New Cityrail Timetable 2013

 
  kypros1992 Locomotive Fireman

Location: Sydney

New CityRail timetable to launch next year: biggest overhaul in decades to increase efficiency & passenger load 

http://twitter.com/#!/ceda_news/status/193175441794797570

Note of the "biggest overhaul in decades" quote, so what will we see? 

My guess will be:

- Ditch timetables, introduce frequencies on major lines
- New stopping patterns
- Changes to Inner West, Bankstown and South including all the turnbacks at Lidcombe, Homebush and Liverpool & K2RQ
- More A sets allowing for more services

Also Gladys is open to mix of single deckers 

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  boxythingy Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
This appeared recently:

http://macarthur-chronicle-campbelltown.whereilive.com.au/news/story/opposition-calls-for-extra-trains-for-campbelltown/

THE state opposition has called on the government to honour its promise to provide an extra 16 peak express train services from Macarthur to the city each day.


http://macarthur-chronicle-campbelltown.whereilive.com.au/news/story/calls-for-better-train-services-for-macarthur-region/

Ms Berejiklian said the CityRail timetable was being rewritten from scratch, with the new schedule to be introduced late next year.


I'm really hoping frequencies are NOT introduced for lines with only 2 trains per hour during off peak, unless transport connections with other lines and modes are improved as well. I do not want to be missing my connections by 1-6 or so minutes and having to wait 20min+ just because the trains "arrive  'approximately' every x min". I think some of us already wake up early enough for a service that gets us from A-B either too early or simply late when delays occur.

Let's hope the promises are made on the peak express services in the new timetable.
  Black1050 Chief Train Controller

Location: Out of the Metrop

New CityRail timetable to launch next year: biggest overhaul in decades to increase efficiency & passenger load 

http://twitter.com/#!/ceda_news/status/193175441794797570

Note of the "biggest overhaul in decades" quote, so what will we see? 

My guess will be:

- Ditch timetables, introduce frequencies on major lines
- New stopping patterns
- Changes to Inner West, Bankstown and South including all the turnbacks at Lidcombe, Homebush and Liverpool
- More A sets allowing for more services
"kypros1992"



- Ditch timetables, introduce frequencies on major lines - Seriously doubt it.  This would making staffing quite problematic.
- New stopping patterns - That is a given, more accurately termed: revised stopping patterns.
- Changes to Inner West, Bankstown and South including all the turnbacks at Lidcombe, Homebush and Liverpool
- More A sets allowing for more services - Don't count on it.  The A-Sets are only to REPLACE existing S-Sets, not to complement them, therefore there will only be likely the same number of suburban trains (not including OSCARs).  In the event the waratart order is extended, then they can increase the number of services. (Special events excluded)

I suspect the BIG difference/change will be the increase in capacity on the network due to the increase of new Waratarts and OSCARs.  An 8 Car Waratart/OSCAR holds much more than an 8 car silver set.  
There may also be an increase in intercity services with the phasing out of V-Sets.



  kypros1992 Locomotive Fireman

Location: Sydney

New CityRail timetable to launch next year: biggest overhaul in decades to increase efficiency & passenger load 

http://twitter.com/#!/ceda_news/status/193175441794797570

Note of the "biggest overhaul in decades" quote, so what will we see? 

My guess will be:

- Ditch timetables, introduce frequencies on major lines
- New stopping patterns
- Changes to Inner West, Bankstown and South including all the turnbacks at Lidcombe, Homebush and Liverpool
- More A sets allowing for more services
"kypros1992"



- Ditch timetables, introduce frequencies on major lines - Seriously doubt it.  This would making staffing quite problematic.
- New stopping patterns - That is a given, more accurately - revised stopping patterns.
- Changes to Inner West, Bankstown and South including all the turnbacks at Lidcombe, Homebush and Liverpool
- More A sets allowing for more services - Don't count on it.  The A-Sets are only to REPLACE existing S-Sets, not to complement them, therefore there will only be likely the same number of suburban trains (not including OSCARs).  In the event the waratart order is extended, then they can increase the number of services.

I suspect the BIG difference/change will be the increase in capacity on the network due to the increase of new Waratarts and OSCARs.  An 8 Car Waratart/OSCAR holds much more than an 8 car silver set.  
There may also be an increase in intercity services with the phasing out of V-Sets.


