The saga of the Trainorama 44 class split wheel-sets

 
  gw0071 Deputy Commissioner

What was wrong with the previous radiant, uplifting, customer focused staff?

Regardless it would be great to have a fix for this issue. They're a great loco, especially at current pricing

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  a6et Minister for Railways

What was wrong with the previous radiant, uplifting, customer focused staff? Regardless it would be great to have a fix for this issue. They're a great loco, especially at current pricing
"gw0071"


My point being that there was a change, & while I got on quite well with all of the previous staff members, & had no issues, I know of those with the opposite view.
  gw0071 Deputy Commissioner

I was being sarcastic - I never had any issues either mostly due to knowing what I was after whenever I walked through the door. On average though it was never the most welcoming or up-lifting environment to shop in considering it's products are meant to encourage relaxation and joy. Time will tell whether it has changed under new management when I next visit

On topic and ironically I had to stop myself from buying a Traino 44 each time I shopped. This thread has helped
  a6et Minister for Railways

I was being sarcastic - I never had any issues either mostly due to knowing what I was after whenever I walked through the door. On average though it was never the most welcoming or up-lifting environment to shop in considering it's products are meant to encourage relaxation and joy. Time will tell whether it has changed under new management when I next visit On topic and ironically I had to stop myself from buying a Traino 44 each time I shopped. This thread has helped
"gw0071"


I think in many ways thats the best way to be with most shops, go in for what you want & go out.  I always however had a good relationship with the old team & as a result I had no issues, although at times a bit dry, I enjoyed being able to talk to them & it certainly makes a difference when going to the shop & not seeing any of the old team there.

However, on meeting the new shop people I have to say that they are very friendly & greet people as they walk in off the street with a good morning/afternoon & welcome to Bob's Hobbies, when leaving they farewell everyone with a thanks for coming & hope to see you soon. That is PR from anyones opinion.

As I mentioned the staff there were very open about problems & working very much to re-establish the shop & imported models, & they are all determined to get through the current saga's, & this was before this 44cl issue came up.

I got a 44 at the $150.00 & its being retroed back to as delivered in 1957, & not far off being painted.  I need a decoder to get the model running which I may do very soon, even if the body is not finished & see how it is, if a problem with clicking I will inform them about it, & look forward to BBB getting back from discussions with the manufacturer he is now using.

There has been a post on AMR that says that TOR are working towards a fix at least that is something that we all can hope & look forward to.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

I took one of my 42's apart (this is the first time this loco has touched fresh air outside of China).

The gears are the same width as the 44 however there is not as much play in the tranfer gears as depicted by Blacksmith.

A poor shot of the 42 class gears


The drive gear (the one in BS's photo the arrow is pointing to) still has enough play in the 42 to cause problems later in life but the mis-alignment is not a servere as the 44 BS posted. 
"Albert"


I have 2 Trainorama 44's and a 42. None have had any problems as discussed in this thread, and I am unaware of any one else I know having these troubles, so I suspect it is only a small percentage of dud models out of tens of thousands manufactured by this factory. It's basically the same mechanism used by Austrains, again most of which have had no trouble with gears of this width wearing out. I agree the wheel end play is excessive and with my models I minimise the end play on the outer axles as a modification to improve centring of the model allowing more reliable coupling. One side effect of doing this is it solves the gear miss alignment issue being discussed. The end play can be decreased without pulling apart anything by using Kadee fibre washers, with a section cut out with a knife, so they can be slipped over the axles between the wheel and bearing. Decreasing the end play on all wheels should not be a problem on sharp curves according to my calculations.

Terry Flynn

AMRA standards http://www.amra.asn.au/standards.htm

http://angelfire.com/clone/rail/index.html

H0 wagon weight and locomotive tractive effort estimates

DC control circuit diagrams

H0 scale track and wheel standards

Any scale track standard and wheel spread sheet



  snerd Station Master

Location: BNE
I have 2 Trainorama 44's and a 42. None have had any problems as discussed in this thread, and I am unaware of any one else I know having these troubles, so I suspect it is only a small percentage of dud models out of tens of thousands manufactured by this factory.
"NSWGR1855"


In my brief time as a member of the SMRC, I recall a lot of clicking 44's running around, and the grumbling of the owners. I didn't think anything of it until I read this thread! Definitely something amiss here.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
One side effect of doing this is it solves the gear miss alignment issue being discussed. The end play can be decreased without pulling apart anything by using Kadee fibre washers, with a section cut out with a knife, so they can be slipped over the axles between the wheel and bearing. Decreasing the end play on all wheels should not be a problem on sharp curves according to my calculations.

