How much does a Vlocity train cost?

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Vatec Station Master

Just wondering how much they cost, both 2 and 3 cars and if you can how much per carriage (all types)

Regards,
Vatec
 
wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
Just wondering how much they cost, both 2 and 3 cars and if you can how much per carriage (all types) Regards, Vatec
- Vatec

I did the sums a few years ago:
http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p682506.htm#682506

National Express - 29 dual car Vlocity trains for VLP - commenced 2002.
Cost: $215 million/total - $7.41 million/set - $3.70 million/car.
Dept of Infrastructure - 9 regional trains - commenced Nov 2003.
Cost: $125 million/total - $13.88 million/set - $6.94 million / car

The DoI spent $46.6 million to upgrade the maximum speed of the initial 29 Vlocities ordered by NX from 145 km/h to 160 km/h. This means the cost per unit of the original VLocity order was
$5 million/set - almost $2 million less a set than the later 9 car extension order.
- A user


I haven't done the sums on the later order extensions, which included the intermediate trailer cars.

 
Duncs Chief Commissioner

BTW How much does a V Locity train weigh? 
 
tranzitjim Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Just wondering how much they cost, both 2 and 3 cars and if you can how much per carriage (all types) Regards, Vatec
- Vatec

I did the sums a few years ago:
http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p682506.htm#682506

National Express - 29 dual car Vlocity trains for VLP - commenced 2002.
Cost: $215 million/total - $7.41 million/set - $3.70 million/car.
Dept of Infrastructure - 9 regional trains - commenced Nov 2003.
Cost: $125 million/total - $13.88 million/set - $6.94 million / car

The DoI spent $46.6 million to upgrade the maximum speed of the initial 29 Vlocities ordered by NX from 145 km/h to 160 km/h. This means the cost per unit of the original VLocity order was
$5 million/set - almost $2 million less a set than the later 9 car extension order.
- A user


I haven't done the sums on the later order extensions, which included the intermediate trailer cars.

- wongm


It is hard to get from that, the true cost for a DMU car, likewise a 2 or 3 car set.

The first lot...
....As Wogman said, there was the need to change the spec from145km/h to 160
....They changed their mind about the inclusion of certain facilities, like drink water fountains, and the amount of insulation they needed.  So, most of them where sent back to Bombarider to 'be re-done' into having the new specs.

The cost of getting the third carriage into a number of the 2 car sets...
....The natural cost of building the said third car.
.....The loss of income, for having the other two cars out of service as....
...........the other two cars had modifications done, from the drivers cab, to the toilet on one of the cars.


Therefore the cost would have been a lot more than the true cost of just buying a 1 car, 2 car or 3 car set outright,


When United Rail where doing the New Prospector & Avonlink cars a few years ago, I remember from the top of my head, worked it out to be around $9M for a three car set, or $3M per carriage.

Then again, the cost of materials and labor are sure to have increased since then.
 
alstom_888m Chief Commissioner

Location: South Morang Railway Line, VIC
114t for a 2-car set IIRC.
 
Duncs Chief Commissioner

114t for a 2-car set IIRC.
- alstom_888m


Thanks
 
x42 Locomotive Driver

Location: NSW
What upgrades took place to upgrade the speed ?
 
woodford Chief Commissioner

What upgrades took place to upgrade the speed ?
- x42


I am assumming you mean from a max speed of 145 to 160 KPH.

I believe the engine, transmission and final drive of the VLocity's are capable of 200KPH, for max speeds below that the speed is limited by the vehicles software.

The transmissions have three speeds ,low gear max speed aprox 85kph, low speed cruise max aprox 135kph, high speed cruise max 200 kph, for VLine the VLocity's are limited in the high speed cruise range as above to around 160kph. I have timed one at just under 165kph.
 
Boss Chief Commissioner

Location: Caulfield Line
What upgrades took place to upgrade the speed ?
- x42


I am assumming you mean from a max speed of 145 to 160 KPH.

I believe the engine, transmission and final drive of the VLocity's are capable of 200KPH, for max speeds below that the speed is limited by the vehicles software.

The transmissions have three speeds ,low gear max speed aprox 85kph, low speed cruise max aprox 135kph, high speed cruise max 200 kph, for VLine the VLocity's are limited in the high speed cruise range as above to around 160kph. I have timed one at just under 165kph.
- woodford

Woodford

Does that mean a Vlocity travelling at 135 in low speed cruise uses more fuel than at the same speed in high speed cruise, please?
 
vlocity160 V/Gunzel

114t for a 2-car set IIRC.
- alstom_888m
Your recollection is correct Smile

2 car VLocity = 114t
3 car VLocity = 171t
 
alstom_888m Chief Commissioner

Location: South Morang Railway Line, VIC
Does that mean a Vlocity travelling at 135 in low speed cruise uses more fuel than at the same speed in high speed cruise, please?
- Boss


The final (into 3rd) gear change is done somewhere around 120-130kmh. The lowest practical speed in the 3rd gear is the speed of most efficiency.

If the train is travelling at constant 130, then the train is likely to use "high speed cruise" (3rd gear).

