The saga of the Trainorama 44 class split wheel-sets

 
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".

If you buy from China, this is what you should expect. How about making Australian RTR in Australia instead of plss-farting around outsourcing everything to China. If it costs $150 more at the shops, so be it.
"Heihachi_73"


 

You would most probably get the same thing if it was made in Australia, everybody tries to make it as cheap as possible, but dearer to sell to you to enable a profit to be made. Personally I think you would be adding more than $150 to the price if they were made in Australia completely. And it might even be worse as this kind of thing is not done in Australia now not on a mass production method any way.

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  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
The difference between made here and made in China though is quality control. I think if something broke after a month of heavy testing, it would be revised, started from scratch, or canned entirely. We have to start sooner or later; there's a reason why we don't have Chinese-made Falcons and Commodores on the road.
  allan Chief Commissioner

Agreed, completely. Essentially, we've got what we've paid for. These locos were certainly never intended to be repaired, nor to last for a long time, much as Trainorama and their customers may have thought otherwise. What we've got, at a bargain price, is a state of the art iconic SAR loco model that will not be re-run in my lifetime, but which is less than perfect.

Would you prefer to rework the Lima models?
  Albert Chief Commissioner

China is not the problem, nor quality control. We get other models out of China that don't have drive problems.  This problem is a result of an oversight. The Chinese are good but seeing into the future is still beyond them.
  a6et Minister for Railways

The folly of saying that if its built here it has quality coming with it, yet the most parts that fail tend to be the mechanics & electricals, & how many of those small items are now made here in Australia?

I have found that going into most specialist stores almost everything is built in Asian countries & not just China, outside the modelling world many Australian iconic goods are now made overseas but said to be made to our standards, yet I wonder!

While we have some kit builders in the MR industry that do make them here, they also source some items from O/seas so we cannot escape that aspect, & even in the US the big heavy industries that used to make cast frames for steam locomotives no longer exist, & the only country that is able to fill many heavy & complex product orders go to China as they are the only country left with the capacity. Labor costs are the problem, & while the Chinese can live fairly well on the wages they get, which is much more than the African workers that Gina Rheiheart talks about, would anyone here in Australia work for those same wages as paid in China?  The answer is no, simply because it would be not much more than what volountees get. 

For me, the worst part of all of this is not just the quality control but the factories change the way they make models especially in subsequent runs, & that is unknown to the importer until problems like this happen.  Read the box of almost every product you buy these days & there is the little sign on them that says Due to changes in design & improvements, the product in the box may be different to that shown  or similar. At least the new owner of TOR is making every effort to get the issue sorted out with the gears with their new factory, even though most are out of the warranty period.

The worst part for me in any model is the increased use of ABS type plastics, especially in areas where detail items are added, many of which come off at the slightest touch, & some without even being touched, as its almost impossible to glue them back in place, I personally would much prefer the major castings that are not done in metal to revert back to the older plastics that at least can be glued back in place.
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
; there's a reason why we don't have Chinese-made Falcons and Commodores on the road.
"Heihachi_73"


And hopefully we never do......(considering how much the feds pump into the local car manufacturing industry to keep it afloat).....Anyone for a fully imported chinese made "Cherry" or "Great wall" with FREE asbestos included?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-15/chinese-cars-recalled-over-asbestos-concerns/4199630


  ahm Beginner

I am sure I am one of many skeptical about a factory solution any time soon. Not to demean Trainorama efforts which are appreciated, but getting a fix designed with minimal production, scheduled by a factory where the profit incentive would be minor, is more than unlikely in the near term. Even if those of us seeking a solution were to contribute to costs, the small production run is unlikely to be afforded priority in a factory geared to mass production.

Is it overly optimistic to assume there must be some-one in or near the Australian MR fraternity who can design, document and supervise the production of the necessary replacement components, mostly in Oz but realistically with some controlled O/S out-sourcing? Six wheel bogie configuration and drive mechanisms have been successfully produced and run for many years so why couldn't there be an adaptation of an existing mechanism with re-used components like side frames? Is there an existing mechanism that could be adapted?

The 44/930 model is a high quality model with substandard mechanics. Why is the model itself so very good and the internals so very bad?