Terry Flynn
"NSWGR1855"


Not quite, the end play that is most serious is on the intermediate idler gears, not the drive axles. And that is not easily solved with washers. The difference between the 44 Class bogies and the Austrains ones are the Austrains bogies do not have this end play and the gears appear to be slightly wider.

And bear in mind that the clicking does not appear to show up until you load the locomtive up with a decent train hanging off it, or take it up a grade.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Okay, so I pulled apart a TrainOrama S Class bogie, photographed it and promptly forgot to upload the shots... This morning I was reminded of this by a certain metal worker to the Californian stars.

Incidentally, the taking apart of the bogie was very straight forward, and that was without remembering that I had an exploded diagram in the bottom of the box.

The good news is, the play in the S Class bogie is minimised about as much as you could hope for, in fact there is effectively no lateral movement in the idler gears at all.

The bad news is, the teeth on the gears are still nowhere near as wide as they could be.

Judge for yourselves (click em for bigger size).

The bogie as is:
[img]http://noarail.com/members2/d/46772-2/TrainOrama+S+Class+Bogie.JPG[/img]

Bogie with wheelsets displaced to the maximum 'down' position.
[img]http://noarail.com/members2/d/46766-2/TrainOrama+S+Class+Bogie+-+Wheelset+Displaced+Maximum+Down.JPG[/img]

Bogie with wheelsets displaced to the maximum 'up' position.
[img]http://noarail.com/members2/d/46769-2/TrainOrama+S+Class+Bogie+-+Wheelset+Displaced+Maximum+Up.JPG[/img]
  a6et Minister for Railways

Okay, so I pulled apart a TrainOrama S Class bogie, photographed it and promptly forgot to upload the shots... This morning I was reminded of this by a certain metal worker to the Californian stars.

Incidentally, the taking apart of the bogie was very straight forward, and that was without remembering that I had an exploded diagram in the bottom of the box.

The good news is, the play in the S Class bogie is minimised about as much as you could hope for, in fact there is effectively no lateral movement in the idler gears at all.

The bad news is, the teeth on the gears are still nowhere near as wide as they could be.

Judge for yourselves (click em for bigger size).

The bogie as is:
[img]http://noarail.com/members2/d/46772-2/TrainOrama+S+Class+Bogie.JPG[/img]

Bogie with wheelsets displaced to the maximum 'down' position.
[img]http://noarail.com/members2/d/46766-2/TrainOrama+S+Class+Bogie+-+Wheelset+Displaced+Maximum+Down.JPG[/img]

Bogie with wheelsets displaced to the maximum 'up' position.
[img]http://noarail.com/members2/d/46769-2/TrainOrama+S+Class+Bogie+-+Wheelset+Displaced+Maximum+Up.JPG[/img]
"Aaron"


Aaron

interesting, & thanks however I cannot get the photos to come up, just the little red x in a box
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
God damn permissions! I'll fix it when I get home.
  allan Chief Commissioner

OK. I've just "click-proofed" a 930. Itsa not a big deal. About a half hour per bogie...

The bogies are not especially hard to disassemble - there's no need for a 2lb gimpy nor a 1" cold chisel - a pair of semi-long nosed pliers and a big jewellers' screwdriver did the deed in less than a minute.

Fit a few spacers, and its about as good as you'll get, without replacement gears of rather better design (and I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for them).
  PeltonPinch Locomotive Fireman

OK. I've just "click-proofed" a 930. Itsa not a big deal. About a half hour per bogie...

The bogies are not especially hard to disassemble - there's no need for a 2lb gimpy nor a 1" cold chisel - a pair of semi-long nosed pliers and a big jewellers' screwdriver did the deed in less than a minute.

Fit a few spacers, and its about as good as you'll get, without replacement gears of rather better design (and I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for them).
"allan"


Great News! Though, if you don't mind me asking,

What did you use for spacers?

And did you open the bogie from the bottom whilst still in the chassis, or remove the body shell and the bogies from the chassis?
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Okay, so I pulled apart a TrainOrama S Class bogie, photographed it and promptly forgot to upload the shots... This morning I was reminded of this by a certain metal worker to the Californian stars.