"Black1050"


I'm not saying that services should run like a metrobus service with no timetable but that services must be increased to match the metrobus frequencies (i.e. reducing 30 mins waits to 20mins etc.)
  Black1050 Chief Train Controller

Location: Out of the Metrop


I'm not saying that services should run like a metrobus service with no timetable but that services must be increased to match the metrobus frequencies (i.e. reducing 30 mins waits to 20mins etc.)
"kypros1992"


A fair and valid point, however the limitation will be line capacity.  During peak times, trains are often already at the closest permissible distance to the train in front, so there isn't too much can be done for those, apart from increasing track speeds (highly unlikely), increasing capacity of those trains and more realistically run more express/limited stop services - preferably that are NOT right behind an all stops/all stations service... 
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I think what kypros is hinting at is pretty much a service that you can use as a "turn up and go" service during most of the day (say, 7am-7pm), rather than one where you need to plan everything according to a timetable.
  littleal9 Train Controller

Location: bellambi
I think what kypros is hinting at is pretty much a service that you can use as a "turn up and go" service during most of the day (say, 7am-7pm), rather than one where you need to plan everything according to a timetable.
"Watson374"


Thats pretty much how I use the system now, turn up at Sutherland, get on the first train that goes to Cental. Go to P25 get on the first train that goes to Sutherland.


  kypros1992 Locomotive Fireman

Location: Sydney
It's pretty clear that having a turn up and go service is much better than waiting for a service for more than 15+ minutes.

The areas I reckon need a major change are:

- Western Line (especially to Richmond - 30min wait after 8pm COME ON)
- Carlingford Line (no body wants to wait more than 1hr for a train)
- Northern Line (ditch the 30 min wait on WE)
- Intercity Lines (ditch the 2hr wait on the South Coast and skeleton timetable on the Sth Highlands)

and there's others as well

The way I see it, trains should turn up on a simple metrobus frequency 10, 15, 20 (with 5 for peak hours and possibly 30 for intercity services)

If Metro in Melbourne can manage 10mins on WE (this is not a guarantee, i know how unreliable Metro can be at some times and there is no certainity thay the 10min frequency will work), surely it can happen here


  bowralcommuter Chief Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a Manly Ferry
I'm afraid a "turn up and go" service is simply not financially wise in some areas. It's great for people who want to go as far as Chatswood or Parramatta as lots of people use the station but patronage on the Carlingford, Richmond and intericty do not get as heavy patronage, therefore frequency should not be as heavy. During the week, the service frequency on the Southern Highlands line isn't bad. (Although I'd like a few changes as most people know). What you'll find with the new timetable is a few extra peak services on each line, not much else I reckon. 

It's pretty clear that having a turn up and go service is much better than waiting for a service for more than 15+ minutes.

The areas I reckon need a major change are:

- Western Line (especially to Richmond - 30min wait after 8pm COME ON)
- Carlingford Line (no body wants to wait more than 1hr for a train)
- Northern Line (ditch the 30 min wait on WE)
- Intercity Lines (ditch the 2hr wait on the South Coast and skeleton timetable on the Sth Highlands)

and there's others as well

The way I see it, trains should turn up on a simple metrobus frequency 10, 15, 20 (with 5 for peak hours and possibly 30 for intercity services)

If Metro in Melbourne can manage 10mins on WE (this is not a guarantee, i know how unreliable Metro can be at some times and there is no certainity thay the 10min frequency will work), surely it can happen here

"kypros1992"
  R44 Chief Commissioner

Location: Moving paper


- Western Line (especially to Richmond - 30min wait after 8pm COME ON)

"kypros1992"


My TAFE is out that way - it's 30 min ALL DAY.

What I see to be viable for the Richmond line would be a few 4 car shuttle sets OFF PEAK between Blacktown and Richmond, Crossing at Quakers Hill, Riverstone, Mulgrave and Clarendon, with the Citybound connection upon arrival, So its not the end of the world. Also, Peak services from the city would continue to Richmond.

That will, However, Not happen.
  gilberations Assistant Commissioner

Location: Lithgow


- Western Line (especially to Richmond - 30min wait after 8pm COME ON)

"kypros1992"


My TAFE is out that way - it's 30 min ALL DAY.

What I see to be viable for the Richmond line would be a few 4 car shuttle sets OFF PEAK between Blacktown and Richmond, Crossing at Quakers Hill, Riverstone, Mulgrave and Clarendon, with the Citybound connection upon arrival, So its not the end of the world. Also, Peak services from the city would continue to Richmond.