As one of many multi loco owners I am prepared to pay a reasonable cost for a true fix. I am hoping to avoid a register of high quality static locos.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
On a point of order ahm I would not describe the internals as being 'so very bad'. The issue being discussed here seems to be relatively isolated in terms of batch and for that reason I would not be expecting a manufacturer's response in terms of replaced/redesigned parts.
  a6et Minister for Railways


I am sure I am one of many skeptical about a factory solution any time soon. Not to demean Trainorama efforts which are appreciated, but getting a fix designed with minimal production, scheduled by a factory where the profit incentive would be minor, is more than unlikely in the near term. Even if those of us seeking a solution were to contribute to costs, the small production run is unlikely to be afforded priority in a factory geared to mass production.

Is it overly optimistic to assume there must be some-one in or near the Australian MR fraternity who can design, document and supervise the production of the necessary replacement components, mostly in Oz but realistically with some controlled O/S out-sourcing? Six wheel bogie configuration and drive mechanisms have been successfully produced and run for many years so why couldn't there be an adaptation of an existing mechanism with re-used components like side frames? Is there an existing mechanism that could be adapted?

The 44/930 model is a high quality model with substandard mechanics. Why is the model itself so very good and the internals so very bad?

As one of many multi loco owners I am prepared to pay a reasonable cost for a true fix. I am hoping to avoid a register of high quality static locos.
"ahm"

I think it may be an idea to give the new owners of TOR some credit in what they are doing, as the reality is the need not do anything for customers with models out of warranty, but they have openly stated they want a fix & will not leave anyone in the lurch as a result of this.

What you need to consider in this is the likelihood of TOR doing a rerun of the 44/930 again so they would want a fix to the solution, likewise read what they have also said in that the retooling required at their new factory for the GM types, to take the new motors is also to include that they are compatible with the older main line loco's also for the 48 & variants will be the same.  Therefore it may not be that hard to make new gearings for the current 44/930 models at all, & more than likely the solution will be included with the manufacturing of their new models.

  Captain Underpants Train Controller

I am sure I am one of many skeptical about a factory solution any time soon. Not to demean Trainorama efforts which are appreciated, but getting a fix designed with minimal production, scheduled by a factory where the profit incentive would be minor, is more than unlikely in the near term. Even if those of us seeking a solution were to contribute to costs, the small production run is unlikely to be afforded priority in a factory geared to mass production.

Is it overly optimistic to assume there must be some-one in or near the Australian MR fraternity who can design, document and supervise the production of the necessary replacement components, mostly in Oz but realistically with some controlled O/S out-sourcing? Six wheel bogie configuration and drive mechanisms have been successfully produced and run for many years so why couldn't there be an adaptation of an existing mechanism with re-used components like side frames? Is there an existing mechanism that could be adapted?

The 44/930 model is a high quality model with substandard mechanics. Why is the model itself so very good and the internals so very bad?

As one of many multi loco owners I am prepared to pay a reasonable cost for a true fix. I am hoping to avoid a register of high quality static locos.
"ahm"


I say "Bring back the old Lima mechanisms"...lol
Still going strong some 25+ years later
  allan Chief Commissioner

I've de-clicked the offending bogie, and without glue! The OD of the muff is 3.96mm. I sleeved the muff with a woefully thin walled (0.15mm) brass tube with an id of 4.0mm, which, even with the wheels pressed in, closes the gap in the gear sufficiently to eliminate the click.
"allan"


It worked well in the hand, but has failed miserably on the track...

I think that the next step will be to de-power a loco, and cannibalise the wheelsets, puting the sleeved wheelsets into a dummy loco.

The going price of a "new" 930 model is around $300, up from $150 just a few weeks ago. I figure that a good dummy loco should be worth around half of that. Which will put the value of a good wheelset at $25... plus an hour or two to change out the offending wheelset.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
I think we should all be patient and wait to see what TOR does about this problem. As I said earlier, I received a call from Bob Cooke about the situation, and he is keen to find a solution. but it will not be easy to solve, as it requires a fair amount of disassembly to replace the faulty parts.

Let's give him a chance.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I think we should all be patient and wait to see what TOR does about this problem. As I said earlier, I received a call from Bob Cooke about the situation, and he is keen to find a solution. but it will not be easy to solve, as it requires a fair amount of disassembly to replace the faulty parts.