Incidentally, the taking apart of the bogie was very straight forward, and that was without remembering that I had an exploded diagram in the bottom of the box.

The good news is, the play in the S Class bogie is minimised about as much as you could hope for, in fact there is effectively no lateral movement in the idler gears at all.

The bad news is, the teeth on the gears are still nowhere near as wide as they could be.

Judge for yourselves (click em for bigger size).

The bogie as is:
[img]http://noarail.com/members2/d/46772-2/TrainOrama+S+Class+Bogie.JPG[/img]

Bogie with wheelsets displaced to the maximum 'down' position.
[img]http://noarail.com/members2/d/46766-2/TrainOrama+S+Class+Bogie+-+Wheelset+Displaced+Maximum+Down.JPG[/img]

Bogie with wheelsets displaced to the maximum 'up' position.
[img]http://noarail.com/members2/d/46769-2/TrainOrama+S+Class+Bogie+-+Wheelset+Displaced+Maximum+Up.JPG[/img]
"Aaron"


Aaron

interesting, & thanks however I cannot get the photos to come up, just the little red x in a box
"a6et"


Should be fixed.
  allan Chief Commissioner

OK. I've just "click-proofed" a 930. Itsa not a big deal. About a half hour per bogie...

The bogies are not especially hard to disassemble - there's no need for a 2lb gimpy nor a 1" cold chisel - a pair of semi-long nosed pliers and a big jewellers' screwdriver did the deed in less than a minute.

Fit a few spacers, and its about as good as you'll get, without replacement gears of rather better design (and I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for them).
"allan"


Great News! Though, if you don't mind me asking,

What did you use for spacers?

And did you open the bogie from the bottom whilst still in the chassis, or remove the body shell and the bogies from the chassis?
"PeltonPinch"


OK. Trust me, it's easier to do than to explain...

The bogies have to come out of the chassis for disassembly, but the shell has to come off to shorten the couplers and fit DCC anyway.

To remove the bogies, expose the ends of the gear towers (remove the cab detail and headlight and associated wiring from the front), undo the bogie wiring from the pcb, and flip off the worm gear retainer with a small screw driver - just like the old Athearn... You'll have to take the speakers out to get it all back together, but that is no big deal.

To remove the keeper plate/ sideframes, get a good grip on the bogie, bottom up, and jam a large Jewellers' screwdriver (that's not a Stanley screwdriver...) between one end of the keeper plate and the bogie gearbox, pushing the keeper plate up. With a small pair of long nosed pliers, squeeze each pair of back retaining clips in turn, beginning at the end closest to your screwdriver. The keeper plate will pop off!

There's nothing holding the wheelsets in, now, and they will be in the way, so remove them, and put them aside.

Now is a good time to have a play with the gears on their axles, to see where the deficiencies are in the design. There are two groups of three gears visible from below. Those under the gear tower (which I'll call the "back group") have a lot less play in them than the others (which, surprisingly, I'm sure, I'll call the "front group").

The gear box is held together with a couple of screws: remove them, and lever the sides apart. The gear axles are fixed into one of the sides, which makes life easier.

Lift the gears of the back group off their axles - there are four gears. Only one needs a spacer. I used a piece of 0.5mm styrene sheet, drilled 2.0mm, under the middle gear. Reassemble this group, which should be pretty much in line, now.

Go to the front group, the real problem group, with a lot more inherent slop. I put washers under each of these gears. The washers that I used were the washers that come with Kadee 20 series couplers, 0.95mm thick, 4.1mm od, 2.0mm id. The washers may be a tad too thick, as I had to back off the screw holding the gearbox together at that end. Note, too, that the middle gear on each end is marginally dished, so there is a little room for adjustment.

The "muffler" (I do so like old words with new meanings...) on the centre wheelset is the link between the the two gear groups. Screw the gearbox halves back together, and drop in the centre wheelset. The two gear groups are still not perfectly aligned, but they do roll freely, and there is no slop.

Reassembly is staightforward, if not simple.

OK. That's my contribution. I doubt that it is perfect, and expect refinement from others.

Posted with the aid of a very inexpensive box of port! Any inaccuracies may be attributed to the contents of the said box.



  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
The "muffler" (I do so like old words with new meanings...) on the centre wheelset is the link between the the two gear groups. Screw the gearbox halves back together, and drop in the centre wheelset. The two gear groups are still not perfectly aligned, but they do roll freely, and there is no slop.