Is a VLocity an "Auto" or a "Manual"?
 
woodford Chief Commissioner

What upgrades took place to upgrade the speed ?
- x42


I am assumming you mean from a max speed of 145 to 160 KPH.

I believe the engine, transmission and final drive of the VLocity's are capable of 200KPH, for max speeds below that the speed is limited by the vehicles software.

The transmissions have three speeds ,low gear max speed aprox 85kph, low speed cruise max aprox 135kph, high speed cruise max 200 kph, for VLine the VLocity's are limited in the high speed cruise range as above to around 160kph. I have timed one at just under 165kph.
- woodford

Woodford

Does that mean a Vlocity travelling at 135 in low speed cruise uses more fuel than at the same speed in high speed cruise, please?
- Boss


My experience with travelling on them on the Ballarrat line is they have no troubles sitting on 130KPH in low speed cruise, above that they will change to high speed cruise. There will be a small reduction in fuel consumption at 130kph in the latter gear due the engine running at a lower revs, but the difference will be small.

Woodford
 
Boss Chief Commissioner

Location: Caulfield Line
What upgrades took place to upgrade the speed ?
- x42


I am assumming you mean from a max speed of 145 to 160 KPH.

I believe the engine, transmission and final drive of the VLocity's are capable of 200KPH, for max speeds below that the speed is limited by the vehicles software.

The transmissions have three speeds ,low gear max speed aprox 85kph, low speed cruise max aprox 135kph, high speed cruise max 200 kph, for VLine the VLocity's are limited in the high speed cruise range as above to around 160kph. I have timed one at just under 165kph.
- woodford

Woodford

Does that mean a Vlocity travelling at 135 in low speed cruise uses more fuel than at the same speed in high speed cruise, please?
- Boss


My experience with travelling on them on the Ballarrat line is they have no troubles sitting on 130KPH in low speed cruise, above that they will change to high speed cruise. There will be a small reduction in fuel consumption at 130kph in the latter gear due the engine running at a lower revs, but the difference will be small.

Woodford
- woodford


Thanks Woodford - small savings are good.
 
woodford Chief Commissioner

Does that mean a Vlocity travelling at 135 in low speed cruise uses more fuel than at the same speed in high speed cruise, please?
- Boss


The final (into 3rd) gear change is done somewhere around 120-130kmh. The lowest practical speed in the 3rd gear is the speed of most efficiency.

If the train is travelling at constant 130, then the train is likely to use "high speed cruise" (3rd gear).

- alstom_888m


I have timed them quite a number of times on the Ballarrat line, they will sit around 130kph in "low speed" cruise no problems. The docs for the transmission (a Vioth T312) say the actual change point is between 120 and 130 kph and is somewhat dependant on the throttle position.




Is a VLocity an "Auto" or a "Manual"?
- A user


The entire control system is completely automatic, this includes the braking. Depending on the position of the controler, the train could be accelarating, runnning in neutral (Note 1) or braking either via the hydrodyanamic braking in the transmission or (I believe) via the air brake system. The gear used depends on the velocity and the controler position.

The transmission it self has two mechanical speeds. Low gear (1st gear) uses a torque converter. The apparent gear change from low to low speed cruise is due to the 1st speed torque convertor (a variable ratio device) being cut out and the drive taken over by a fluid coupling which of course has a fixed ratio. Note all gear changes are done via fluid couplings of some kind, there are no clutches at all in the gear box. The gear changes being done via the control system directing oil via electricly controled valves to the appropriate fluid coupling.  The only moving gears being the forward and reverse shaft and I believe this can ONLY change when the vehicle is stationary.

Note 1: If the driver throttles back so the vehicle is coasting the transmission shifts into neutral.

Note 2: The designation for the gears as low, low speed cruise and high speed cruise comes from me. Voith calling them 1st  2nd and 3rd gears. The reason I have called them that is when one compares the T312 (as fitted to the VLocity's) to the T311 (Sprinters) the only major difference between the two is 3rd gear, a gear used at speeds above 130KPH.
Important, point another difference is the T311 can only handle up to around 500bhp the T312, can go up to 800bhp.

Most of this info has come from the unusually technical sales brochures from the Voith web site.

woodford
 
woodford Chief Commissioner



A point I forgot,
The completely automatic control system of the VLocity's appears to include engine starting. There apparently being no usual separate start controls (say as used in the sprinters). As far as I can see the driver swiches on the controls system via the vehicles key and the engine of the first car starts when the controler is shifted into standby (or something like that) the engine of the other vehicles in the set do NOT start until the set starts to move. These engines will automaticly stop after I believe 15 minutes when the set is stationary.

From my discussions with some of the drivers it appears a good few of the older drivers do not like the integrated controler as it limits the operational choices of the driver. A particular point being with a separate independant engine brake as fitted to diesel electrics one can usually control slipping by a touch of the independant brake without having to throttle back.

Woodford
 
Vatec Station Master

Okay before we get too off topic I am still not clear how much a 3 car costs? We have only covered 2 cars but thanks for that.
 
