock insurance if they are a normal astute business person.

7. It seems the only people not normally covered are a unincorporated group or club and they would need to talk to an insurance broker.
  mudhen455 Junior Train Controller

My understanding is if you are a member of the NMRA you are covered .Might be wrong though. 
  sol Assistant Commissioner

Location: Evanston Gardens SA
My understanding is if you are a member of the NMRA you are covered .Might be wrong though. 
"mudhen455"



I think Warren, only at a  NMRA exhibition .  But I will follow this up.
 
  sol Assistant Commissioner

Location: Evanston Gardens SA
My understanding is if you are a member of the NMRA you are covered .Might be wrong though. 
"mudhen455"



I think Warren, only at a  NMRA exhibition .  But I will follow this up.

 
"sol"




Only covers NMRA members participating under the NMRA banner  .


The organisers Public Liability usually only covers "paying customers" and not individuals working on layouts.
 
  MUDCRABS Chief Train Controller

Location: Penrith Station (The Garage)
Well, there ya go... what a wasted thread. Shocked
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

My understanding is if you are a member of the NMRA you are covered .Might be wrong though. 
"mudhen455"



I think Warren, only at a  NMRA exhibition .  But I will follow this up.

 
"sol"




Only covers NMRA members participating under the NMRA banner  .


The organisers Public Liability usually only covers "paying customers" and not individuals working on layouts.
 
"sol"


The easy solution is to become a member of AMRA if exhibiting at an AMRA exhibition.
  MUDCRABS Chief Train Controller

Location: Penrith Station (The Garage)
Went to one of those meetings last Saturday (AMRA )... won't bother to join .. People were full of self importance ..
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Personally, I would refuse to exhibit at an exhibition where those organising the event cannot provide PL insurance for the exhibitors.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Went to one of those meetings last Saturday (AMRA )... won't bother to join .. People were full of self importance ..
"MUDCRABS"


Any large organisation will have individual members some don't like. Statistics indicate the vast majority of AMRA members do not attend the local branchs on a regular basis. Also there are many members doing their own thing without any formal links to AMRA or it's branches.
  Railnthusiast Chief Commissioner

Location: At the computer
Hmmmm, shame that you can not have a simple little exhibition with out having people held responsible. I must admit that I would not have the guts to put something in exhibition. My blood pressure would just rise and rise. Laughing
Seriously though, question for those who exhibit: Do people (small kids etc) try to pull down trains and stuff? I just see so many cases in exhibitions where there is potential for things to go all pear shaped when there is little kids around who want to touch stuff. I have even seen the occasional timw when you hear a quick shout and either something goes "CRASH" or you see a small kid doing something very unwise. I think clubs need to be more accepting of little people though as this is when kids should be able to touch the trains.
  qredge Deputy Commissioner

Location: Marsden Qld
Personally, I would refuse to exhibit at an exhibition where those organising the event cannot provide PL insurance for the exhibitors.
"TheBlacksmith"


I think you will find that not one exhibition insurance has ever covered  the exhibitors  when you look at the fine print.  I know I was under the impression for 30 years that that was the case and was suprised as you that it was not. Seems everyone thought the same so somewhere there must have been a claim and that has caused the awakening
Is this the end of exhibitions?
   
It is a bit like I cannot insure you for a benefit for me in case you die as I have no vested dependence on you
Similarly with an exhibiton as it is called public liability it only insures the public against the organising committee and the insurance companies say each exhibitor is another entity

Brings on another interesting viewpoint in that why do they make you tag your electricial gear when you are responsible for it not them? Why does the RNA for example in Brisbane make you tag when in theory they will never be responsible for it?

All I can think is if someone wants to sue they sue the layout operator, the organising committee and the owner of the hall to cover all bases and ensure they get some financial benefit in the end.
Shades of USA  you know "United Sueing America."
  robertc Chief Train Controller

Having been a member of incorporated clubs who carried their own PLI ( some since the 1970's) I was a little uneasy when involved with an unincorporated club with no insurance some years ago.
From memory the cost of insurance  was then greater than $1000 and our small group could not afford that on top of the $500+ it was costing each of us to rent the club premises each year.
I wrote to the three national model railway organisations seeking a possible  100%  membership arrangement whereby our club could operate under their insurance blanket cover.
Of the responses I received only the  NMRA offered insurance for members at meetings and while exhibiting, providing we were all members, display an NMRA banner and a few other caveats that now escape me.
We then became an NMRA only club.  Some other clubs followed after hearing of our arrangement.

Some time later I received a phone call from a former executive member of one of the model railway organisations who had been in the insurance game before retirement suggesting that the NMRA offer might not be valid outside North America, he offered to investigate. I was of course anxious to hear some professional confirmation (or otherwise) but unfortunately he died  before getting back to me.