Let's give him a chance.
"TheBlacksmith"


I definately agree with this, but if anyone is so in need of a replacement before the fix, & even though its not a 930, getting a 44cl gives you the mechanism to operate.  Besides the TOR website had an update yesterday & it now shows all 930's as being sold out.
  ALCO4401 Train Controller

Location: On the Branch waiting for a train order, west of Tarana

I definately agree with this, but if anyone is so in need of a replacement before the fix, & even though its not a 930, getting a 44cl gives you the mechanism to operate. Besides the TOR website had an update yesterday & it now shows all 930's as being sold out.
"a6et"


Well I was at Bobs today and he had around 25 930's sitting on the shelf.
I didn't bother buying a 44, as I was more drawn into buying a brass D50. He also had around 50 x 44's for $150 and at least 25 x 42's for $180 each.

Regards

Paul
  a6et Minister for Railways



I definately agree with this, but if anyone is so in need of a replacement before the fix, & even though its not a 930, getting a 44cl gives you the mechanism to operate. Besides the TOR website had an update yesterday & it now shows all 930's as being sold out.
"a6et"


Well I was at Bobs today and he had around 25 930's sitting on the shelf.
I didn't bother buying a 44, as I was more drawn into buying a brass D50. He also had around 50 x 44's for $150 and at least 25 x 42's for $180 each.

Regards

Paul
"ALCO4401"


Strange or not?  I looked at their web page, & it shows them all sold out, noticed also the shop is closed all weekend as they have a stand at Liverpool, first time in a long while since the shop was not open on the W/E. IRRC, they used to have a big stand at Liverpool but when it moved to Hurstville or maybe a year or 2 earlier they did not go there & chose to open the shop all weekend.

What was the price on the 930's, still $150.00 or back to the full price as Allan in his post mentioned.

  ALCO4401 Train Controller

Location: On the Branch waiting for a train order, west of Tarana


I definately agree with this, but if anyone is so in need of a replacement before the fix, & even though its not a 930, getting a 44cl gives you the mechanism to operate. Besides the TOR website had an update yesterday & it now shows all 930's as being sold out.
"a6et"


Well I was at Bobs today and he had around 25 930's sitting on the shelf.
I didn't bother buying a 44, as I was more drawn into buying a brass D50. He also had around 50 x 44's for $150 and at least 25 x 42's for $180 each.

Regards

Paul
"ALCO4401"


Strange or not? I looked at their web page, & it shows them all sold out, noticed also the shop is closed all weekend as they have a stand at Liverpool, first time in a long while since the shop was not open on the W/E. IRRC, they used to have a big stand at Liverpool but when it moved to Hurstville or maybe a year or 2 earlier they did not go there & chose to open the shop all weekend.

What was the price on the 930's, still $150.00 or back to the full price as Allan in his post mentioned.

"a6et"


a6et,
I didnt see the price on the 930's as they don't interest me. I think that they may be at Liverpool today with a few specials.
Regards
Paul
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".


I definately agree with this, but if anyone is so in need of a replacement before the fix, & even though its not a 930, getting a 44cl gives you the mechanism to operate. Besides the TOR website had an update yesterday & it now shows all 930's as being sold out.
"a6et"


Well I was at Bobs today and he had around 25 930's sitting on the shelf.
I didn't bother buying a 44, as I was more drawn into buying a brass D50. He also had around 50 x 44's for $150 and at least 25 x 42's for $180 each.

Regards

Paul
"ALCO4401"


Strange or not? I looked at their web page, & it shows them all sold out, noticed also the shop is closed all weekend as they have a stand at Liverpool, first time in a long while since the shop was not open on the W/E. IRRC, they used to have a big stand at Liverpool but when it moved to Hurstville or maybe a year or 2 earlier they did not go there & chose to open the shop all weekend.

What was the price on the 930's, still $150.00 or back to the full price as Allan in his post mentioned.

"a6et"


 

I think that you might find that the shop and Trainorama itself are operated as two separate business's, so if Trainorama say on their web site that they are sold out then that is so at the time. The shop however may still have them in stock. Both are owned by the one person but I reckon it might be right about separate business's well on paper anyway. This is why it pays to shop around when an importer say's his models are sold out, there is bound to be a few still left at participating stores that sell these models.

 

Sold out in this case though could mean that X amount of these models has been allocated to their shop, so while not really sold as such, they are spoken for so to speak.

  a6et Minister for Railways



I definately agree with this, but if anyone is so in need of a replacement before the fix, & even though its not a 930, getting a 44cl gives you the mechanism to operate. Besides the TOR website had an update yesterday & it now shows all 930's as being sold out.
"a6et"


Well I was at Bobs today and he had around 25 930's sitting on the shelf.
I didn't bother buying a 44, as I was more drawn into buying a brass D50. He also had around 50 x 44's for $150 and at least 25 x 42's for $180 each.