Posted with the aid of a very inexpensive box of port! Any inaccuracies may be attributed to the contents of the said box.

"allan"


It is actually 'muff', as in the form of accessory once worn by women, a tube of fur you poked your hands into from each end to keep the hands warm. In the model railway case, the stub axles take the place of the hands.

And I did that without a case of port.....
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Okay, so I pulled apart a TrainOrama S Class bogie, photographed it and promptly forgot to upload the shots... This morning I was reminded of this by a certain metal worker to the Californian stars.

Incidentally, the taking apart of the bogie was very straight forward, and that was without remembering that I had an exploded diagram in the bottom of the box.

The good news is, the play in the S Class bogie is minimised about as much as you could hope for, in fact there is effectively no lateral movement in the idler gears at all.

The bad news is, the teeth on the gears are still nowhere near as wide as they could be.

Judge for yourselves (click em for bigger size).

The bogie as is:
[img]http://noarail.com/members2/d/46772-2/TrainOrama+S+Class+Bogie.JPG[/img]

Bogie with wheelsets displaced to the maximum 'down' position.
[img]http://noarail.com/members2/d/46766-2/TrainOrama+S+Class+Bogie+-+Wheelset+Displaced+Maximum+Down.JPG[/img]

Bogie with wheelsets displaced to the maximum 'up' position.
[img]http://noarail.com/members2/d/46769-2/TrainOrama+S+Class+Bogie+-+Wheelset+Displaced+Maximum+Up.JPG[/img]

Aaron

"Aaron"


Aron, your pictures show the gear meshing and width are correct. The gears could be made wider but experience shows there is no need for wider gears, for example Lima pancake motors have gears as narrow as 1mm, yet there are plenty of 40 year old Lima models with gears that are still OK. Thus the Trainorama S class gears are correctly designed, however the axle end play is excessive as is the steam roller width of the wheels.

Terry Flynn

AMRA standards http://www.amra.asn.au/standards.htm

http://angelfire.com/clone/rail/index.html

H0 wagon weight and locomotive tractive effort estimates

DC control circuit diagrams

H0 scale track and wheel standards

Any scale track standard and wheel spread sheet





  a6et Minister for Railways

Okay, so I pulled apart a TrainOrama S Class bogie, photographed it and promptly forgot to upload the shots... This morning I was reminded of this by a certain metal worker to the Californian stars.

Incidentally, the taking apart of the bogie was very straight forward, and that was without remembering that I had an exploded diagram in the bottom of the box.

The good news is, the play in the S Class bogie is minimised about as much as you could hope for, in fact there is effectively no lateral movement in the idler gears at all.

The bad news is, the teeth on the gears are still nowhere near as wide as they could be.

Judge for yourselves (click em for bigger size).

The bogie as is:
[img]http://noarail.com/members2/d/46772-2/TrainOrama+S+Class+Bogie.JPG[/img]

Bogie with wheelsets displaced to the maximum 'down' position.
[img]http://noarail.com/members2/d/46766-2/TrainOrama+S+Class+Bogie+-+Wheelset+Displaced+Maximum+Down.JPG[/img]

Bogie with wheelsets displaced to the maximum 'up' position.
[img]http://noarail.com/members2/d/46769-2/TrainOrama+S+Class+Bogie+-+Wheelset+Displaced+Maximum+Up.JPG[/img]

Aaron

"Aaron"


Aron, your pictures show the gear meshing and width are correct. The gears could be made wider but experience shows there is no need for wider gears, for example Lima pancake motors have gears as narrow as 1mm, yet there are plenty of 40 year old Lima models with gears that are still OK. Thus the Trainorama S class gears are correctly designed, however the axle end play is excessive as is the steam roller width of the wheels.

Terry Flynn

AMRA standards http://www.amra.asn.au/standards.htm

http://angelfire.com/clone/rail/index.html

H0 wagon weight and locomotive tractive effort estimates

DC control circuit diagrams

H0 scale track and wheel standards

Any scale track standard and wheel spread sheet




"NSWGR1855"

So once again the problem is the steam roller wheels.

When I think on that, I would love to be working on a steam roller using those wheels & be paid by the hour, problem is that the wheels would destroy all the work that it leaves behind/
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
The bad news is, the teeth on the gears are still nowhere near as wide as they could be.
"Aaron"


Aron, your pictures show the gear meshing and width are correct. The gears could be made wider but experience shows there is no need for wider gears, for example Lima pancake motors have gears as narrow as 1mm, yet there are plenty of 40 year old Lima models with gears that are still OK. Thus the Trainorama S class gears are correctly designed, however the axle end play is excessive as is the steam roller width of the wheels.