Duncs Chief Commissioner

114t for a 2-car set IIRC.
- alstom_888m


Is that empty? Or do they weigh more when fully loaded with passengers and fuel etc..


 
alstom_888m Chief Commissioner

Location: South Morang Railway Line, VIC
The V/Line addenda PDF file on the V/Line website specifies this weight as a "Mass Rating" in tonnes. I read this as tare weight. There would be too many variables otherwise. How many passengers? Average loading? Full seated? Crush load? How much does a person weigh?
 
Duncs Chief Commissioner

The V/Line addenda PDF file on the V/Line website specifies this weight as a "Mass Rating" in tonnes. I read this as tare weight. There would be too many variables otherwise. How many passengers? Average loading? Full seated? Crush load? How much does a person weigh?
- alstom_888m


How much does a full tank of fuel weigh? 72 odd passengers at 72kg (including bags etc) would be approximately 5000kg or 5 tonnes. 
 
woodford Chief Commissioner

The V/Line addenda PDF file on the V/Line website specifies this weight as a "Mass Rating" in tonnes. I read this as tare weight. There would be too many variables otherwise. How many passengers? Average loading? Full seated? Crush load? How much does a person weigh?
- alstom_888m


How much does a full tank of fuel weigh? 72 odd passengers at 72kg (including bags etc) would be approximately 5000kg or 5 tonnes. 
- Duncs


1000 litres of Diesel weighs aprox 830 kg, I have never seen anything stating the VLocity's fuel capacity but the Sprinters fuel tank holds 1200 litres so one would assume its around that size, probably a little larger as the Vlocity has some what more power in the  engines. That would give the fuel weight as close to 1000kg.
 
Duncs Chief Commissioner

The V/Line addenda PDF file on the V/Line website specifies this weight as a "Mass Rating" in tonnes. I read this as tare weight. There would be too many variables otherwise. How many passengers? Average loading? Full seated? Crush load? How much does a person weigh?
- alstom_888m


How much does a full tank of fuel weigh? 72 odd passengers at 72kg (including bags etc) would be approximately 5000kg or 5 tonnes. 
- Duncs


1000 litres of Diesel weighs aprox 830 kg, I have never seen anything stating the VLocity's fuel capacity but the Sprinters fuel tank holds 1200 litres so one would assume its around that size, probably a little larger as the Vlocity has some what more power in the  engines. That would give the fuel weight as close to 1000kg.
- woodford


So 57+ 5+ 1 =63, say... 64 tonnes. Divided by four axles = 16ton axle load. Thanks.
 
billyp4850 Beginner

Location: Melbourne
A point I forgot,
The completely automatic control system of the VLocity's appears to include engine starting. There apparently being no usual separate start controls (say as used in the sprinters). As far as I can see the driver swiches on the controls system via the vehicles key and the engine of the first car starts when the controler is shifted into standby (or something like that) the engine of the other vehicles in the set do NOT start until the set starts to move. These engines will automaticly stop after I believe 15 minutes when the set is stationary.

From my discussions with some of the drivers it appears a good few of the older drivers do not like the integrated controler as it limits the operational choices of the driver. A particular point being with a separate independant engine brake as fitted to diesel electrics one can usually control slipping by a touch of the independant brake without having to throttle back.

Woodford
- woodford
Hi,
sorry to drag an old thread up. But when I caught a Vlocity in Ararat a few weeks ago, I was looking in the driving compartment window, and I remember seeing an "engine control" panel, with stop and start switches for both the main engine and the auxiliary engine. It was on the left hand side panel below the left window, near the CD player if I remember rightly.
 
woodford Chief Commissioner

Hi,
sorry to drag an old thread up. But when I caught a Vlocity in Ararat a few weeks ago, I was looking in the driving compartment window, and I remember seeing an "engine control" panel, with stop and start switches for both the main engine and the auxiliary engine. It was on the left hand side panel below the left window, near the CD player if I remember rightly.
- billyp4850

The source of the info on engine starting on the VLocity's came from a Bombardier tech at Ballarrat when the vehicles were not long introduced. He stated that the main engines stopped automaticly after a period of time and restarted once the driver shifted the control from Neutral. A second source which verified this was I was on the first VLocity on show at Southern Cross when  a  driver came on and told everyone to take a seat as the vehicle was being shifted, in this case the engine started just before the vehicle started to move (and I do mean JUST before). This __DEFINTELY__ occured on the earlier series, I assume the later vehicles are the same. Given that its all software controled one does not know as everything can be changed just by changing the program.

Some kind of engine starting panel would be required for maintence and test purposes, when  the techs wished to start the engines without moving the vehicle.

Note, I do not get to travel on VLocity's much as a good portion of the Seymour services use the GOOD old Sprinters.

Woodford
 
billyp4850 Beginner

Location: Melbourne
Right, well that train in Ararat started when the driver went into the cabin, about ten minutes before we left, and he then went back out and had a smoke, I assume he did this to give it a chance to warm up (it could quite easily have been there a few hours) before heading back to Melbourne.
 
ab123 Train Controller

Both the traction engine and aux generator can be started from inside the cabin. The aux generator can also be started from a panel on the outside or via the panel on the aux generator unit itself. Traction engine can also be started from a panel on the unit itself.
 

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