4807 brake issues

 
  tbuff Station Staff

Is it true that Office of Rail Heritage Locomotive 4807 on loan to ARHS ACT suffered substantial damage to the locomotive brake shoes and rigging and wheels on the Brigadoon tour Question

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  WSRR Station Staff

Location: Sydney
Apparently so, a colleague (professional railwayman) of mine saw it this week & was telling us @ work  about it yesterday. Brake blocks burnt off to the carriers & indeed some carriers as well, we have no idea of the circumstances however. Mind you, while not mitigating the events surrounding 4807, it's not an uncommon occurence, I've seen locomotives set on fire from sticking/dragging brakes, with substancial damage involved & trying to get those burnt blocks out of the carriers is a difficult task. A great deal of fitters time is devoted to investigating brake issues, usually following an incident where the locomotive equipment is blamed, it rarely is the locomotive, & even if it has a fault a compotent engineman can usually compensate for it. It's a pleasure to watch a good engineman with the air, mind you the other side of that coin is a misery.  Rolling Eyes
  tbuff Station Staff

Phew!!  That's a lot of damage.  The engine brake must have been on for a while to do that much damage.  Did it happen on the up or the down trip?  As a passenger train travelling at high speed was there any danger of a derailment?  Will the wheels have to be professionally examined considering the high temperatures sustained?
  KngtRider Chief Commissioner

Location: http://www.nitroware.net
Meanwhile, in Texas

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=396305&nseq=14

You're welcome
  WSRR Station Staff

Location: Sydney
Sorry tbuff don't know enough about the incident to offer any informed comment, the comment telling us about it was little more than a passing remark, no detail on wheel condition, tread thickness or type of brake block fitted. Just a couple of points from where I stand, good wheels & cast iron blocks, unlikely to be any wheel damage, thin wheel tread & composite blocks is a different story, could be some issues. Burnt off blocks is not a big deal in the overall scheme of things, it's usually needless damage & a right pain for the fitters to repair. If the locomotive was manned it's unforgiveable, if it wasn't manned it's little better.Exclamation
  NSWGR 3827 Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Border
[quote="KngtRider"]Meanwhile, in Texas

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=396305&nseq=14

You're welcome[/quote]

Would suggest read this thread on US site Railway Preservation News, for more about UP 844.

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33149


  WSRR Station Staff

Location: Sydney
Interesting stuff there re 844, I remember a 59 class steamer having its drivers turned @ Delec many years ago because the independent brake had been applied in a "multiple unit" arrangement just skidding the 59's drivers. The skid when the first cut was taken on the lathe was shaped like a foot print, one large skid followed by a smaller one, you could of spent all day on it with a grinder & just made a bigger hole, hence the reason for it's visit to the wheel lathe which @ the time was a first for a steamer. Those posts on RYPN are right in what they say that you can't dress a skid out, it's a growing trend here when a locomotive suffers skids to dress them from class 3 to a lesser clasification which is rubbish because all their doing is blending the skid into the tread, the out of round is still there, just more difficult to see but you can still feel & hear it in traffic. I don't know how some of those Explorers & Endevours pass wheel examinations, some of them must have square wheels by the noise they make. I suppose that's the trouble with steam locomotives & coupling rods, one wheel skidded is all wheels skidded as with 844 & a 59, 8 skids on your 8 drivers.Crying or Very sad
  244hseriesalco Chief Train Controller


Apparently so, a colleague (professional railwayman) of mine saw it this week & was telling us @ work  about it yesterday. Brake blocks burnt off to the carriers & indeed some carriers as well, we have no idea of the circumstances however. Mind you, while not mitigating the events surrounding 4807, it's not an uncommon occurence, I've seen locomotives set on fire from sticking/dragging brakes, with substancial damage involved & trying to get those burnt blocks out of the carriers is a difficult task. A great deal of fitters time is devoted to investigating brake issues, usually following an incident where the locomotive equipment is blamed, it rarely is the locomotive, & even if it has a fault a compotent engineman can usually compensate for it. It's a pleasure to watch a good engineman with the air, mind you the other side of that coin is a misery.  Rolling Eyes
"WSRR"


Having heard a description of 4807 from someone who has photo's, its certainly done some damage, WSRR's comment regarding the "compotent engineman" is the key for the me, it had cast iron blocks so the wheel condition wont be to much of an issue, however extreme heat in other areas such as roller bearings and suspension bearings could be an issue.
Such a shame to see these kinds of things done to locomotives when this kind of damage/incident can/should be detected. 
If your on the thing and you dont see or smell something, then compotence of those operating it has to be called into question, as happened to 4201 some years ago down the south when it was second engine and after a crew change the operator did not bail off correctly after an auto application and the result was sticking brakes, the crew did not notice until a passing train noticed it was on fire from the smoke and raised the alarm, result was it had to come of the train as it burnt the brake blocks nearly off the thing and burnt traction motor cables.
Lets us also remember why the BLUE brake cylinder warning light system was introduced, 'a visual notification of brakes applied on all units', mainly to advise of the condition of trailing locomotives, not so much for crews on the actual loco in question, the obvious air gauge indication, noice of the brakes applied plus the smoke and possible flames are fairly obvious. Still we were not there on the day, but the above mentioned points still should have made those on it more than aware of its quiet obvious issues.  
  