When it comes to being sued all it takes is (say) one of your crew to offer a chair to a child to watch the layout at an exhibition , the child to fall off and injure themselves and your club to be then liable for perhaps millions in damages claims. If you are not incorporated and insured then you are all liable to be pursued as individuals and I would hazard a guess those with the most to loose would be the prime targets.

It is a sad state of affairs, but not a new one. It is a pity all the national organisations could not collectively organise a blanket cover and an individual only needs to belong to one of them to be covered when showing their trainset in public.

regards
Bob Comerford
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
So Gredge..
Are you saying that as an Exhibition organiser, I pay out $1000 of club s limited funds to protect my Club members from litigation should some member of the public decide he/she needs to sue us, all to find out the policy is not worth the paper it is written on?

Say a Mother fell of the stage with her child, causing one to be seriously injured, perhaps quadriplegia as a worst case.  Do we all go bankrupt when the club is sued for $20 millions, and awarded a similar amount.

I really hope not Rolling Eyes
The Insurance salesman, bumped the premium up $300 to guarantee us, we were all safe no matter what, even if we were found negligent
(not so) Cheers(y)
Rod


Personally, I would refuse to exhibit at an exhibition where those organising the event cannot provide PL insurance for the exhibitors.
"TheBlacksmith"


I think you will find that not one exhibition insurance has ever covered  the exhibitors  when you look at the fine print.  I know I was under the impression for 30 years that that was the case and was suprised as you that it was not. Seems everyone thought the same so somewhere there must have been a claim and that has caused the awakening
Is this the end of exhibitions?
   
It is a bit like I cannot insure you for a benefit for me in case you die as I have no vested dependence on you
Similarly with an exhibiton as it is called public liability it only insures the public against the organising committee and the insurance companies say each exhibitor is another entity

Brings on another interesting viewpoint in that why do they make you tag your electricial gear when you are responsible for it not them? Why does the RNA for example in Brisbane make you tag when in theory they will never be responsible for it?

All I can think is if someone wants to sue they sue the layout operator, the organising committee and the owner of the hall to cover all bases and ensure they get some financial benefit in the end.
Shades of USA  you know "United Sueing America."
"qredge"
Rolling Eyes
  robertc Chief Train Controller

Given  the statement from AMRA regarding the insurer's advising them that exhibitors are not covered, I fail to see that being an AMRA member will cover anyone exhibiting their own private layout or those others engaged in helping to run it.
In fact as I read it, the PLI taken out by the organising committee does not include the  AMRA club layouts!

I would like to be proved wrong on this point.

regards
 Bob Comerford
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
The way I see it, an organisation who is putting together an exhibition needs individuals/groups/clubs to bring along their layouts to that exhibition in order to attract people through the door.

As the costs involved in moving, setting up, operating and dismantling the layout are often not fully covered, why should a layout owner/group have to pay as well for PLI? They are already contributing a lot of effort, time and incidental costs to the operation.

So, from the point of view of the layout providers, I would not take the risk that someone might sue me, and I would not fork out for the coverage either. Stalemate.
  wrongroad Deputy Commissioner

Location: Grafton
It seems to me, after watching all the latest on floods and fires, you only really know what you are covered for when you try to claim.
I don't think I would like to take a layout to a public exhibition to find out that I might be covered or might not be for that matter.
I admire those who put plenty of blood, $weat and tear$ into a layout and then drag it (sometimes) thousands of kilometres so I can look at it.
I feel that an organising group need to cover the exhibitor via their insurance. That is my personal view and it is not intended to be a swipe at the organisers either. I have been involved with motor racing for many years and have a fair idea how insurance companies work.
Insurance is almost a swear word these days and I fear it may stop alot of people from trying to organise future exhibitions.
I hope not.
Regards and respect
  qredge Deputy Commissioner

Location: Marsden Qld
Blacksmith as i said before does this spell the end of the exhibitions as we know it?

That is the way the world is coming to

1. You don't bring someone home to see your layout as he might steal something
2. or they might case the joint for another time to come back and steal stuff
3 or fall over and sue you
4 or choke on the afternoon tea and die and his relatives sue you etc
or
5 do not put your layout on a trailer to take to a show as it might come adrift and someone sues you
6 get somone to assist you in displaying your layout and they become injured and sue you for for loss of income
7. model a prototypical railway as they might sue you for using their trademarks and logos without approval
8. be sued my a prototype manufacturer for having a copy of their copyright design running on their layout
9. don't get others to assist in building your layout as they might sue for part ownership based on their work input
10. don't get married and build a layout and then get divorced as she might claim 1/2 layout in settlement

etc etc


But all this aside most people already are covered by their own public liability insurance anyway so there is not any additional cost except to an UNincorporated group which is dangerous to belong to anyway  legally and financially

Pity this occurs as after all one magazine says "Model Railroading is Fun"

Regards
The Eternal Pessimist  

Edited to correct error

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