Regards

Paul
"ALCO4401"


Strange or not? I looked at their web page, & it shows them all sold out, noticed also the shop is closed all weekend as they have a stand at Liverpool, first time in a long while since the shop was not open on the W/E. IRRC, they used to have a big stand at Liverpool but when it moved to Hurstville or maybe a year or 2 earlier they did not go there & chose to open the shop all weekend.

What was the price on the 930's, still $150.00 or back to the full price as Allan in his post mentioned.

"a6et"


 

I think that you might find that the shop and Trainorama itself are operated as two separate business's, so if Trainorama say on their web site that they are sold out then that is so at the time. The shop however may still have them in stock. Both are owned by the one person but I reckon it might be right about separate business's well on paper anyway. This is why it pays to shop around when an importer say's his models are sold out, there is bound to be a few still left at participating stores that sell these models.

 

Sold out in this case though could mean that X amount of these models has been allocated to their shop, so while not really sold as such, they are spoken for so to speak.

"David Peters"


At Liverpool today they had very limited amounts of their stock & all at the reduced price, including the 930 clas listed but I would say they would be all gone by now, as they were doing a fairly good trade, & I saw many of the new MHG's going off the shelves.
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
I am a member of a few Yahoo Groups and recently became aware of another Group relating to remotoring and regearing locos; so I joined it.

There was some discussion amongst the predominantly USA modellers, regarding the various Athearn and Proto2000 models which are having the same issues with clicking wheelsets etc.

I chimed-in with my 2 cents worth about the issues we have been having with the TOR 44 class.

Somebody posted a link to a NWSL enquiry form. I have now filed the enquiry and got a quick response from David Rygmyr at NWSL. I have undertaken to post over to him, one of the errant "trucks" (as they call them), so he can see if they have a suitable gear cog/muff that might suit our needs.

I will keep you posted as and when I get any response.

Roachie
  Captain Underpants Train Controller

I am a member of a few Yahoo Groups and recently became aware of another Group relating to remotoring and regearing locos; so I joined it.

There was some discussion amongst the predominantly USA modellers, regarding the various Athearn and Proto2000 models which are having the same issues with clicking wheelsets etc.

I chimed-in with my 2 cents worth about the issues we have been having with the TOR 44 class.

Somebody posted a link to a NWSL enquiry form. I have now filed the enquiry and got a quick response from David Rygmyr at NWSL. I have undertaken to post over to him, one of the errant "trucks" (as they call them), so he can see if they have a suitable gear cog/muff that might suit our needs.

I will keep you posted as and when I get any response.

Roachie
"Roachie"


Thanks Roachie on behalf of the 44 Clicker Class owners. Looking forward to hearing some feedback.
  hosk1956 Deputy Commissioner

Location: no where near gunzels
I am a member of a few Yahoo Groups and recently became aware of another Group relating to remotoring and regearing locos; so I joined it.

There was some discussion amongst the predominantly USA modellers, regarding the various Athearn and Proto2000 models which are having the same issues with clicking wheelsets etc.

I chimed-in with my 2 cents worth about the issues we have been having with the TOR 44 class.

Somebody posted a link to a NWSL enquiry form. I have now filed the enquiry and got a quick response from David Rygmyr at NWSL. I have undertaken to post over to him, one of the errant "trucks" (as they call them), so he can see if they have a suitable gear cog/muff that might suit our needs.

I will keep you posted as and when I get any response.

Roachie
"Roachie"


Thanks Roachie on behalf of the 44 Clicker Class owners. Looking forward to hearing some feedback.
"Captain Underpants"



Does that make you a "clicky" group? Mine don't click but can I join in case they do????

Wayne



  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Click go the gears boy's, click, click, click. Wild is his temper and his hands move quick.  LaughingLaughing
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
Well, I finally found the time (and a small box) to post off 2 of the "bad" 44 class bogies to NWSL in the USA.

I will wait to see what Dave Rygmyr thinks of our situation and post any response I receive on here.

Fingers crossed.

Roachie
  design8027 Station Staff


Good luck to everyone searching for a solution. Great to see people sharing idea's. I have six 44s that are running OK so far but I don't relish the idea of replacing wheelsets. I am one of the one's waiting for another batch, early and late 44s in the proper reverse and an early 44 in candy. Contrary to some, candy is popular with modellers.

Stephen.

  drib72 Station Staff

Location: Under the radar
So are we any closer to a solution to the problem yet??

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