That will, However, Not happen.
"R44"


of course not, its a sensible idea!

i beleive it should happen and the same should for the carlingford line. although i remember reading somewhere to change the route of the cumberland line to be richmond-leppington with a few peak services to the city...


  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.

of course not, its a sensible idea!
"gilberations"


Clearly, you've forgotten you're in NSW RazzLaughing

Okay, seriously; I like the idea of four-car shuttles on the Richmond line too.


i beleive it should happen and the same should for the carlingford line.
"gilberations"


Well, the Carlo's a weird one. As far as I know, not many people use it apart from peak runs, which still require people to build their lives around timetables.

What's ridiculous is the 15min headway on the Airport line.

I'm going to stick out my neck here and say we need to think like Jarrett Walker, a transport planner who lived in Sydney for around six years, who worked on the 2010 SMH/Christie report. Basically, we need to build a 'frequent network' of core routes we can use spontaneously - in essence, the turn-up-and-go system. This currently only really applies if you're going to places like Chatswood or Bondi Jn. We also need better integration, something that pretty much hasn't existed since the days of the PTC (or so I read).
  R44 Chief Commissioner

Location: Moving paper
I am sure hornsby could spare the 2 8-car sets.

Flemmo could lend a couple S Sets

Hell, they could even use V Sets.

Just thinking
  rrroLLa Chief Train Controller



- Western Line (especially to Richmond - 30min wait after 8pm COME ON)

"kypros1992"


My TAFE is out that way - it's 30 min ALL DAY.

What I see to be viable for the Richmond line would be a few 4 car shuttle sets OFF PEAK between Blacktown and Richmond, Crossing at Quakers Hill, Riverstone, Mulgrave and Clarendon, with the Citybound connection upon arrival, So its not the end of the world. Also, Peak services from the city would continue to Richmond.

That will, However, Not happen.
"R44"


They don't even have that sort of frequency in on-peak so why would they do it in off-peak?
If you mean adding those services during times when there are hour intervals (to shorted them to half hour) then they will only need to do the regular peak running (ie not crossing at Mulgrave).

You could introduce them in both on and off-peak to make 20 minutes intervals rather than 30 though.

I live out here and the reason people don't like to catch the train is more to do with the travel time not the frequency.  Many just drive to Penrith as its quicker to drive and catch a train then get on at Richmond or Windsor
  R44 Chief Commissioner

Location: Moving paper


They don't even have that sort of frequency in on-peak so why would they do it in off-peak?
If you mean adding those services during times when there are hour intervals (to shorted them to half hour) then they will only need to do the regular peak running (ie not crossing at Mulgrave).

You could introduce them in both on and off-peak to make 20 minutes intervals rather than 30 though.

I live out here and the reason people don't like to catch the train is more to do with the travel time not the frequency.  Many just drive to Penrith as its quicker to drive and catch a train then get on at Richmond or Windsor
"rrroLLa"


Only an hour each way from Wentworthville to East Richmond. 

Still, I think my idea has logic. It makes sense.

4 car sets, every 10 (or thereabouts) minutes, for most of the day. Saves waiting
  gilberations Assistant Commissioner

Location: Lithgow


4 car sets, every 10 (or thereabouts) minutes, for most of the day. Saves waiting
"R44"


with this frequency perhaps 2 car sets would make more sense. this could solve the issue of what to do with the 2 car sets in newcastle when OSCARS replace them
  R44 Chief Commissioner

Location: Moving paper


4 car sets, every 10 (or thereabouts) minutes, for most of the day. Saves waiting
"R44"


with this frequency perhaps 2 car sets would make more sense. this could solve the issue of what to do with the 2 car sets in newcastle when OSCARS replace them
"gilberations"


Less chance for failure with 4 car sets.
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney


4 car sets, every 10 (or thereabouts) minutes, for most of the day. Saves waiting
"R44"


with this frequency perhaps 2 car sets would make more sense. this could solve the issue of what to do with the 2 car sets in newcastle when OSCARS replace them
"gilberations"


Less chance for failure with 4 car sets.
"R44"


6 crews in each direction, inadequate turn around facilities, inadequate pathing capabilities...