Terry Flynn

AMRA standards http://www.amra.asn.au/standards.htm

http://angelfire.com/clone/rail/index.html

H0 wagon weight and locomotive tractive effort estimates

DC control circuit diagrams

H0 scale track and wheel standards

Any scale track standard and wheel spread sheet




"NSWGR1855"


I said the gears are not as wide as they could be, that is to say they could be wider, there's a lot of spare space in the tower and I do not need the bogies to convey air, so it may as well contain more gear material...

The thin gears in old Lima models are still going strong, but they were about as wide as they could be and were not helical cut (which induces thrust into the shaft) nor allowed any play, hence maintaining continuous mesh.
  PeltonPinch Locomotive Fireman

[quote="allan"][quote="PeltonPinch"][quote="allan"]

OK. That's my contribution. I doubt that it is perfect, and expect refinement from others.

Posted with the aid of a very inexpensive box of port! Any inaccuracies may be attributed to the contents of the said box.


[/quote]


Thanks very much for that, I'll give it a go when I can & see if I can add to the knowledge.....
  james13 Chief Commissioner

Location: At the Skunk Works
Bloody steam roller wheels, we've been down this road before but I will do it again, I need a laugh.





But now on the serious side, I have two 930's and neither have this problem. And talking about the width of the gears, Auscision wins, their idler gears are the width of the gearbox.
  allan Chief Commissioner

I've just pulled down a double-ended 930 that has the dreaded "click". In this case, it is undoubtedly the consequence of a full width split in the "muff". The problem was exacerbated by the stub axle on one side being pressed past the flash at the parting line at the inside "centre" of the muff, which I suspect to be an assembly issue. I say "centre", though the parting line is off-centre, to the long muff side.

Ordinary as the design of the gears may be, there is no sign of deterioration of the gear teeth.

The split in the muff causes no problem, click-wise, if the wheels are in gauge, but press one stub axle past the mould parting line flash, and it's on! Of course, the split in the muff allows the stub axles to rotate freely within the muff, so that the wheelset contributes nothing to the pulling power of the loco, and because the stub axles are free to move in and out, the wheel gauge will change, possibly leading to derailments.

My proposed fix is to degrease the three parts of the wheelset, and to glue the parts into place with gel superglue, and return the offending wheelset to its original position in the bogie, at the middle (where, if the stub axles work loose again, the chance of causing derailments is at its least).
  allan Chief Commissioner

I've de-clicked the offending bogie, and without glue! The OD of the muff is 3.96mm. I sleeved the muff with a woefully thin walled (0.15mm)  brass tube with an id of 4.0mm, which, even with the wheels pressed in, closes the gap in the gear sufficiently to eliminate the click. The thin wall is necessary because the muff has to run inside a cut-out in the bogie moulding.

The tube was very difficult to cut, and keep round at the same time. I finished up putting it over a mandrel (a 4.0mm drill bit), and cutting it in a lathe - a very small 12v lathe. The material came from my odds and sods box, and was originally part of a telescoping antenna.


  anzac1959 Chief Commissioner

I've de-clicked the offending bogie, and without glue! The OD of the muff is 3.96mm. I sleeved the muff with a woefully thin walled (0.15mm) brass tube with an id of 4.0mm, which, even with the wheels pressed in, closes the gap in the gear sufficiently to eliminate the click. The thin wall is necessary because the muff has to run inside a cut-out in the bogie moulding.

The tube was very difficult to cut, and keep round at the same time. I finished up putting it over a mandrel (a 4.0mm drill bit), and cutting it in a lathe - a very small 12v lathe. The material came from my odds and sods box, and was originally part of a telescoping antenna.

"allan"


just a thought why dont you push the muff into the tube first then part it off,sorry cut it off
cheers anzac (Fitter and machinist)
  allan Chief Commissioner

The muff is a thermoplastic. The last thing that I want to do is compromise the plastic by warming it up.

And my "profession"? I cut tube... mountains of it!
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
If you buy from China, this is what you should expect. How about making Australian RTR in Australia instead of plss-farting around outsourcing everything to China. If it costs $150 more at the shops, so be it.

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