  tbuff Station Staff

Thanks for the professional opinions WSRR and 244hseriesalco.  380 viewers and lots of tongues wagging.  This one is a lot more than a flat spot on wheels.  To quote WSRR - Brake blocks burnt off to the carriers & indeed some carriers as well.   All 24  cast iron brake blocks burnt off.  Steel on Steel??  More like a Class 4 defect??   Would be interested to see the photo if you could post it.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Tongues wagging, eh? Railpage is not a gossip column. I think we can do without the wild presumptions over what has happened.

I suggest if you do want the factual side of the story, to contact ARHS-Act. Whilst touching on that, if anybody from the ARHS-Act. would like to comment here, or answer questions pertaining to 4807, you are most welcome to do so.

Until there is any sort of official disclosure as to what has happened to 4807, the subject is off limits.

I will thank you all for your co-operation.


  Titfield Locomotive Fireman

Hey Mr 244
Rather than comment on the misfortune of an ARHS ACT engine which you have no involvement in why don't you report the misfortune of your famous 4001? Hidden away from public view on Sunday and no comments? Go on.....................tell everyone what really happened.


[quote="244hseriesalco
[/quote]

Having heard a description of 4807 from someone who has photo's, its certainly done some damage, WSRR's comment regarding the "compotent engineman" is the key for the me, it had cast iron blocks so the wheel condition wont be to much of an issue, however extreme heat in other areas such as roller bearings and suspension bearings could be an issue.
Such a shame to see these kinds of things done to locomotives when this kind of damage/incident can/should be detected. 
If your on the thing and you dont see or smell something, then compotence of those operating it has to be called into question, as happened to 4201 some years ago down the south when it was second engine and after a crew change the operator did not bail off correctly after an auto application and the result was sticking brakes, the crew did not notice until a passing train noticed it was on fire from the smoke and raised the alarm, result was it had to come of the train as it burnt the brake blocks nearly off the thing and burnt traction motor cables.
Lets us also remember why the BLUE brake cylinder warning light system was introduced, 'a visual notification of brakes applied on all units', mainly to advise of the condition of trailing locomotives, not so much for crews on the actual loco in question, the obvious air gauge indication, noice of the brakes applied plus the smoke and possible flames are fairly obvious. Still we were not there on the day, but the above mentioned points still should have made those on it more than aware of its quiet obvious issues.  
  [/quote]
  MBAX Chief Commissioner

Location: Mostly the Imperial
Bit too quick there Titfield.

244hseriesalco posted this on 30/4 under Hunter Valley Steamfest:

"Yes, 4001 had a hot suspension bearing, stored at BMD as its a safe place, probably get it sorted in the next couple of weeks. No.3 Traction motor D/S. Other wise it went like a dream."

On the so called ban on comments regarding the thread subject I do find it odd that this particular moderator is so keen to shut down "certain" discussions that don't appear to align with his views...
  244hseriesalco Chief Train Controller

Bit too quick there Titfield.

244hseriesalco posted this on 30/4 under Hunter Valley Steamfest:

"Yes, 4001 had a hot suspension bearing, stored at BMD as its a safe place, probably get it sorted in the next couple of weeks. No.3 Traction motor D/S. Other wise it went like a dream."

On the so called ban on comments regarding the thread subject I do find it odd that this particular moderator is so keen to shut down "certain" discussions that don't appear to align with his views...
"MBAX"


You beat me to it MBAX, let him have his momement.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Yep. "Let him have his moment" indeed. Just like the OP who started a thread entitled "4807 westinghouse mismanagement" or whatever it was... And it was THIS mod that changed it out of respect for the crew, as until there's something more concrete than an unknown gunzel speculating on the actions of a Driver, rightly or wrongly, he's still presumed innocent. That means a blocked exhaust port, damaged brake rigging, or a host of other factors could have resulted in the issue under discussion.

And while it's true that older loco's have the train-lined BCP indication, newer loco's using screen-based presentation of airbrake information do not necessarily show that the brakes are applied on a trailing unit.

I've no particular interest in the claims and counter-claims going on here as I couldn't care less what happens to 3801, the RTM, ARHS-Wherever or QRHeritage, but I'm over the bickering that seems to stem from the slightest hiccup to any kind of tour run by a hysterical group, so that being the case:

Thread locked.

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