Nice thought in theory, but unpracticale a Bathurst rail service by sparks is more likely.
  A78 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
When it got electrified to riverstone it was 2-Car shttules and they were the S-Sets with the headlights.
  bigdee1 Station Staff

Location: campbelltown nsw
Being a Campbelltown resident,know how it feels .I have just returned from Melbourne,and I really do not know why they are all complaining about Metro for.Ì noticed that Campbelltown and Frankston are app the same distance out from the city,but whilst we in NSW get a 30 minute service,(15 if you count alternate South line and Airport line) ,Frankston enjoys a 10 minute service all day,and now Metro has announced 10 minute services on week ends., on most lines. Makes you wonder.


  bowralcommuter Chief Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a Manly Ferry
Being a Campbelltown resident,know how it feels .I have just returned from Melbourne,and I really do not know why they are all complaining about Metro for.Ì noticed that Campbelltown and Frankston are app the same distance out from the city,but whilst we in NSW get a 30 minute service,(15 if you count alternate South line and Airport line) ,Frankston enjoys a 10 minute service all day,and now Metro has announced 10 minute services on week ends., on most lines. Makes you wonder.

"bigdee1"


Campbelltown's frequency is fine. It gets 10 minutes or less in peak hour which is sufficient. In off peak it's 30 minutes, which isn't bad and perhaps in the future it can get tightened to 20 mins but the off-peak Macarthur train certainly isn't 120% when it reaches Central. As I said earlier, some areas warrant a very frequent service, which include:
-Bondi Junction
-City Circle
-Chatswood
-Parramatta
-Strathfield
-Airport 
-Olympic Park when Easter Show e.t.c is on

And maybe a few others but everything else is surviving on 20-30 minute frequencies and if Barry were to cough up funds to increase the frequency all over the network, most likely we'd lose funding for another rail project like the NWRL. Shuttles are not a great idea if you ask me in Sydney, a service 60km from the city shouldn't stop after 25km, it should go into the city. It's also not a very popular move, when I ask people why they don't get the train in the Southern Highlands, most say there aren't enough through services to and from Central.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.

- Yes Watson, I know kypros was after "turn up and go" type frequency of operation.  They key problem of that idea is spacing between trains.  Metro buses don't have to signal block gaps enforced between them.  On top of that, without timetabled services, the crewing of these services would be VERY problematic - more like chaos.  Most posting in this thread seem to forget that these trains require crews to operate.  The one crew is not going to board that train and stay on it for the full 12 hours between 7 and 7.  Accept it, it is NOT going to happen.  Now get over it.  This is not a small (geographically speaking) asian city, where your turn up and go system can work.  Our network is much more complicated and interconnected for that to work.  Don't compare us with melbourne, they're success rate, let alone on time running rates are a joke. Particularly when you look at the size of their network.
Fact is the powers that be use the ON TIME RUNNING performance of timetabled services as a KPI of how the network/organisation is running.  Scrap, that you scrap the ability to measure performance.
"Black1050"


I think you might be slightly misunderstanding my POV here. I'm not advocating turn-up-and-go across the whole of suburban Sydney - that would be insane. The numbers will never add up for that. We're not an Asian city, big or small (believe me, most of the big ones can support turn-up-and-go transport, except maybe KL).

The idea is to run enough services on inner lines, like 6tph or better, so the system can be used somewhat spontaneously. Now, I'm not advocating the removal of timetables - at least not internally. No, working timetables for internal use will definitely need to be retained. Even London Underground does this. It's just that it's used internally to handle things like crewing, stabling, reversing, etc. but not for passengers to know that they have to take this particular service.

bowralcommuter has identified a number of obvious candidates for a frequent service. I quite agree with him on that list.

I understand the largest obstacle to such a good frequency is the fact that trains require crews which are human, and therefore have human (and union) limits.

Now, I know RailCorp has declared a maximum tph across the Harbour Bridge to be 20  - I take it this applies to the main trunk lines as well?
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Thread cleaned.

All of you play nice, or the thread will be locked, and warnings will be issued.



  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Don't overlook the fact that a timetable is necessary for journey planners (like 131500). Even the most "walk up and ride" rail services in the world have tts in the background - for operational reasons as well of course.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Good to see that what could be a discussion about a new timetable has turned into "my idea is more betterer than yours" thread.

May I suggest that this thread remain a topic for discussing facts about the new timetable. Perhaps baseless speculation and crazy ideas can be filed into a seperate thread?

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